Dd staying up all night and mental health

[Sara2000]

Sorry this will be long :Dd aged aged 14 has got into a habit of staying up all night talking to her online friends and gaming. I have seen her online friends and know they are her age so that bit I am not worried about. This has been going on since the school holidays started. We switch the wifi off at about 3, but she then talks to them on her phone. Perhaps we were stupid to agree to this but after months of no school where she has only seen her school friends in person once we wanted her to have a chance to do what she wanted during the holidays. She has no interest in shopping or going out as she just wants to game. We agreed with her that she would gradually reset from this weekend so that she is in some sort of normal sleep pattern by Thursday when she returns to school.Neither DH nor I have felt completely comfortable with her staying up all night as shes increasingly become detached from the family given she is going to bed as we get up, waking up at about 4 in the afternoon and then not eating at 'normal' times but we work
full time at home so we have nothing else to offer her to do in the day (according to her). Gone af
Rethe days where she wants to day trips. However, we knew there was a time limit when things needed to return to normal.

But last night (or 1 this morning ) the whole situation came to a head. Dd announced that she wants to catch the train on Monday to visit one of these friends who lives an hour from us. We said no as we know nothing about the family or where she will be. She will be 15 in a few weeks but is anxious about everything.ie she refuses to go into our local town as there are 'too many people'. But suddenly she has planned out how to travel to the other side of London on 3 trains. She went berserk and said we were over protective and were bad parents etc.

Our feelings about her staying up all night , the fact we never see her (she doesnt even eat with us now) came up and we switched the wifi off at 1 and took her phone. I rarely check her phone these days as she hates it and we have spent alot of time talking about appropriate messages etc and never had issues. I did check it last night though and it was fine except where she was arranging this visit and slagging us off for not letting her go!

I went into her room to speak to her to try and explain we were just concerned about her travelling so far away during covid to a place she had never been when we dont know the people and she wont even get a bus alone to our local town. She was hyperventilating as she was so upset and said she didnt trust me and we were stifling and over protective. 2 years ago she was self harming and she bought up the fact that she didnt trust me because I had told her dad when she asked me not too. She said she has hated me since and will never trust me again. I said I felt I couldn't not share that with DH as I would want to know if it was the other way round. She also said she needs her online friends as they are the only people she can speak to and she would never tell me anything again. I found that whole time when she was self harming terrifying. Self harm was something I didnt understand and had no idea what to do..The school were useless so we got her referred to CAMHs who tested her for autism and she came out as having "traits '. We also paid for private counselling but she hated it so we cancelled. I strongly suspect she does have ASD and that her 'special interest' is gaming and this group of girls she has made friends with. She also said she thinks she has ADHD and that she doesnt feel normal and wants it be tested. She said she has no interest in normal term stuffand I compare her. I thought we had moved on since the self harming and put it behind us but she said last night she cant even look at photos of herself from that time and she feels like she is going back there but she won't talk to me about it as she doesnt trust me.

We left it as the wifi going off and went to bed but I have been awake since 5 thinking what to do next.

How do I get her to talk to me about her feelings ? How do I build the trust up again that she says has gone?

Would you let her go to this friends? I could drive her there but it would take 4 hour
s seeing as I would have to drive there and back twice. I would only do this once I had 'met'the parents on a video call. I have met the friend on these calls several times including last night.

I just dont know where to start.

I think we are going to have a challenge returning to school as her social anxiety has escalated over the last 6 months. She keeps telling me 'everyone's stays up all night but my worry is the total lack of socialising in real life. Shes just obsessed with her online friends.

Sorry for the length.

Ohhhhh the breaking of trust around the self harm was a real error, that will be hard to come back from. I think trying to justify it to her will likely have made it worse, it's not really justifiable.

I'd start by sitting her down and properly apologising. Don't try and make excuses, tell her it was wrong and you're sorry and you understand that it makes it hard for her to trust you, but you're not giving up on her.

Then RE the trip - why don't you or your DH do drop off/pick up?

Keep going with the tech ground rules too.

Yes I would drive her there and back again.

She's made friends with these girls and if it was me, I'd be pleased that they were going to have an actual real life friendship.

I'd also start talking to her about how she needs to start resetting her body clock for going back to school.

Yes I know I made a mistake on the self harm thing. But I felt I had to tell DH and at the time I needed someone to help work out what the hell to do. She also told me she was suicidal at that time which I didn't she was and cant even look at photos of herself at that age. Do I refer back to CAMHs?

Yes I suppose the real life friendship is a good thing. Maybe we can all go there on Monday and DH and I can go out there while shes at the girls house. I certainly dont want to drive for 4 hours unless I need to.

How the hell do I get the trust back ? I'm now worried that her mental health is far worse than I thought as I really felt we had moved on from all that.

Did she get any actual help after the self harm?

I think it WAS appropriate to tell dh, maybe you could have been more clear that you were going to, but parents don't always get things right. Your boundaries are correct, trust yourselves. She will get in a pickle if she tries that journey without practising shorter ones first.
She will rail against you but as parents you need to set boundaries, help her have a good routine and protect her. Keep going.

Unfortunately, you may have to accept that the trust is gone, at least for now. My mother did pretty much the same thing to me and it took almost a decade for me to forgive her for going behind my back like that.

Ohhhhh the breaking of trust around the self harm was a real error, that will be hard to come back from. I think trying to justify it to her will likely have made it worse, it's not really justifiable.

Actually I think it is justifiable, I think at almost 15 she would be able to understand that this was something huge and you needed help, help from someone who is hopefully your best friend (your Dh) wouldn't your DD turn to a best friend for help with something?

I volunteer in a primary school and if a child discloses to me I have to refer it to the designated safeguard lead and in the vast majority of cases it then gets referred on higher up to the police or social services. So before a child discloses if they ask me to keep it a secret I have to tell them that I will need help, from a "friend".

She went berserk and said we were over protective and were bad parents I wouldn't allow my almost 15 year old to do this either by herself on public transport, not with Covid and not to a family I had never met. Who else is at the house? I don't think you are bad parents, you are showing that you care about your DD, worry about her safety and mental health. Could you drive her and kill time in your car rather than driving back? How long was she planning on being there? If it went pear shaped and you had to get her, would she be able to cope for an hour or is she the type to bolt out the house without having a plan of where to go?

I completely agree she does need boundaries and getting her back into a school day rhythm is a good idea, getting her ready to go back to school.

she wont even get a bus alone to our local town. She was hyperventilating do you think the reality of what she was actually going to do may have had something to do with the reaction? That it all sounds good on paper but the actual 3 trains across London is very daunting for her?

I'm not sure that you did make a mistake around talking to DH about self-harm. Like mental health care professionals do, I think you need to have a conversation about the fact that although you deeply respect her privacy you need to be able to share information when it comes to matters of personal safety. Try and set some clear groundrules so that she knows what will and won't be shared.

Although trust is at a low ebb now, I wouldn't be surprised if, at some level, she is still very open to the idea of trusting you and actively seeking help from you. So hang on in there. Keep offering help, keep trusting in the fact that she needs you.

It does sound like she needs some continuing professional help. Another referral to CAMHS for example. You can't do this alone.

Thank you.

Yes she did get help for self harm. We paid for private counselling but she refused to go after a few sessions and seemed to better by then. It was a big shock to hear that she was suicidal back then as I didnt know that at the time. We also took her to CAMHS who referred for for an ASD assessment. I keep thinking that may be the issue , she has sensory issues around touch and noise, has terrible social anxiety that cripples her. She has seen her school friends once since March and came back very stressed as they went somewhere very busy which she hates. Theres a girl who lives over the road who I see going out with her friends everyday . It makes me so sad as I wish DD had that. When she tells me 'everyone stays up' I tell her they dont because I see this girl over the road everyday going out . She says I am comparing her but I am trying to show her what she is saying is not the case. She says she is not like kids her age as she finds them boring. She doesnt want to talk about boys, have a boyfriend, take drugs or drink and that I should be happy about that. All she wants to do is game with these girls.

Ok,I am going to take her on monday once I have spoken to the parents.

Can you not all go on public transport? Maybe not as it seems to cost a million pounds! I did that when my dd started getting it by herself. We made the same journey but I pretended I didn't know her. So I was there but it was like I wasn't.

I told her which side of the train to sit on so she could see the stations and told her to keep an eye on the time so she knew roughly when to get up.

You could also see if you can spark some interest in where she is going. Get her to look at the station on google mapsand think about where it is in relation to where she is going with this friend. Get some idea of the town or city layout. What there is to do and see. That's what grown ups do. They don't just get off a train in York and bumble around.

This trip for her is not just about the journey though. You do need to be nearby in case she needs anything.

@SavoyCabbage

Can you not all go on public transport? Maybe not as it seems to cost a million pounds! I did that when my dd started getting it by herself. We made the same journey but I pretended I didn't know her. So I was there but it was like I wasn't.

I told her which side of the train to sit on so she could see the stations and told her to keep an eye on the time so she knew roughly when to get up.

You could also see if you can spark some interest in where she is going. Get her to look at the station on google mapsand think about where it is in relation to where she is going with this friend. Get some idea of the town or city layout. What there is to do and see. That's what grown ups do. They don't just get off a train in York and bumble around.

This trip for her is not just about the journey though. You do need to be nearby in case she needs anything.

This is EXCELLENT advice.

Also, I don't think you are being overprotective about the three-train-ride trip across London. Is it possible that the only thing that makes her feel confident that she can manage this trip is the knowledge that you are prohibiting it? It is easier for her to blame the im;possibility of the trip on your overprotectiveness, rhather than on her own anxiety and lack of travel experience.

The more desperately afraid she is of the world in general, the more comforting it is for her to recoil from her fears and take comfort in the safe and familiar battle with a parent.

Could you explore this by discussing some sort of travel compromise? What arrangements would you both feel happy with - for example driving her part of the way so that she only has to take one train?

I don't think you did the wrong thing telling your SH about the self harm. As you say, can you imagine if he hadn't told you? Also, you needed support yourself to deal with it. I think where you might have gone a little wrong there was how she found out her dad knew, but that's fine now. I think with that you just have to say you are a family and you work together. Ultimately she will be able to see you are trying to help her and saying she didn't trust you was just her trying to get at you when you weren't letting her to go off by herself. She saw you as not trusting her, where as actually you could see the dangers she couldn't. (I've lost count of the times I've told my DC it's not them I don't trust it's other road users/people I've never met).

You're doing the right thing taking her, I'm glad she's letting you.

When my DD goes to places without me I ask her to use the Life 360 app so I can track where she is. Oddly she's perfectly fine with my tracking her but will panic if I take her phone (which I've started to point out is actually my which I pay for but let her use because I'm nice like that)

You sound like a really lovely mum OP. I hope I your DD has a nice time on Monday.

Personally I would also hover in the area incase your DD wants to come home - and COVID is the perfect excuse not to use public transport atm.

Breaking trust re self harm was NOT an error. It was the right thing to do. Her dad had a right to know, and a child cannot rule the roost, especially about something so important.

OP to clarify - when you told her dad about the self harm thing did you just do it, or did you talk it through with her first?

To be honest I dont remember . She claims I told him the day after but I donr think I did and I'm pretty certain I said I had to do it. But it was nearly 2 years ago so wmeven if I did remember what happened she has a different perspective.

You had several conversations with your child and your spouse about self harm and you don't remember them?

Hi, your story resonates with me as my DD self harmed at that age, and had/still has very high levels of Social Anxiety. She was finally diagnosed with ASD at 17. I agree with others that you were right to tell your DH about the self harm. You needed the support and you need to work together as a family when it comes to matters of safety. At her lowest, our DD also felt she could not trust me because she felt I was invading her privacy. She is now mature enough to understand the pressure I and my DH were under and that we were doing our best to support her. So I think you are doing all the right things in supporting her,. explaining your position and trying to set some boundaries. I also think driving her and remaining in the area is the best compromise. Good luck.

My sons a similar age.

He spends far too long gaming but we have basic boundaries which help a little.

During the holidays switch off was midnight and he must eat dinner with us. His phone also leaves his room at switch off time.

My daughter once wanted to meet online friends. I dropped her off, met the friends then collected her a while later. I think this is a suitable compromise where really he could be meeting anyone.

@sayitagainwhydontyou. I meant I don't remember the specific conversation of when and how i told DH about the self harming. It was nearly 2 years ago. Dd claims I told him the next day, but I dont think that I did. But its a moot point if that's what she beleives.

Anyway, we have made some progress. I apologised for breaking her trust but said I needed support myself and felt DH had a right to know. There are certain things I will always feel I cant hide from DH such as this but I would ensure she agreed when he should be told in future. She opened up a bit more about how she was feeling and wants to have a test for ADHD. I cant see any reason for that but will look into it..I think she needs to get back to school and see how things go with being forced to keep a better sleep pattern and routine. I also have a book to work on with her for teens with social anxiety and we have told her we can take her on Monday. We have also agreed on a plan where the wifi gets switched off earlier each night as we get closer to her return to school.

Thank you for your supportive posts. Its tough being a parent and as much as you don't want to make mistakes you do.

First take the phone away to leave on landing from 10, then turn off the wifi. Poor sleep is the worst thing for mental health. Dont agree on a 'plan'-you are the parent and she doesnt feel secure. You making rules will make her feel safe.
No negotiating travel. Yes she will moan to friends. Thats normal. Teens dont have your back or any loyalty to parents. That is part of learning independence.
Second keeping secrets about self harm is dangerous but you should have said this at the time.
Third, start a strict routine. No staying in bedrooms all day. Walks every afternoon. Regular meals shower and clean clothes.
No kid shouls be up all night when their parents are asleep.
Emotionally she will swing and have anxiety. She needs you to take control and be constant. Dont negotiate, set safe and predictable boundaries as you would from a toddler.
If she tries to manipulate these stay firm.
Sounds harsh but I was that girl. The 'hating you' for parenting is part of the angst. It will come through the other side eventually.

If you can afford it, go private for an assessment for ASD and ADHD. NHS waiting lists are horrendous (e.g. 2yrs ) and the understanding of female traits for these conditions is poor. You don't have the luxury of waiting. The burden on mental health is huge.

It could make a huge difference for her if a diagnosis is made. Don't let her struggle. It's not just the pragmatic issues, but the development of self-understanding, social strategies, and dealing with life generally.

@blimppy. I strongly suspect DD has ASD. She had an ADOS assessment done but didnt meet the threshold for diagnosis
Did your daughter have a DISCO assessment as that's meant to be better for assessing girls? I have wondered about going back about it.

Dd has always struggled socially, never really part of a group at primary school and said she used to be scared of being in the playground. We had a rough time in year 6 where she was socially isolated and the school were useless..She won"t talk about primary school at all and has lost touch with everyone.Since secondary school things have improved and shes part of a lovely group of girls, but she says she's not that keen on them as they talk about stuff shes not interested in such as make up and dresses. I'd say shes on the edge of the group.She has seen these friends once since March and had no interest in seeing them although she does message them daily. Interestingly, yesterday she told me that she feels soemthing isnt right as she always has to be 'in control' of friendships. I said that could be her social anxiety which I know she suffers from as she finds socialising 'exhausting '. Her online friends are who she considers her proper friends and she confides in.

She also has loads of sensory issues around noise and touch in particular. If you touch her arm she rubs it to get "the feeling away'.

She says she finds it difficult to focus if she makes a mistake. She said if she writes a word and the letter isn't perfect then she will scribble the whole word out and redo it until its perfect. She also said when she gets stressed at school she wants to punch the person next to her and run out of the room (she doesnt do this though) but she lines her pens in a specific order.

But the biggest problem is the social anxiety. When she came back from the one time she saw her friends she was so stressed she had a headache and her shoulders were scrunched up and painful. That was because they went to a supermarket she didnt know and then sat in a large group in a park. She hated going to places she doesnt know or where its busy. But oddly we did both of those things on holiday and she was fine. Or at least seemed to be.

When she comes home from school she has to go to her room as she says school 'wears her down'.

Does any of this sound familiar to you @blimppy..