Sources to help DD reframe her ideas of, approach to and expectations of friendships?

[DoinItForTheKids]

My DD (15, 16 in March) is in her last year of secondary school and has had probably more than her fair share of friendship/friendship group changes in the last couple of years of school, usually due to the power of 'the group' and often instigated by one agitator-type girl whom the others are under the power of and they won't question their inappropriate demands leading to one child being evicted from the group. In addition (and pre-dating this) there is an unpleasant/deluded family dynamic on the side of her father's family (my XH) and she has virtually no contact with him (this Xmas was a full year since she'd last seen him). There's an odd 'pecking order' of all the grandchildren in the family and sadly DD is at the bottom (undeservedly but that's how it is). So that's the background.

As I write, once again she's spent the whole period after Xmas/just before NY totally on her own (apart from one lad she's spent some time with who I suspect is moving towards BF territory). She sees 'friends' arranging to meet and go out for meals and they always leave her out. So I think she's lonely a lot of the time, and bored and her self esteem constantly under attack.

I think she's opting to leave things as they are for the remainder of her time at school but I really think that she needs to draw a line (in several ways) when she goes to do her A levels not least since one of these girls will be on the triple-subject course that she's going to be doing, and I want to help her avoid these same scenarios following her through her A level years.

I wondered if anyone had recommendations for books, websites or anything really that I can point her to that might help her take a fresh look at things? It's difficult because I do feel that if someone really is a friend, they wouldn't consistently arrange to go out without you - that's inherently not friendly is it! And who wouldn't be hurt by that? 'Just make other friends then' - well, at the moment, due to the various groups / cliques, it's jut not an option. One of DDs teachers says this Yr 11 group have been one of the worst, bitchiest, nastiest she's taught for a few years so it's not me claiming that they're all awful and 'poor DD' - they really are horrible / or stuck in their groups from which they (apparently) can't break free.

Any ideas, thoughts, sources of info, books - please could you let me know?

Is your DD staying at 6th form or going to college for A Levels? I had to stay at 6th form but even so I still found things improved a fair bit for me then. I mixed with new people in my chosen subjects and our form groups changed too. Plus we had a big 6th form that took in students from other schools so the whole established dynamic changed.

You said one of these girls is on her course. Are all these girls staying on for A Levels? If just one or two leave it might help break things up. Plus if the others are all doing different courses that should help too.

I don't really have any advice other than to say once she's got some real friends I expect she'll see the difference and will be able to draw that line for herself in the future.

Sixth form. The teacher of the triple subject is adamant that no one will pass through the application process if they are girls who have form for unpleasant behaviour - she wants to maintain the lovely, supportive, family feel to the course that exists currently, and that's what I want for DD. I don't want her sixth form experience tainted; I think it's REALLY important that things start to go right for her now.

So I think the situation will be like yours and the whole aesthetic will be different but I also want to arm her with some skills and an open approach to making friends with other people. Yes, there are only 1 or 2 girls going onto this course from her current year, the girl she knows who's a half friend and another girl who DD is perfectly ok with but they're not mates as such. There will also be others coming in from other schools so that will change the mix a lot as well.

I hope so - thank you @Madcatter - I'm not sure whether she just needs to stand up for herself with this friend right at the start of sixth form (eg you're someone I really count as a friend but to me that means we'll be friends in 6th form and out of 6th form so I'm not interested in you talking to me during the day then leaving me out at the weekend) - OR - is it a case of just leave it but get her to understand about the Friendship Pyramid with the aim of her making lots of new friends but not viewing them all as top of pyramid types from the get-go - only time can tell who they are.

It's sad because about 3 times over now she has thought she'd got real friends... Didn't turn out to be the case though. Thanks for your reply.

Book called untangled by Lisa Damour is quite good

he teacher of the triple subject is adamant that no one will pass through the application process if they are girls who have form for unpleasant behaviour - she wants to maintain the lovely, supportive, family feel to the course that exists currently

Are you serious? The teacher is choosing a level applicants based on her perceptions of their personality and behavior? that's appalling, and not in any way their job.

Will have a look Stuff thanks for the recommendation.

It sure there is much you can do at this age. My DD only has 3-4 friends she sees on her own outside of school and very occasionally sees some friends in a group setting either for someone’s bday or a rare group lunch. She’s also been left out before, and those are the occasions I know about! She may change to a college at sixth form, if she gets in, but if not she will stay put as it’s a good sixth form and from my experience you do meet other people - others come from outside or you mix with those in your course. Most of my friends were from outside of school at this point but DD didn’t want to persue a social life outside of school (she tried but wasn’t successful).

The teacher of the triple subject is adamant that no one will pass through the application process if they are girls who have form for unpleasant behaviour

Well that’s not going to happen because it’s illegal.

The application process is not allowed in any way to be based on behaviour. It is solely allowed to be based on grades. So if Kim Jong Un turned up with good enough GCSEs for their published requirements then he’d be in, too.

Thanks JustDance.

There's a huge change in teens between school and college. I'm not sure if be happy keepimgvher at 6th form when there's more likely a good mix at a college - totally different setting / feeling/ ethos

Party I feel your over invested, is she happy? Does she mind you speaking to teachers? Can she sort out her own social life? Is she someone who says no all the time and theyve stopped asking?

I've no advice but I have one the same age who has had similar problems. This can be a really tricky age for friendships and I can't wait for her to leave school to be honest and have a fresh start at college

Oh here we go with the over-invested crap (sorry, but I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing this). You've NO idea what shit and misery this girl has been through during the last 5 years of her life, no idea at all. 'Is she happy?' - no. She's spent yet ANOTHER day completely on her own bored out of her mind - she's gregarious, outgoing, fun, funny, loving, kind - she shouldn't have to be sat on her own weekend after weekend being deliberately left out of stuff. I TOTALLY understand that she will have to sort this all out for herself, at the end of the day, when she's at sixth form, but for goodness sake, what is wrong with helping her if I can?! That's not over investment, it's being a good parent.

I don't 'speak to teachers' - it was a routine event at school not me 'meeting teachers' behind DDs back.

Can she sort out her own social life - er, yes, she is completely capable of 'sorting out her social life'. I am not trying to run her social life, I'm thinking about what help and guidance I can give her within the context of sixth form so that the time she spends there is a really enjoyable, confidence building experience for her, not the desolate landscape of loneliness and rejection that has been part of her secondary school experience to date and currently.

No one is 'keeping her at sixth form' - sixth form offers the courses she wants to do and are known for their very good courses in both the triple subject and fourth subject that she's going to be doing and whilst initially I though no let's go to college instead, there wasn't as good an offering at any of the workable local colleges, compared to sixth form (I am assured that the setting / feeling and ethos at sixth form is completely different to the school, and that's from students on this exact same course at the moment so direct from the horses mouth). Added to which the class sizes are WAYYYY smaller than at college so the individual attention capacity is really good. She is happy and I am happy that it's very much the right choice for her.

Going by many of her fellow pupils at the moment bearing in mind secondary school will be finished in a few months after exams, these girls are distinctly NOT displaying any 'huge' changes! They're still in the 'you're not in our group' / 'you can't sit with us' stage befitting pupils in about year 8 or 9 but certainly not Year 11! Let's hope something miraculous happens over the summer holidays to these girls but there's no guarantee it will, and that the new mix of pupils all positively minded to do courses that they genuinely love the subject matter of, will bode for a much better experience for DD than she's had so far because she's really been through the mill.

isitime yes, I know, I simply want her to be happy and to be treated properly. I hope further education is the point at which this occurs I really do. Hope yours has a good experience.

I don't have any advice, but I'm waiting with baited breath for some suggestions as my dd, also 15, struggles with friendships. She has aspergers, and can't see that those she calls friends always leave her out of things and are often downright rude and nasty to her. She doesn't really have even one true friend, they all make fun of her and organise stuff, but then go without her, etc.

I feel desperately sorry for her, but don't know how to help her. It doesn't help that I have aspergers too and very few real friends myself, so she's never been able to learn from me either.

Has she attempted to arrange anything with the girls in her group over Christmas? Is there one friend who she is closer to that the rest en masse?

She's a lovely, kind, loyal girl who would make a great friend if given the chance, but because she's a bit awkward and different due to the aspergers other people tend to use her or are just downright mean to her. She doesnt see it, either because she doesn't want to or because she's too nice to see it (or a bit of both).

I think it's lovely that you care enough to want to help your dd.

What exactly are you asking us to recommend? Books with good friendships? Fiction or self help type? Presumably she has seen mean girls which is based on a non fiction book which I helpfully cant remember the name of. What about chicken soup for the teenage soul? I havent read it but remember a lot of my teenaged campers reading it. You could go onto amazon and find it and then look at what other customers have bought.

Why are you angry at me?
Your daughter has been unhappy in this place for 5 years yet you want her to stay? How have the school handled this? What lessons have they taught these girls about friendships? Some schools have bad cultures and blaming the kids is wrong! Blame the bloody teachers for not pulling the kids up on shitty behaviour and tolerating such crap.

Can't you see this is bullying instigated by 1 - scary leader and 2- kids too shot scared to rock the boat so follow with their heads in the sand.
Kids need to learn how to be friends and school have failed all those kids

Point your anger in the right direction -

dreaming I'm so sorry to hear yet another example of friendships not working out well. Thank you for your last sentence on your subsequent post btw! Who wouldn't want to help their child be happy?

Hi Nancy - yes, she frequently reaches out and says do you want to do x y or z, she's either ignored or she finds out on social media that the girls have been out amongst themselves but have not included her. She wanted to go to a sporting activity that she's shared with a friend that happens this time of year and had asked her and I just knew it wouldn't happen - it didn't.

I have plans afoot for Jan/Feb. I am determined to encourage her onto the NCS thing in the summer, she's going to be getting a mentor from a girl who's already on the same A level course, she's going to be assisting with teaching etc at dance clubs for pupils in the younger years of the school.

I think it is mostly just a case of soldiering on for the rest of this year and hoping to goodness that there is a change in the wind at sixth form. However, I don't take this for granted and it would be foolish just to think 'oh it will all be different at sixth form' - it might not or might not be as easy or automatic as that, who knows. There's plenty of people posting on thestudentroom reporting how they are completely on their own at lunchtimes and breaktimes and have no friends at colleges and sixth forms so this is not an isolated problem and not everyone manages to fit into friendship groups. I don't want her spending her breaks and lunchtimes in a toilet cubicle as she has done in the last few months.

Many sympathies to you and dd op, it can be horrendous when this happens.

It's a very difficult situation, no easy answers. "Drop those friends and make new ones" is what we want to say, but actually making new ones at school is not that easy when, as you say, the groups (and other girls' views of your dd) are long formed, and hard to change. Your dd may be taking the pragmatic view that even if the current group leave her out of things, she is better off at school with than without them. (Yes, as I said - it can be horrendous! But school is a unique environment where it can be very difficult to adopt the 'better off without them' approach that many of us would take in 'rl')

As for talking to school, I know it sounds utterly defeatist but I'm not sure the school could do much to help anyway - it can't force the girls to invite your dd on out-of-school outings, and I'm sure it wouldn't feel that it should do that anyway! You're definitely doing the right thing to encourage dd to do other activities, and try to meet new people.

As for books, the one people often recommend is Queen Bees and Wannabes. It is very interesting, and does have some tips.

You're right that 6th form may be different - though unfortunately you're also right that that is not always the case! Still, if it's the best educational environment by far for your dd then it may well be worth sticking it out - otherwise it might be worth considering a move to college.

Oh one more thing - as for breaks and lunchtimes, could dd possibly go to the library at lunchtime? (Or does that mark a dc out, ridiculously, as a loser? - yes I know, but it does happen.) At least that way she could get some homework done!

Or offer to help out with the yr 7/8 lunchtime clubs? - which I know you're going to suggest anyway.

Can she sort out her own social life - er, yes, she is completely capable of 'sorting out her social life

Then why are you posting at all?

GreenTulips and Curry - bet you were the mean ones at school.

People are talking about books -- we're showing our age. The kids don't do much in way of self-help books. They do Instagram videos & postcasts.

I think Dan and Phil used to do a lot of relationship advice, but they are more for age 12-14. I'd try "friendship advice" on youtube.

redexpat Yes, book suggestions that sort of thing, self help, insight, different ways possibly of framing friendships and how you feel about them or react to them, anything along those lines.

green - she won't be 'staying', it's an entirely different campus with a mixed intake from numerous different locations. What the school have or haven't done about bullying is pretty much irrelevant at this point when she only has a few months left. I agree with you where the issue lies - it lies firstly with these girls belief in the power of 'the group' and only takes one agitating shit stirrer to break apart friendships which have existed happily for years - again, whilst I agree that the school could and should do a LOT more to tackle this, I can't dictate what they do or don't do, and there's not long left hence even if they started up a 'fuck the group' campaign, it wouldn't do a lot of good in the time available (although I think they need to understand a lot more about this group business and actively promote appropriate behaviours - but that's a whole 'nother thing that would warrant its own thread). When someone tells me that me supporting my child through emotional difficulty is 'over investment' I will always take issue with that.

sothat Your comments are spot on of the situation and I will have a look at the Queen Bees one - there are LOTS of books of this ilk out there so definitely looking for specific recommendations. Part of this is personal growth and development that only ever takes time. Re breaks and lunchtimes, we now have an arrangement whereby DD can go to the pastoral head of year's office at any time if she needs somewhere to hang - another thing I've set up in the last few months . You're right though, sitting in the library would probably be social death wouldn't it! Confirmation that you really aren't 'one of them'. The problem is DD has learned to see which girls really aren't very nice or very true and she doesn't want to sit with them and pretend to be mates with people who constantly cause trouble for quite a few people. At least whilst this may mean she has to spend time alone, she is sticking to her principals of what she feels constitutes the types of behaviours that she wants to be around, and those that she doesn't.

curry I'm posting for sources of information that my DD could read that might make her reflect on how she establishes relationships, what friendships are, what they mean to her, understanding the different types of friendships that are out there - widening her understanding beyond what she knows about friendships so far. Whether she has the ability to call someone and say hey do you want to go to the cinema on Friday night or not (which she has) is not the point of this post and commenting on that totally misses the point. These disdainful, glib types of post really don't help anyone - this is meant to be a positive and supportive area for people wishing to help their teens through a differing variety of problems and challenges so that they can best help them by utilising the power of the joint knowledge of MNers who have been through this with their teens and can offer insight or advise what worked for them.

Yeah you're right lljkk!! Bunch of old farts aren't we!! I should have a trawl of youtube as well for sure.

chocfingers I'm sayin' nothing! .