Should we stand back and let her fail?

[krustykittens]

My teenage daughter isn't speaking to us and while it is not pleasant, I am fucked if I am going to make the first move. I know that makes me sound ridiculously immature but hear me out. She is almost 18 and while she can be a great girl sometimes, she cannot bear to be criticised. Any attempt to get her to pull her socks up seems to turn into a knife fight. She is really lazy, is vile to her younger sister (EVERY THING seems to be her younger sister's fault and she tells us, in earshot of her sister, that she hates her and she hates living with her) and is so arrogant! We had a blazing row with her last week over her laziness, because we are really concerned she isn't going to make the grades she needs for uni and has no plan b and over her attitude, yet again, to her sister and the constant rowing it causes. She was vile in the way she spoke to me and her father, so there is no concillitory moves from us, her phone has been taken off her and we are doing the bare minimum for her (ie, no lifts to her mates houses, etc). I have to admit, I am enjoying not dealing with her constant bull shit. I have loads of free time, I am getting a lot more work done (I work from home), there is no arguing between the kids as she seems to think that if she ignores me and talks to her sister, I will be really upset, and I can have an evening of peace in my own living room when DH goes out! DH has put her on notice that yes, as she keeps pointing out, she will be an adult in January and that means she doesn't get the privileges of a child, not that she can do what she likes while we fund her, as she seems to think. So if she fails her exams, she needs to find a plan b. If she keeps treating myself and her sister like shit, she moves out. And if she wants a phone, she can find a job. I am a bit upset, because when we are getting on she is great, but I have been treading on egg shells to make sure we get on. Her behaviour isn't changing and we are all more than a bit fed up. I hope the fact that we are not backing down gives her a bit of a kick up the arse and she at least studies, but honestly, I am not feeling hopeful. DH says I have done too much handholding and she needs to get on with things without being dragged along by me. I think he is right but I hate the thought of her failing her exams. Did standing back work for anyone on here? DH thinks if she wants to be an adult, let her. We can' force her to do anything and perhaps failing her exams next year might be a wake up call that she needs to work at things. And we are exhausted from arguing and the huge, awful fights that blow up every couple of months. She doesn't have a job and never has and won't volunteer at anything, which isn't going to look good to a uni or any future employer. Admittedly, we live in a very rural area where jobs are hard to come by but she doesn't hussle. Again, we have both made sure she never suffered for not having a job, always had nice clothes and money to go out with her friends, so we are to blame for that as well.

Sorry, that turned out to be very long!

Maybe she has a problem she cant talk about? Seems very self destructive behaviour. Could someone else talk to her for you?

Perhaps. She has had MH issues in the past due to some very severe bullying (she moved schools because of it) and I felt she was out of therapy waaaay too quickly. She says she is fine but there could be something else going on. I could ask her pastoral teacher to have a word, she has been very supportive and helpful in the past.

We backed off nagging ds to study. He got grades enough and is taking a gap year as he didn’t bother applying to any universities. He’s not 18 until next year but he’s working and saving to travel a bit before uni. Backing off was the best thing we did - he still didn’t study, but ultimately it’s his life - we can’t run around trying to force him to develop study habits at this point. Now that he’s out of school he’s much calmer. In all honesty, me freaking out about his grades was entirely counter-productive and created barriers. You can’t force an almost adult to study. Nothing is forever. They can go back and take more qualifications once they want to, if they need to. Even his teachers were sanguine. One said ‘who’s the stupid one? The one who does the bare minimum to get a pass, knowing they will never need it again, or the one who wastes hours every night to get a brilliant grade, and still won’t need it ever again?’

MH issues are a pretty big drip feed.

I think you definitely need to take a step back.

Why has her phone been taken off her? Is it for her laziness or her rudeness? There seems to be no link from the crime to the punishment other than the fact it is a stick to beat her with.

I would sit down as a family. Talk about what behaviour is acceptable and what you are prepared to do for her (one lift a week?) then let her get on with it. You can't take her exams for her. It is her life to make mistakes with. She needs guidance, not you constantly on her back nagging her.

Ornery Yeah, maybe I should just let her do it. She needs certain grades to do what she really wants to do and I suppose I want her to get them so badly as she says it will make her really happy, that I am tying myself up in knots. The MH issues were not a drip feed - it was a few years ago now, she had private therapy because of the bullying, she was seen once by CAHMS who had no concerns about her after the therapy, she seems to have moved on. She has a great social life now, that seems to be the only thing she puts any effort into and a boyfriend. The signals we are getting now is one of overbearing arrogance and contempt, rather than depression. Her teachers are telling me she is coasting.

Frenchfancy the phone was taken off her because she spoke to both myself and her father like shit, while telling us that she is almost an adult and she will do what she likes. She seems to think that being an adult means she will come and go as she pleases and behave whatever way she likes, while we bankroll her. Nope, not happening. We've had enough of being spoken to like shit so there are no luxuries from here on until her behaviour improves and a phone is a luxury. We have tried having family meetings and setting out boundaries and a process of how to handle things if her sister is winding her up, but nothing changes. Her sister can be horrible too but she speaks to her very badly, just about every day, and it is affecting her self esteem. Even teachers have mentioned it, which is embarrassing! She does love her, just doesn't seem to be able to get on with her for more than one day at a time and it's not a new problem. I worry that they will not be close when they get older, but I suppose that is not my problem either. But we don't have much family, they are really all they have and I would hate to see them drift apart.

Our son (19) is not going oṇ to university, did quite badly in his GCSEs & dropped out of A-levels after a year & did a BTEC instead (so is a year behind his mates). Is now working at KFC which is his first job - like yours he was never a hustler. We found it was helpful to be totally brisk and practical about expectations from the start: when you leave school you will either go into further education or you will get a job. You will carry on looking for work until you fi d it. Once you are paid you will contribute x% if your wages towards housekeeping, buy & cook one family meal per week. It helped not to tie that information to any argument or frustration - and he has since recognised that these are, in fact, very generous terms. Our side of the bargain - never spelled out - is that we do not make him feel bad about working in a low paid, low skilled job. We are tacitly assuming that he will want to better himself some day., for his own sake, but he doesn't have to do that for us to be proud of him.

Well, after a fraught weekend, where she apologised to us and promised she would do better and stop speaking to us and her sister like shit, I had an email from one of her teachers to tell me she didn't do her homework that was due in Friday and didn't do it for today either, but she did manage to go out with her mates on Saturday night. She has been told that she needs a plan for September 2020, either uni or a job, but frankly I don't think she takes us seriously and thinks if she whines and plays the victim enough, we will let her live at home, being supported like a child. I've had enough and so has her father - we are making it very clear to her that all our obligations end on her birthday in January. She has these wonderful plans of going to uni while living at home, we pay all her living expenses, including a car for the commute, she gets to leave Uni debt free and buy herself a nice house. We've told her we don't mind supporting her while in full time education but she actually needs to study! She is going to fail, not just get mediocre grades, she is going to FAIL! And of course, it will be someone else's fault.

If I were you I'd back off. It's her choice now whether to work and get what she needs for the next stage or she goes and gets a job. She can come back to studying later if she wants to - but it's not for everyone. Their brains are not fully developed yet - especially the part that deals with consequences - and they may need longer to mature and decide on their future. Her results will be her results. I have a feeling if you back off she might stop being so rude. She's trapped, cornered, defensive. She can't hear you. Even if she does carry on being rude and aggressive - just ignore her - don't fuel the conflict. I'd personally not raise the stakes in January around her birthday - won't that simply sabotage her mocks and give her reason to blame you with whatever happens in her results? It's not a good time to have a shoot out.

I say all this from my experience with my own DS - starting his A level year. He is a lazy as hell charming son (no he's never had s job either). The frustration of his not working was ruining our relationship - we were fighting and he was defensive and rude. So when he failed one of his exams and school threatened for him to go down to 2 A levels I arranged a tutor over the holidays and simply stopped talking to him about studying. I made it clear it was up to him now and I am genuinely agnostic now whether he should go to university or get a job. He is very young, a year or two out, or a different path won't hurt him and it's his life. We now get on very well. He knows I will help him out - he still has a tutor and if he wants it I will help research universities, edit his personal statement whatever, but he also knows it's down to him now whether he studies or not. The results will be his alone.

In fact a friend offered him an internship next summer in a field he's very interested in (which taps into an exceptional talent he has ) and my DS said that if that went well he wasnt sure if he would want to go to university. I'd be happy with that - so long as he doesn't feel like he was missing out. It's a well paid profession and a student debt isn't the biggest prize.

So I'd recommend backing down and spiking your guns. Leave her to it. It's her homework and she should face the consequences not be told off by Mummy and Daddy.

Its very hard to sit and watch a car crash, but you can't make them study.
Uni is not for everyone, and she needs to decide what she wants to do. She sounds very young for her age, and maybe a few years out of education might give her a chance to grow up.
I can tell you from personal experience that trying to force them to study just doesn't work, and is often counter- productive.
I'd tell her you will continue to fund her ( to an agreed level) provided she sticks to her side of the bargain, which would involve set chores and polite behaviour, plus regular attendance at school and homework done. You are prepared to support her studying, but if she's not, then you're not going to pay. Why should you work to find someone who's rude to you? Depending on your knowledge of your DD, you might need to be very clear on the detail of what you require- e.g. homework signed off by teacher, or x number of hours per week studying. If she's not studying then she can't expect you to continue to fund her. If you feel kind , you might provide food and a roof over her head, but not things like phone and clothes and going out money. Those are extras which she will have to pay for herself.
If, on the other hand , she demonstrates that she is serious about her studies, then you are happy to help her. The agreed level of help could include a basic phone and a small allowance for travel etc, maybe an agreed number of lifts, but not much else. Money for going out needs to be earned, either by helping you or getting a job.
She won't like it, but she's not happy now. And you can't let her treat you so disrespectfully.

I've explained to my DS that I have taken on extra hours at work to subsidize his studies, and that I work so he doesn't have to because I want him to be able to focus on his studies. I'm not going to do that for someone who is rude to me.

You sound absolutely fucking vile. Do you have no insight into your own behaviour? You really can't see your responsibility for this? You can't see you're creating this and driving it? Seriously?

Do you understand nothing about teenagers' development? They need to be able to push against their parents and sometimes be deeply unpleasant, and learn that their parents will not stop loving them because of it.

Instead you're gleefully telling her you can't wait to wash your hands of her on her birthday! Sick.

She doesn't do a piece of homework and your reaction is to fly off the handle, speaking about her in a disgusting way, and basically cutting her off. No wonder she's angry and hurting.

Decent parents don't cast their children off at 18, and decent parents aren't stupid enough to think a legal system that gives 18 year olds certain rights equates to that person being fully adult developmentally or emotionally at 18. Far from it.

God, I hope your posts are fiction.

@katalavenete

Bit harsh, but I do agree with what you are saying. Poor kid. I don't think being told that your parents are ending their obligations on your 18th birthday is conducive to good grades. If anything you are pushing her so far away from that being a reality.

@katalavenete I think your post was too harsh and although I do agree with some of it (you’re correct that parental obligations absolutely don’t end on an 18th birthday), however OPs teen does sound like she’s being a right brat and OP’s reaching the end of her tether. It’s important that OP’s teen take responsibility for her life instead of being allowed to make her disagreements with her mum and family what she gets to blame for things not going right for her.

OP I would totally back off and let her fail academically. If she can’t succeed at school off her own bat then she has no chance of lasting at uni. She may learn better through failure, and seeing her more academically inclined peers move on to uni when she can’t. At this age she needs to be self directed with the odd parental prod, and parental support. If she’s failing so drastically then so be it, hopefully it will motivate her to pull her socks up and try again in12 months time.

@katalavenete,

What do you propose OP does instead? In detail, please.

I think people have misunderstood what I said about our obligations ending in January. At no point did I say we were throwing her out of the house penniless as the clock struck midnight. Every time we try and talk to her about her behaviour, we get told she is going to be an adult soon and we won't be able to tell her what to do. She seems to think that turning 18 means we have no parental control and she will get to swan around doing what she likes while we continue to foot the bill. What we have been impressing on her is that her childhood is indeed over in a couple of months and this means she can no longer behave like a child. So it's uni or a full time job come September, because we are not funding an adult to sit around the house all day doing whatever they like and depending on us for income, while speaking to us so rudely. The way she speaks to her sister is a separate issue and a very serious one. If, as an adult, she cannot live in the same house as her as she keeps telling us, then she needs to move out either for uni or for a full time job. She's not obliged to stay here with someone she claims to hate and we're not obliged to put up with it either. That's what being an adult means. We had a conversation with her last night about the email from her her teacher. Of course, she claimed she had already spoken to her teacher and it was no big deal and the teacher had no concerns etc, but we just pointed out if that was the case, she wouldn't be contacting us. So we just laid it all out for her again. Either she works really hard over the next seven months, because realistically, that is all the time she has left in class before she goes on study leave, or this wonderful degree that she seems so convinced she will be starting next September, simply isn't going to happen. Then she has to get a job, a full time job, that won't be anywhere near as exciting or as fulfilling as the job the degree would qualify her for, and start contributing. In the meantime, we want her to plan out a schedule and put it on the side of the fridge for studying. The phone she will only get back if she is going out. No more phone at school or at home anymore, because she is glued to it and doesn't realise herself how much time she is spending on it. She hasn't got time for two hour conversations with her boyfriend. And as long as WE pay the bill for the phone WE get to say how it used. So that's it. It's not that I don't care anymore but I can't do anymore - at least she is under no illusion as to how next year will pan out either way. Uni or job, those are the choices. Who knows, if she does fail, doing a job she doesn't like might give her a kick up the bum. She has had to do work experience as part of her uni application and has loved it so the thought of that job being out of reach might be sobering. Her attitude at the moment seems to be one of, "I'll do what I like because I am determined to get what I want." Like if she wants it badly enough, it will happen. But she has to do the work! Katalavenete you need to read posts better and tone down the hyperbole.

DelphiniumBlue I think you are right, she is very immature, it is something my husband has been saying the last year. He has been saying that regardless of her results, a year of working in the real world might make her grow up a bit. Who knows? We have to wait and see what next year brings.

I agree with you OP. Tough love, and she’s going to be angry, but way better in the long run for her which is the most important consideration.

I am wondering if perhaps she is actually terrified of failing. It does sound a bit as if you are laying on about how horrible life will be if she doesn't do well in her exams and goes to university. Not everybody is suited to that life, and even for the ones that are, the idea that this is the one-off life-time chance that mustn't be missed can be very damaging. (Believe me, I am a university lecturer: I deal with the fallout and it can look absolutely horrendous).

Do you ever speak to her about a non-graduate future in positive terms? Do you ever explain to her that once you are an adult, life doesn't follow the same strict timelines, that it is absolutely fine to try a few different things, as long as you are doing something? That you would be proud of her if she swept the floors or doled out hamburgers as long as she did it as well as she could?

One of my dc took 2 years working as a barrista before she finally got into the educational programme she wanted. It wasn't a failure, it wasn't a horrible time, she learnt useful skills and is now very grateful that she had that time: she admits that she is getting a lot more out of her education than she would have done straight after school.

Our youngest is working at KFC. He is thinking about maybe going into management, but the main point is, he is doing something and learning from it. He may go for HE at a later stage, or he may not. He was very unhappy during his time at school because he never felt he was good enough: he hadn't been many days in work before he realised that he can do things and do them well.

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but ime being afraid of not being good enough can manifest as horrible behaviour in young people. Obviously you shouldn't accept rudeness, but I don't think trying to frighten her out of rudeness is the right path. Quietly clamp down on bad behaviour but don't try to punish her by telling her she will be a failure.

Don't go into this with the expectation that the world of work is there to be horrible and make her see how wrong she was. It may be just the thing for her. She may be brilliant at it, and thrive in the knowledge that she is doing something useful. And if you don't like a job, as long as you hold out and get a decent reference, you can always try for a new one: it's not like a degree where you are stuck with your first choice. If ds leaves KFC by Christmas and finds another job: that won't be a failure, it will be a reward. Try to turn things round a bit in your mind.

corythatwas We are not telling her it is a once in a life time chance. Myself and my husband don't actually think it is mentally healthy for her to be so set on one thing and not even consider other paths in life. What we are trying to get through to her is that if she works hard over the next few months and gets decent grades, she will have options, whether it be uni, full time work, apprentice ship, whatever she wants to do. When we try and discuss having a plan b and not pinning all her hopes on this one course and this one career choice, we get told that we don't believe in her, that she WILL be going to that uni and that course next year and that she doesn't need us knocking her choices. She has tunnel vision and yet won't work hard to get to that goal. It's like she is entitled to this, so she is going to get it. It's not a good attitude to have and it will not benefit her in life, whatever she does. If she fails, she is going to find it very hard to get a full time job - we live in a very remote rural area, there are no KFCs and very few jobs of any kind. She is a 1 hour, 45 minute commute from the nearest KFC, how attractive do you think she will be to an employer like that when she has failed her exams as well? This is the reality of her situation and she needs to face up to it. She isn't unhappy like your youngest, if anything, she is far too cocky. She is a bright girl and she thinks she can coast. Whatever path she takes in life, she is going to have to put the work in or she will suffer for it. And I say that she won't find another job as fulfilling or exciting as the degree and the career she has chosen, because this is what SHE tells ME. Then she needs to crack on, stop indulging herself and put the work in.

Despite her intelligence, she may have developed some bad study habits and be struggling. Have you thought about tutors to help her settle and focus, and practice exam skills and revision? My son (very difficult couple of years, now final year of school and - at last - actually doing well with 1-2-1 help) has found tutors transformative. And it will let you off the hook - the study schedule on the fridge is just the kind of thing that schools recommend, but which never, ever works unless the student really wants to be doing the work in the first place; it just creates another point of conflict. She sounds immature, angry and scared. And you also sound anxious, unsurprisingly. You are right, that she is going to find it hard to get a full-time job living miles from anywhere. So if she doesn't make her grades for this course, she might need to resit. Or find a different course with the grades she has. Or go away to work/volunteer/generally build up more experience and confidence while she works out what she does next - in which case, she will probably need your financial support (because she can't earn money easily, as you've pointed out) as well as your ongoing support to help her explore different avenues.

So, no, I don't think you should 'let her fail', because it sounds like she is pretty frail already (the rigidity, the refusal to think about alternatives, the cockiness, the anger, lasting shame from having been bullied, rather likely) but I do think you should step back and outsource some help - tutors rather than trying to push study at her yourselves, maybe some extra careers advice. You're the adult, you're the one with more resources and experience in this circumstance. She needs the benefit of that.

OP, for the love of God, paragraphs, please.

Still not sure making her pin up timetables and taking her phone helps. Its all about control and that doesnt sit well with teaching your child to be independent, take responsibility and learn from their mistakes.

Its still a battleground if you keep fighting. You sound very hardened and I'm not sure what you're learning. Do you ever admit to not getting things right and learning from your mistakes? Your daughter obviously got her stubborness from somewhere close to home.

OP - you asked a question and then told everyone EXACTLY what you are going to be doing. If that’s the way all your relationships work your dd won’t have time to draw breath and tell you she is struggling, if she indeed is.

I am always the harsh parent (we have a teen dd similar age to yours) and dh would LOL to see me offering this advice but even from my POV but really you need to chill out a bit. The timetabling and total phone bans are the way most people discipline younger teens. How about phone restriction rather than total ban? If you are as rural as you say you are (your choice, not hers) she must feel fairly trapped and isolated as it is already.

I don’t doubt for one second her behaviour has been appalling but your response seems to become more and more draconian with fewer and fewer results. Maybe try and step back and try a different tactic?

She may bomb out, she may not but at 18yrs old being faced with the choice of ‘work really hard for 7 months’ and we might stop yelling v. do nothing and see what happens, well, let’s face it, there is vast amount of info explaining how teen brains are not the masters of forward planning...

If she does bomb out, the realities of working long hours for low wage may be just the wake up call she needs.

I wish you and her luck!

You want her to act like an adult but you’re certainly not treating her like one. I never understand why parents want the world to teach their children a lesson.

Some kindness and understanding might work better. She sounds quite a lonely girl.