Don't know what to do. Help!

[paperchase0verdone]

I know this is for teenagers but I need some advice. I'm desperate. My Dd2 is 11. Dd1 is 13 and a great girl. Laughs and jokes, joy to be around. So why isn't Dd2 like that? She causes arguments everyday. Whether that's between the house or even Dd1 and her friends at school. She lies about everything but is so convincing you question yourself. You can't have a conversation in front of her as she instantly repeats to who ever she sees. Her school called me because Dd2 made out I don't feed her so had no lunch money so teachers were handing money over to her, until the decided to call me and I informed them she has money. She got in trouble. She then told the dinner lady that some bigger kids stole her drink, the dinner lady felt sorry for her and gave her one, then heard Dd1 & Dd2 arguing that Dd2 made it up so dinner lady snatched it off Dd2 which made her cry. Dd2 has been stealing money from people at school. Stealing sweets from teachers and other kids. Doesn't have any friends as she is socially underage, like raising a 7 year old. She wants to play with our next door neighbour who is 6. But even then Dd2 is to bossy for 6 yr old. So recent thing, Dd2 in trouble for lying again at school. So teacher collared her which turned into Dd2 accusing DP of assault & dragging Dd2 across the bedroom by her hair. Ss now involved but I'm feeling done. Can't explain other things she's done. To much to list. I cry sometimes and she loves it. She enjoys me crying. Ss want to send me to a parenting class. I went mad! I parent other kids fine. Why should I?! I'm NOT THE PROBLEM.
Sick of being made out to be bad parent, that I need structure and guidance. NO! Thinking of giving Dd2 to MIL for a while. I need a break. I've cried now for 5 days constant. My head hurts, my body hurts and my heart hurts.
My house would be lovely without Dd2 there. Peaceful. No tension. No feeling of dread. I hate weekends. Dread having Dd2 for 48 hours straight. I'm so finished with it all. I keep crying as I know I sound like a bad mum. I swear I'm not. I've tried and tried everyday. Fighting for Dd2 but she doesn't seem to acknowledge what I do.

your dd sounds as if she needs some kind of assessment.
Try and sit down and make an objective list of things which are going on.
eg, persistent lying, stealing etc. Give an example in each case.

Go into school, or when you see SS show them the list and say you are concerned, and ask for a referal for assessment.

I know it is really common for SS to start with the parenting thing and how frustrating that is, but as your other kids are fine, hopefully you should get through quickly to some assessment.

Is there anyone who she talks to? You talk about MIL - is she supportive? Does she know about dds lies, or does she dismiss them and pretend nothign is wrong? Would dd talk to her?

At the moment you sound at the end of your tether, and that isn't helping dd either, she needs to know you will be with her WHATEVER goes on, even when you are cross or sad about her behaviour, you will still be there for her. She is still really young.

HughLauriesStubble
I think you're being very unfair with your comments.

Op you have my sympathies
I had a very difficult ds about 12 years ago, I wish i had pushed for an assessment for him back then.

I had to call SS and beg for help with him but they were useless.
He's now 25 and only now is getting the right care and treatment for his issues which we believe to be borderline personality disorder.

I'm not saying your daughter has that at all just that getting the right support can be very hard.

HughLaurieStubble as I said in the OP there are a lot more things that has gone on that I haven't mentioned.

We have had assessments done, support from schools, from doctors. Everyone has spoken to her about her behaviour. We've had countless meetings, tried going back to basics, it's just dragging me down.
Her behaviour towards everyone is so bad. She knows she gets found out when she lies, she knows she shouldn't do certain things but it's like it's compulsory. She has too. Like a pathological liar. Every day I get a phone call "Dd2 has done such and such today, just thought you should know" and I dread answering the phone.
She wakes up so early and everyone has to be up! She will scream and shout and when you say why?! She just shrugs and says I don't know. MIL has spoken to her. My mum has. Her grandparents have. Her school. Social. Even the police at one point because she would talk to strangers and invite them around.
Maybe it sounds like I was putting her up to Dd1 but it wasn't like that. Maybe I didn't write it or come off properly. So apologies for that.

Dd2 has her own uniqueness that Dd1 doesn't have. Dd2 like to dress unique etc and we encourage her to be her own person. Buy this we don't encourage. She hasn't ever been on a sleepover because she doesn't and never has any friends. She acts strange in front of them. Very immature. She will growl in their face.
I would never just 'get rid' of her, so to want her to leave obviously means there is more than just a few odd occasions she does something. I'm so tired of it. I try with her, some say I'm to soft with her, I hate to see her cry or see her hurt. I try to get her to think about other people's feelings. But it doesn't work.

What were the results of all those assessments op? Has she been diagnosed with anything?

What did the assessments say? That's a pretty crucial bit of your post you're missing. If her behaviour is as you say then she very clearly has special needs.

They say she doesn't have Autism or Aspergers.... they say she has OCD (with a compulsive need for me) and that she may 'grow out of it'
I put a post up here ages ago about her and someone replied with PDA so I told them about this and it's like they are dragging their feet.
She was once put on kidnap to help her sleep then we were brushed away. She got a new headteacher and he made me feel like it was all in my head. That I was making it up. Which sent me on a spiral of self doubt. He said no one would believe me.

You sound so worn down with your dd's behaviour . I'm not sure what a parenting class entails but if it could help you with dealing with a SN child it would be worth considering. They may be able to offer strategies you haven't tried and you sound like you are crying out for some support and guidance.

It's not an admission of failure to seek help. I understand it must be frustrating, anyone would find your situation unbearably hard. I don't think blame comes into it. It's not your fault and I suspect your dd can't help her behaviour. I doubt she is happy with the way things are.
Are there any support groups you could attend? It may help to meet other parents in a similar position to you?

So I just stopped. I admit I stopped pushing because the school were not willing to help me and they even wrote a letter to her assessors telling them it was all in my head that Dd2 is a perfect child. So I've battled alone, feeling judged. Now SS want to do another assessment. Before I do anything. I'm so tired of doing this. Of apologizing to everyone for her behaviour. I mean, it speaks volumes when NOONE in my family has stepped forward and said "we'll take her for a while, give you a break" or "let's have her for the weekend" nothing. Because she causes them problems too.
Sometimes I think she knows what she's doing , other times I look at her and think she has no idea....

Firstly
You sound like you need a bit of a break from this situation. Can your dd go and stay with your mil for a day or two to give you some time out?
I think it would be a good idea to speak to school and tell them everything, take the support that is offered and work with the relative agencies to get to the bottom of this.

Do you have contact with camhs at all op?

My MIL won't take her. But not just because of her behaviour. She has too much going on herself.

What is cams? All I've ever had contact with is a Caffcas and ss along with a special needs school

Don't know if it would help but can you send DD1 to stay with MiL for a while as a 'treat' for her good behaviour. You won't get a (much needed) break but it might change the dynamic at home if one DD is not there.

I don't understand why the headteacher is saying that your dd2 is "perfect" and that it's all in your head? If the school is calling everyday with something bad dd2 did, why is the headteacher saying that? Who at school is calling then? I am really confused. Sounds like it should be obvious to everyone that dd2 has a problem...

Camhs is child and adolescent mental health services.
Your GP can refer you to them.

Misshelena sorry I realise that I kind of jumbled everything up. Her primary headteacher said that and now we've moved on to high school. So they are the ones calling me (even though thinking back so did the primary school. ...) he was just a bit if a toss pot in general.

I've been on the phone to her school, to SS and booked a gp appointment so they can refer her to cahms. So thank you for the info on that.
Newest development is she accused DP of 'beating' her . This was said to the school teacher but now has been told to others around the school.
She actually walked up to 1 girl and just out right told her. No conversation first. Just "oh well when I make DP angry, I get beaten and slapped"
Luckily enough said girl went to Dd1 and told her after girl had told the teachers what Dd2 had said. So now we know.
We haven't said anything to Dd2 about what we know. I have rang ss to tell them off Dd2 latest and hope to hear back from them tomorrow.
So over done with this now. Her lies are getting worse and I'm thinking she could get DP into so much trouble. DP won't be alone with Dd2 just incase she accuses again. Always has someone else there.
This is why Dd2 is pushing me over the edge. But yet she says this and runs up to DP for a cuddle and acts like she never said anything.....

It must be so hard. A referral to Camhs is the next step and also pursue any other asessments available. It might help to keep a record of some of your dd's behaviour to illustrate just how bad things are?

I hope things improve .

Hi OP

I came onto Mumsnet to frantically look for ideas to deal with my situation and nearly straight away saw your post. In many ways your DD2 sounds like my DD1, aged 12. I have two other younger DD, who are sweet, well behaved and are terrified of her. DD1 routinely steals their stuff and lies very convincingly about it. If they have sweets she'll hunt them down and eat them. I love her to pieces but our home is hellish as it's full of tension and dread, waiting for the next explosion or meltdown.

We first tried to access help when she was 7 or 8 and like you got told our parenting was too lax. However, whenever we try to get her to do anything - and I mean ANYTHING, such as putting her empty yoghurt pot in the bin - it turns into a fully fledged meltdown and often ends with my other two DD crying in fear. Last week she punched me and I think now she's crossed that line it'll happen again. I've told her that if she hits me again, I'll call the police. She pretty much has the body and strength of a grown woman, but the emotional control of a six year old.

I've been told I need to do a parenting course and like you I bloody resent the implication that my parenting is at fault. I'm self employed and can't take time out in the day but I'm going to have to find a way. I'm hoping I might learn something about how to deal with her. We had one appointment with a child psychologist and they said, "Yeah, she seems to fit ASD, but we can't tell from one appointment and the road to a diagnosis is really long and hard and probably not worth it" then they discharged her with no follow up and suggested I do a parenting course. I'm waiting for the letter offering it to come through.

I'm at home today because after the most recent meltdown last night/this morning it took me until 11.30 to get her to school and now I'm too upset to be able to go to work. I think I will have to phone social services this afternoon, once I find a way to stop crying.

Anyway, although my post is of absolutely no help to you whatsoever, I wanted to thank you because your post made me feel less alone even though I wouldn't wish this shit on anyone so I'm sorry you're going through it. I also wanted to say, you don't sound like a bad mum. You sound like a desperate mum. You sound like me. :(

From what you've described she seems to lack empathy - she doesn't understand or have any feeling about how her behaviour affects people around her. It's like she is self gratifying and unable to put herself in other people's shoes or understand their feelings at all. I think that is what I would be highlighting to the professionals that are doing the assessments - could you speak to your GP again? It does sound like there is definitely something not quite right.

BloodiedButUnbowed - Hi! Your post made me cry because I'm not alone. Because there is someone else who is going through something that you just can't seem to control.
I have cried for the past 4 days, non stop. I've got the biggest headache from it that I can't even function properly.
I hope social services can help you. I hope they can help me too. I haven't heard from them since her latest lies but i have spoken to the school and they will now pull her out to talk.

If you ever want to talk, then I'm here. I understand why you cry and I can't fix it but I can be a non judgemental ear

Emberfirefly that's exactly what I say about her on a daily basis. She has no empathy for hurting my feelings or anyone else's. She doesn't know that calling people ugly or fat or any other name she decides, actually hurts. I put some makeup on the other week and she burst out laughing saying "Mum what have you done?! Look at her lips!" (I had lipstick on) and I swear it made me feel embarrassed and I genuinely wiped it all off because she wouldn't drop it.
She just has no social skills. Doesn't know what to say/what not to say. Doesn't care if she has her phone taken away - even though she just screamed for 29 minutes about it. It's like she's a walking contradiction. She's behind but clever. Unsociable but sociable. I think that's why people never believe me.

I'm so sorry you are going through his. My son is a real challenge and our home life is very difficult so I have some inkling. Please go to your GP and get a referral to a child psychologist. Please write down a list of stuff as you have here, and share the notes with him/her. It is such hard work at times. I've just been to the school where my DS is constantly in trouble. What they don't seem to understand is that I can't control his behaviour either! I need help not admonishment. Just like he does. We are off to see CAMHs on Friday so fingers crossed things will improve.

I'm sorry that you're all going through this. I can't imagine anyone in your family's feels very good right now.

I completely understand your insult and hurt at being told about the parenting courses, I do. I think I would very much feel the same in your situation. However, DD 4 had some behaviour problems (especially over the summer). I'm not comparing them to your DD as I think your situation is much more serious, and although me and DH were doing everything 'right' (punishing bad behaviour when it arose, encouraging good behaviour, keeping her mentally stimulated and making sure she had enough exercise etc), nothing was working.

We changed our approach after we found ourselves getting angrier and angrier at her (we were never violent or anything, but hated the shouting and the horrible atmosphere), and her behaviour improved so much. Bedtime was a huge issue for us so when her behaviour improved so did her sleep and her behaviour improved again.

I'm not saying that changing your approach with your DD will magically make things better. I think there's a lot more to it than that, especially in your specific situation. But, perhaps the class may teach you a different way of dealing with her that will help you and help you cope with the situations as they arise so that you feel less helpless. Even if it doesn't change her behaviour, it may help you cope.

Sorry that was long winded and I'm not sure I got my point across at all

I think someone mentioned upthread, PDA, pathological demand avoidance. Your dd displays a lot of the characteristic behaviour including the swings in sociability, lies and the obsessive ocd traits. I understand it is extremely difficult to get a diagnosis for pda but it might be worth doing some research yourself and drawing some parallels with your daughter which you can present as examples to an assessor. Pda is on the autistic spectrum.

Even without diagnosis, it might be worth trying to implement some of the strategies used to deal with a child with pda to see if improves her behaviour.

Hope it all goes well for you Squeegle on Friday. We are taking her to the gp to hopefully get her to cahms

TheTantrumCometh I understand what you mean, we don't smack as a whole and we stopped the shouting out of purr frustration that anything and now we don't even raise our voices. I try getting down to her level and if anything her behaviour seems to have gotten worse when she is told of like this. If ss put forward parenting classes, I will turn up. I won't like to but I will.

ILostIt pda is something we have looked into. She shows every sign of having that but as you say, getting diagnosed with it is so hard. We have put in place some of the strategies that pda parents use, but it still doesn't help. The calm voices, the tone of your voice, the calm neutral way we speak to her just doesn't get us anywhere. There's that part of me that doesn't have the fight anymore but I know I will carry on fighting. I've mentioned pda to the school and to ss. The school says they may get an education psychologist in to assess her if their budget can fund it.

Had a sneak peak into her bag earlier, she has stolen more pens and pencils from school (she's like a magpie with stationary stuff) buy denies stealing anything. She harped on about her P.E kit for about 20 minutes earlier "Where is it?" "Who has it?" Even though it's not until next Tuesday. And that was all because we weren't sitting with her, I was making dinner. Constantly random conversations which obviously make sense to her.
Now also, my DP took her to MIL'S last night and Dd2 was being very .... flirty (?) With DP'S Uncles. Sitting on their lap. Stroking their arms. Complaining because one uncle has a new girlfriend (this was being spoken about between DP & MIL & Brother but Dd2 has to repeat and ask what was already said - DP had spoken to Uncle and said would like to meet new gf, Dd2 "So have you got a new girlfriend? " Even though she knew he had because DP had said so....) DP & MIL say Dd2 was behaving odd towards them. Flirty almost which made uncles uncomfortable. So DP told Dd2 to sit somewhere else. Took a while but she did.
Never ending eh?!