More ructions - advice please.

[Janstar]

Yes, you've guessed it, Janstar's DD1 again. Things have been average, when she's in a good mood she is fine. When she's not no one can say a word to her without receiving a rude retort.

I got up this morning quite happy, passed her room, asked if she was going out. Yes. I asked where to. 'I already told you yesterday' 'Maybe you did but I don't know. Tell me again' (I'm quite forgetful and she knows this)

Instead of just telling me and maybe having a laugh about how senile I am instead I got a mouthful of abuse. I have been known to just walk away when she is like this cos I don't have the emotional energy sometimes. But I'm so tired of it. She talks to me, my dh and dd2 as if we were s*t. So I argued, asking her why she has to talk to us this way. The answer: 'You have a go at me all the time so I don't give a f*k any more'.

I just thought, enough. Told her she isn't going anywhere today. She can stay in her room. I thought I would give her a reason to speak to us decently and that is that if she doesn't she will be grounded in future.

I left her to cool off a few minutes and when I went back she said she was going out anyway. I said fine, I can't stop you, but if you go I am going to tidy your room how I think it should be. She also guessed, quite rightly that she wouldn't get any allowance next month.

I got all kinds of abuse from her, including she wishes I'd hit her so that I could go to prison, she hates all of us, I'm making sure she has the worst possible childhood. I said no, your father did that, and she said I'm just as bad cos I chose him. She used the f word to me again so the grounding got extended to tomorrow as well.

My brain tells me I am doing the right thing but my heart is in pieces...help! Half of me sees a rude child that needs lessons in manners before she reaches adulthood. The other half sees a damaged child who has had enough hardship from her father in the past. What would you do?

I've no idea but you have my sincere sympathies Is part of it "simply" down to raging hormones do you think?

Poor You and Poor her I remember your other thread. It probably is just raging hormones, but still, not easy to deal with at all.
My mums favorite technique for punishing me was to totally and utterly ignore me when I was being rude or ignorant or anything and it was actually quite scary. She would just totally blank me even when I was right in front of her saying mummmmmmm.
Until I had said sorry and started acting like a human being again she would just ignore me and it had me on best behavior and eggshells as it was rather unnerving as she had never hit me but her silence was more scary because of it...would she flip one day?????!!!!
Dont know if that possible for you, obviously her not speaking to me meant she didnt know where I was or who I was with but that im itself made me think OMG Ive really done it now, because when we were on friendly terms she would want to know who/where and what.
Sympathy coming your way.

One thing that my MIL mentioned to me was that she and a friend swapped homes for a weekend. Both families played by 'normal' rules, so no special treats or allowences etc. Could you set it up to do this with one of your dd's friends family?MIL said it was very educational to know that everyone's parents would tell you off about behaviour etc. For this to work you can send her to a 'let it all hang out' family.

But hugs to you, it sounds tough.

Noone gains when people treat each other without respect - and your dd should be able to acknowledge that principle!

Maybe you could agree a family rule (as a family)that everyone is respectful to everyone else even if they don't agree on things or feel that they like each other. Maybe reward yourselves as a family on a weekly basis if the week goes well - pizza or a film? I suppose I'm leaning towards asking you if you have tried family meetings?

Another idea that occurs to me is negotiation techniques - management theory could help you on this maybe eg if you do not agree, the technique is to generalise the argument until you find a place where you do agree...

HAve no teenagers myself so not sure if this advice is pertinent to your situation, just really trying to help!

Love Posy

swapping parents sounds like a great idea!

Thanks everyone. Her bf is in one of those 'let it all hang' type of families - they are good friends of ours as it happens. She spends a lot of time at their place anyway because they get lifts everywhere and they can make loads of noise all night and sleep all day. Sometimes I don't think it helps her!

We have always eaten dinner together every evening, at the table. We used to use that as talking time, but now I have a massive job to get the kids to turn the telly off, they always want to watch the Simpsons. If I make them turn it off they just sulk all through dinner anyway. Fun.

This may be a bit childish, but have you tried treating her like she treats you? Sort of like whinging back at a constantly whinging preschooler.

Then find another stricter family to swap with?

I don't have teenagers so I havent got any good avice, I'm afraid. One thing that I have found by teaching teenagers is that they always hate their current teacher. My form hated me, and 'loved' their last form teacher, right up to the point when theu got someone else and then I became the person that was great and they 'loved'. And to a degree I think that they are like this with all adults. Hang in there, it isn't personal.

MIL got a book 'Help I'm living with a teenager' and it had lots of good advice. Mostly it said you had to identify what was your problem and be firm about that, but let the rest go and let them suffer the consequences of their own actions. So if washing isn't put in the basket, let it mound up and let them smell. They soon work out what they have to do.

Stand firm about the bad language and disrespect to you. You wouldn't take it from anyone else, you don't have to take it from her.

Can you set up a videa camera and show her how she is behaving? And ask her if tshe thinks this is acceptable?

hmb, video camera, I wish, don't even have a normal camera

She hasn't made off out of the front door, anyway. She started sorting out her room. I asked if she was having a clear-out and she said, 'I may as well throw it all out if that's what you're going to do anyway'.

I've gone from feeling rotten to feeling quite amused actually - she's talking quite pleasantly now and has actually come downstairs to ice cakes with her sister. Amazing!

I always feel I am being too harsh but I've found before that if I put my foot down really hard she suddenly turns into the daughter I want. I can't work out whether it's all drama just to try and get the result she wants of if she really sees herself...whatever, I guess if it works, it works. I just wish I knew how to make her happy.

Janstar you have my sincere sympathy. I have read some of your previous thread and understand why you tread very carefully with her. But she's not being left alone to deal with her issues, she has all your support and understanding, (and counselling IIRC?). Moving forward from that has to involve beginning to take responsibility for her own behaviour, and that includes learning a few manners.
I really feel for you, it sounds incredibly hard to bear. But FWIW I think you're doing the right thing - can't see what good letting her get away with it would do, no matter what's behind it. She would on some level view you giving up discipline as giving up on her, and thats why she's doing it, to see if that point exists. So in remaining tough, your proving your unconditional love. I'm sure you know all this anyway, and I'm putting it really badly. But - you sound such a strong person, and give such amazing advice to others. I just wanted to add support when you need it, specialy since there don't seem to be all that many people about.

Oh - lots of people about now!

She just got ready to pipe a greeting on top of her cake, I said, what are you going to put, 'I Hate My Family'? couldn't resist, dd2, dh and me laughing, dd1 said Har Har very sarcastically.

Am I a bitch?

Sweatheart you are not being too harsh with her! She should live with me for a few days! Bottom line is she will push till she finds a limit. If you give in she will just push that bit further. Truth be told she probably want you to set a limit (tho she would drink acid before she'd admit it). THey like the comfort of rules, while indulging in the all time teenage passtime, whinging!

And yourslef the question , if hmb said/did this to me would I think it was out of line. And if the answer is yes squash her!

I had the most amazing bit of gossip fed back to my from another teacher a few weeks ago. I had a hellish class with lots of awful teenages. My real pain in the arse was one girl. We had stand up arguments most weeks as I tried my best to make her work, at one time she would refuse point balnk to even look at me, or the stuff I put up on the board. Not a week went by without by bawling her out, and sending her out of the room. She was in with my mate (she'd beenexcluded again!) and she told her that I was the only teacher that she respected! You could have knocked me down with a feather. In the end she wanted be to draw the line for her, and I bet that your dd want the same from you.

Be tough, you are doing a great job!

Nice to hear from you bettybloo.

Great helpful advice here everyone, thanks. I always think I am being such a cow, and I need someone else to tell me I'm doing the best thing or I doubt it all the time.

Janstar I'm afraid I did guess it was you, but it really is normal teenage behaviour - which doesn't make it ay easier to deal with.
The only reason she told you you were as bad as her father for choosing him is because she knows that that will really upset you. She doesn't really think that. I used to tell my stepmother that she wasn't my real Mum whenever we had huge arguments, even though I really felt like she was, and stil feel that because of her my life is actually so much better than it would have been if my mum had lived - it was just about getting her where it would really hurt. And it works doesn't it. YOu jsut don't have to let her see that - sarcasm and bitchiness are probably some of the best ways of dealing with her when she's horrid - far more effective at the time than shouting or trying to be reasonable

janster, I have never felt qualified to give you advice as I was a very non-rebellious teenager and I have zilch experience of being a parent to teenagers.

You sound like you are doing a great job, but are just finding it really difficult. I agree that boundaries are important and you must be firm. The very fact that your dd came down to ice the cakes shows she really wants to be with you all.

I don't know if this suggestion helps as I am saying it with my 10 year old son in mind. His behaviour was challenging, more so in the past. Anyway over the years I have had plenty of run ins with him. As suggestions go, it is a pretty common one so you probably do it already. Anyway I find that if my son shows bad attitude and total uncooperation, yes, it's important to come down hard, but I also try to avoid painting him into a corner. I think get out clauses are really important, giving my son a specific way he can back down without losing face too much. I explain if he does then he will get the thing he wants. All is not lost - there is still time for the good thing to happen if he so chooses. But if he carries on with the bad thing he is doing, then he won't get the thing he wants. Then give him space to make his mind up.

Also, I don't think it hurts once in a while to back down yourself. You have to judge this carefully, have a good reason so you can explain why this time you are ok about it, but not other times, but if you feel war is raging and nothing will bring your dd back to you, don't discount the idea of doing a 'u' turn, just when your dd least expects it, and help her do what she wants to do. It could throw your dd off centre, challenge her perception of you, make her think you are not so predictable, but in certain circumstances, this IMO is no bad thing.

Thanks, Tigermoth. My trouble is that I back down nearly every time, since I can't bear to think of her being unhappy!

I do agree with you about not painting them into a corner. It's so important that they can save face, isn't it, whatever age they are.

oh it's so difficult, isn't it? If you really do back down all the time, can you set different targets for her and you? You'll just feel bad about yourself if you don't do what you feel you should do.

And if you feel cross with yourself already, you're more vulnerable to your dd's teenage 'attitude' when she verbally attacks you. It sounds like some sort of rethink is needed, though I don't know what this is.

Janstar, can you hear me cheering from up here?

You go girl! as I believe they say in some quarters. You have done absolutely the right things as I think you can tell from the way she is behaving now.

charliecat's mum's blanking technique works very well for me on dd2 - better than shrieking, when I remember not to do that, which not only makes her worse but hurts my throat. It might not work for yours, think your cheerful jokey approach is better for her, and is certainly pulling her strings today!

Janstar, this must be a very, very difficult time for you. I can understand 100% why you don't want her to be unhappy, but is she happy even if you do back down?

hmb, you've hit the nail on the head. She NEVER seems happy with anything these days. So what have I got to lose?

Hi tigermoth and Jan. Jan I knew you would say that! Thanks. You guys cheer me up so much.

Oh, one more thing, my sister whos 21 had this sort of relationship with her mum, not mine, same dad different mums, and she had about 4 years of hell till my sister moved out, now my sisters at her mums house more often than she was when she lived there, they are always chatting on the phone, texting each other and my sisters mum says she pinches herself everyday as she cannot believe how lovely her daughter is and how they get on so well. They are both aware that under the same roof is just possible for them..they just scrub each other up the wrong way. So theres hope, even if it is 6 or 8 years away!

Oh I do feel for you, having had 4 years of a v difficult dd2, after a fairly easy dd1. I try to remember that she really hates herself more than she hates me and bashing the one she loves helps her feel a bit better- or she thinks it will but it doesn't. The bad times are getting less now and the good ones are getting better, but it is slow progress. What helps me is that I was FOUL to my mum with very few good times until I had more independence away from home and now we get on great!I was a strong character who needed space and dd2 has my genes.I could go on for ages about methods I've tried so ask if you want advice on strategies!

you were going to give her no allowence and tidy her room? how about clean the toilet or any other horrible housechores?

my teenager (14) was disrespectful i told him to go and live somewhere else and chucked him out school bag n all. he phoned at 9pm to say sorry could he come home. not a solution for you maybe but an illustration of firm boundries. today same child came home late and took other sons bike to go to school on. as we had already had a discussion as to how unacceptable was late last week, his punishment was indeed to clean the toilet. which he then asked me to inspect and i then praised him for a job well done.

Janstar - just on the father point, if it happens again is it worth pointing out that whatever the previous history (which I don't know about so this may not be appropriate - and nor do I have a teenager) it is only because of you and her father that she is around. If you'd met someone else instead of her father, she wouldn't exist at all.