Ungrateful, unpleasant thirteen year old daughter

[Dolorosa]

I've been provoked to join Mumsnet just to ask for help and advice about my thirteen year old daughter. To be honest, she has always been a little stubborn and stroppy - from a toddler - it's just her personality. She's the third of four, and pretty different temperamentally from the others.

She started turning into a teenager, I swear, at age eleven. Over the last few months, however, she has become completely unbearable. She verbally bullies her brother, who has mild autism and is getting agitated and tongue-tied around her, she is violently rude and abusive to us her parents when the fit takes her, and virtually no gathering of the family in the same room passes without some kind of nasty tantrum from her. She has also started making huge difficulties about getting out of bed in the morning to go to school (she claims nothing is wrong at school), and either refuses to go altogether (we've had the school intervene as best they can), or makes me waste half my morning running her about the place. I have to take the other two children separately then come back for her, as it's not fair to make them late because of her.

She has a snide, snarling, nasty tone of voice and will say spiteful things just to hurt us - all of us, my husband and me, her brother and sometimes even her little sister. And it's never provoked, she just seems to want to be vile. She also swears, repeatedly and unrepentantly – including in front of her much younger sister – even though I have made it very clear that this is totally unacceptable. My husband and I never use bad language, so it’s certainly not something she learned at home!

What really gets to me, however, is that she complains all the time about the house we 'force' her to live in. It's a minor manor house, set in grounds and woodland, a little under a mile from a decent village with a shop and no distance at all (a short bus or car ride) from the city where she goes to high school. She has her own, very large bedroom with her own en suite bathroom. But because we 'live in the country' we're depriving her of being able to visit her friends (I never make any fuss about driving her all about town to see her friends when she asks me to), and because our house is so big it's difficult and expensive to heat (we do our best) so it's a 'piece of crap' and the reason why she can't get up in the morning. There are reasons why we have no choice but to live here at the moment, and we also have severe financial and other anxieties as a family which I won't go into but make me hope desperately that we can continue to put this 'crap' roof over her head. All she wants, however, is that we go and live in what she calls an 'ordinary house' and she practically accuses us of child abuse by making her live where we do.

She complained this morning - as I drove her to school an hour late - that she couldn't get up this morning because of the house, and I ended up telling her that it was upsetting to me to work and worry to provide her with things, only to have her throw it back in my face. Her parting shot was, "That's because you don't provide me with much."

To be clear. She has, as I've said, her own bedroom suite. A laptop. Internet connection. iphone on unlimited contract. New clothes emblazoned with gloomy band motifs. Cash whenever she wants it to buy drinks and crisps. A home cooked meal on the table every night, not that she eats it half the time. A taxi service by me for her social life. Am I missing something?

As for spending time as a family, when she and her nearest brother were small I was forever taking them on day trips and suchlike. I did my very best. Nowadays, I couldn't contemplate organising a family outing, because my daughter would ruin it.

Obviously I do a lot of hand-wringing about what I've done wrong (other than living where we do of course). My husband and I spend pointless hours discussing her - pointless, because nothing changes, and no conversations we try to have with her amount to anything positive. It's draining, and emotionally exhausting, and I'm beginning to feel I've completely failed in the most important job of my life - to bring up a happy, pleasant human being.

I know a certain amount of teenage bad attitude is fairly common, although her older brothers were/are nothing approaching this. But has anyone else dealt with continual complaining from their children about their basic life circumstances? I feel sometimes as if I’m going mad.

You aren't enjoying a peaceful time at home so I wouldn't deprived the rest of your family a day trip because Madam likes to appear jaded and pissed off. At the same time what seems like enforced jollity can be insufferable to the person turning into a cool teen so don't expect miracles.

Seriously, how is school? Is she punishing you because she feels powerless at school? Does she get a hard time about you being comfortably off? I know, poor baby, all those nice things her beastly parents force on her! But if she is already at the stage of wanting peer approval and of hating to be different then anything like a different address or level of material comfort, or a sibling's additional needs will seem a burden to her.

Identify and latch onto positive things however minor and acknowledge them. The same thing you probably did when DD was a toddler, to give her some reason to behave well. Teens, however snarly, crave their parents' approval. Praise but not gush. If you think her older siblings could have done it better, don't let it show.

Counting her blessings would be a start but it's difficult to get that across to someone who's not listening. Try and remember to hate the sin, not the sinner.

Even if she doesn't give the impression she's listening, a lot of what you say will penetrate. May I ask, how is she in company or with other adults, is her bad mood aimed solely at her parents? The daft thing is it must be tiring for her keeping up the hostility, is there ever a time when you catch her off-guard and she's actually laughing or happy? Do you ever get the chance to do stuff with just her, beyond driving her to school and meeting her pals?

You don’t plan on giving up on her or blanking her even when she acts belligerently or swears. One way to show DD that you care is by taking part in what she enjoys. You mention buying a pony, if your DD likes horses go riding together. If fitness or exercise is something that she's expressed interest in, you can train together. It’s not the activity that matters, it’s that you convince her that you want to engage with her as an individual. If she rubbishes a suggestion don't take it to heart.

I used to get The Look if as a parent I committed the faux pas of Trying Too Hard. So keep a balance between friend and parent, don't overlook deliberate provocation but pick your battles. I agree sanctions are reasonable eg restrict her wi-fi access or socialising or cut back on her allowance/pocket money if she is persistentlying rude or bullies her brother.
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Sorry for the essay. I do think hormones and brain-wiring are partly behind this. She still needs you.

I'm absolutely not a perfect mother, surely nobody is - just trying to do my best, with each very different child. But I certainly always told her I loved her and was proud of her, all the time she was growing up. She's got a real artistic gift, for instance, and of course we encourage, praise and facilitate that - I also used to think her stubbornness would be a positive attribute, drive her to succeed in whatever she wants to do. I still think it will really! I only listed the material things she has because of her claim that we 'don't provide her with much'.

I LOVE the title of that book, it encapsulates the whole thing. :D I'll definitely get it.

My husband, who is a programmer, knows just how to cut off her internet. But MY GOD the wailing and gnashing of teeth when he attempts to pull that sanction! But what several people have said is right. We have to be a bit tougher if we want to discourage her outbursts.

Anyway, she's home now, and I feel a bit guilty about having talked about her today online... also a bit more positive now she's actually here. Of course I love her.

I think it sounds like she has some sort of problem. Maybe she's feeling down about something. I think trying to "discourage" her outbursts might just make it worse. I say this as a troubled teen - I was severely depressed, but nobody took it seriously. My parents didn't realise. I behaved awful because I felt awful. Something to think about.

Oh it's Bobo again I have seen her on many threads blaming parents for all.

Op my DD is very difficult to and I live in hope it's hormones , she does see camhs and has various forms of anger management and talking therapies. Your DD may not respond the same but I try short sharp shocks , removing things caused mayhem but she has begun giving me her phone at 10, is it possible your DD is up all night on her phone? She completely kicked against it for 10 long days but now I don't even have to ask, her behaviour has improved a bit , think she was sleep deprived! I think they want to vent and your "safe" try not to take it personally, stay calm and reward any good behaviour. DD has to give me her phone for 15 minutes if she is creating then gets it back if she is calm again she kicked against it. DD also hates our home but she wants what you have, I have a small house in town !

Dolorosa you sound like a great Mum - we all need to vent don't feel bad about that.

When I hear that school is ok, it does make me wonder whether your daughter actually responds really well to routine and boundaries..? I know they're difficult to enforce, but I wonder if that is what she needs.

Well done for doing what you're doing. It's hard work.

I think you need to get across to her that it's OK for her to be miffed about life in general, but that she needs to talk to you about it instead of at you. That it's OK for her to not like her little brother (if indeed she doesn't) but she doesn't get to be rude to him. That you very much want her to let you know what's bothering her, but that it needs to be a 2 way, respectful conversation about how it might (or might not) be possible to make it better.

As parents we take a lot of decisions that impact our children and, sometimes, for reasons outside our control, we have to take decisions our children dislike or are not right for them. DC need to be able to voice their frustrations. A lot of playing up is due to not being properly heard.

Reading your OP, I don't see many consequences. If you are near to a bus stop she can get into town & to school from, I'd be saying "we leave at (say) 7.45 & if you're not waiting by the car ready to go at that time, you'll have to get to school under your own steam" and leave her a bus pass (not cash). If you can switch the wifi off as you are leaving, so much the better. There are no consequences here, everything's going her way and throwing a wobbly gets all her priveleges back if you try (half-heartedly) to set boundaries. Seriously, time to pull the big girl pants on and be the grown up in this situation. (For the record, my sister was the same, my parents were largely ineffectual for similar reasons and it's done her no favours in adulthood - though she does seem to belatedly 'getting it' in her 40s).

I'd try to ignore constant minor grumbling - just vaguely but briskly half-agree/sympathise. Try not to take her comments about your home personally - in a few years she'll probably be proud of her home and enjoy the space. IMO at her age it's better for her to feel the natural consequences of her horrible outbursts than to impose sanctions. She will just see punishments as a way of you 'controlling' her.

I'd withdraw your favours to her if she's been horrible. If she asks for a lift for example, tell her you don't feel kindly towards her at the moment as a result of her recent outburst.

I agree with posters who have mentioned making her feel loved and valued by listening to her when she's talking to you rather than shouting or swearing. I'd add to ask her opinions on current affairs/clothes/morality etc and listen without commenting too much. And I completely agree about praising whenever possible especially for things that are peculiar to her rather than achievements.

Get her a vitamin and mineral supplement for women of child-bearing age by a good company such as Higher Nature, Bio-care, Solgar or Viridian. It will take the edge of her moods.

She sounds very wearing at the moment. My sympathies (I have a constant, low-level grumbler who believes nothing is ever his fault)

Divas and Doorslammers is also really good and gives great advice for more difficult cases.

I could have written your post Dolorosa (apart from the manor house bit). My DD(13) is similarly ungrateful and unpleasant and sometimes violent. I would advise putting her on an allowance instead of an endless supply of cash whenever she needs it. Then you can cut the allowance as a consequence of bad behaviour. And she might learn that she can't just have everything she wants all the time, and so then might value what you give her a bit more.

Sounds like you are afraid of giving consequences because of what she will do and how angry she will be. I find this difficult to, because a punishment leads to more awful behaviour and I need to keep escalating until I run out of punishments. This is difficult. But I think it is worth persevering because otherwise it could just get worse, as she realises she can get away with it. Set some rules, "If you swear in front of your sister, then you lose your phone for X hours or your allowance is cut" (or whatever) and stick to it. Write it down so that it is very clear.

As for the moaning and complaining, we get this a lot too. Just listen and empathise, try very hard to see it from her point of view and let her know that you understand how she feels. Try not to retaliate and argue back. It's tempting to argue back and tell her how wrong she is, but that won't actually change anything. There is nothing you can do about it, and it's not a crime to complain. But I know it's very wearing.

Op, have a look at the book 10 DAYS TO A LESS DEFIANT CHILD. It gives a lot of very good techniques to dealing with a child who is defiant. Most of the changes will actually come from you initially, and they will bring about changes in your child.

Some small changes, after reading through, not following the '10 days' but rather a gradual implementation, saw a lot of positive changes in our DS.

my ds is 13, and he also hates the rubbish house and horrible area we live in (at times) added to the fact that it is SOO far away from his friends. (NB perfectly nice, warm house, big garden, own bedroom, etc etc)

The issue (for him) is not the house etc it is that he is different from his friends. His friends (eg) shared a room and dad was unemployed, things were tight. ds didn't see that, he just saw that in that tiny shared boxroom was an x-box, and we didn't have one.

We have found points of compromise. For example, we bought him a good phone for his birthday, (second hand from ebay, and not iphone) so that he could keep in contact with his friends from school etc. That was a positive for him, and it was in response to one of his 'complaints' so he felt listened to.
But said phone is his lifeblood, so when there is trouble, removing it works. It also then sparks huge histrionics about how we spend all our time trying to find things to take his phone away for.

What I have found (and we are only a few months into teenage so this may not hold) is that being calm and consistent does work. We now have set punishments - not in bed on time = lose phone for x amount of time. Phone sneaked upstairs at bedtime (normally phone must be plugged in downstairs) = no phone at school tomorrow. This has taken a lot of heat out of times when we were battling (bedtime mostly) You do have to stick to your guns, decide when calm what is reasonable, and enforce, turn a deaf ear to hysterics and return phone at preset time. After a while the hysterics get less as they realise that they don't work.

I find the comments thrown out in anger heartbreaking though, and I struggle to stay calm.

My daughter is in her 20's and has a child of her own now, we are really close and get on wonderfully, but 12 - 16 she was a complete bitch, and admits it, my son once burst into tears and said he wanted to live in another house because she was so horrible, and I started crying and said I did too !!

I have no magic solution I withheld treats, I grounded her, I took her phone off her , etc, but it didn't get better till all the raging hormones had settled down, I found wine and lots of it numbed the pain, and I smoked a lot, now almost tee total and stopped smoking years ago, pretty sure it was connected to her getting more human !!

Remember she will be a parent at some point and you will be able to remind her of all of this !

What do mean when your husband attempts to change the WiFi password?
Are you both threatening things and then not doing them when she kicks off?

Sit with your husband.
Decide consequences for the things you have the most issue with.
Tell your dd.
Stick to it.

It will be shit.

I think that maybe yopu are almost too nice

And that you are trying too hard to please her, and "make it up" to her.

And ultimately, people (especially teens) don't respect people who try to please them. They give nice-but-weak teachers the hardest time. Think for example how at those crappy talent shows, the kids always try to impress the "meanie" (like Simon Cowell) and care about his judgement most.

Sad but true.

Do your own thing a bit more, and let her stew. Walk away when she starts moaning about the house/her life or be absent minded, or get annoyed and tell her to mind her manners.

I don't know, it's not easy, but it is basic psychology that the harder you try to please someone, the harder it becomes! And she clearly has no thought of pleasing you. It's too unbalanced

Good luck, like I say, not easy...

I thought I had written this post! Our daughter is 13, taken out of school at beginning of year 7 as she didn't cope too well (massive high school, shyness, teasing of autistic brother who never went to that school but boys remembered him from reception year). She wouldn't get up for school in the morning, isn't nasty to her autistic brother but doesn't bother with him either. Hates this house (it is housing assn in a pretty, but for teens very boring, nothing in it village, (nothing to walk to like a shop) semi-rural) but definitely not the middle of nowhere. Manchester 12 miles away and good public service when she is older, town is 15 mins on the bus. However when she was in primary, it wasn't far but not within walking distance where she could walk with friends. She can be extremely unpleasant at times but sometimes it is worse than others. She is fed up of home ed now and trying to get her into a school in the nearest (and our home) town but this is proving difficult as we have a small school and a large school in the two villages either side of our village. (Those villages are larger than ours with communities but we don't feel part of either). Can't help but sympathising x

I'm afraid she sounds like a right little Madam. You really need to stand up to her, and stop getting her victimise and bully you and your DH. It sounds like you live in fear of her tantrums.

I would have removed her gadgets, stopped ferrying her about and stopped her allowance long before now.

So what if she 'causes an almight row' if you remove her privileges? You might have a week or so of tantrums, but then she will have to comply and behave more pleasantly. Surely it will be short term pain for long term gain? You sound almost frightened of her, why is that?

And, I want to 100% echo what babyganoush says.

I'm afraid it's human nature that the more you bend over backward to please someone and try and curry favour with them (which it sounds like you're doing with your DD, to be honest) then that someone ends up taking you totally for granted and losing respect for you.

I think this has happened with your DD.

I do a lot of taxi-ing for our DDs (we live in a rural area too). But if I feel they're being too stroppy/sulky then I do not have a problem with hanging up my car keys for a few days...they soon buck their ideas up.

I adore my DDs, and I like to please them if I can...but never to the extent that I become a bit of a doormat for them. I have my limits and boundaries, and they generally don't cross them.

Sounds like she's been used to getting her own way for a long time and now,you're fed up of it. Get hold of the reigns and put some ground rules down and stick to them.

Do you think she's picked up on the fact you view her as always having been stroppy, stubborn and different temperamentally to your other children? And do you frequently remind her of the physical/ material aspects you provide when she's trying to tell you why she's so miserable? If she already feels like the black sheep, then alongside normal teen hormones she may not feel she'll ever be good enough so nothing to lose from being bad.

My dd has alway been stubborn

Always perfectly behaved at school but from the first week in high school she became a nightmare at home -surly, verbally aggressive, a nightmare to get out of bed, constantly 'needing' more and more 'things' and kicking off to an almighty level if she didn't get them -it was like a stranger had taken her place in the home

She was diagnosed with ASD just before her 14th birthday

Girls present very differently to boys, they are very good at masking in social situations -so school might not see an issue
Anxiety is very common and can present as aggression or being quiet and withdrawn -or in dd's case...both, within minutes of each other

You know your child -you know whether this is teenage stropy behaviour or if this is something more

Listen to your gut

OP, why do you think she kicks off when you attempt to implement a sanction or make a request? It's because she knows you find it hard to tolerate and will back down. It gets her what she wants.
The only way this is going to change is if you stick to your guns when applying a sanction or request, and cope with er wailing and stropping, it's incredibly hard (been there) but it's the only way. She'll cope and her distress will pass when she realises you're not going to be swayed.

So, a combination of sticking to your guns, plus at times outside of that, praise for positive behaviours and chances for her to air her feelings about things if she is doing so in an ok way.

OP, I've no advice but you're not the only one. We live in a lovely 1940's, 3 bed, semi (Housing Association) and my DD (12) is similar to yours. The more I give, the more she takes and nothing I ever do is good enough.

She is under CAMHS for severe anxiety and depression, and the counselling we've received has been excellent.

It's so very easy for people here, who aren't in the situation, to say "be strict" but you get into a viscous circle and bogged down and the fight isn't always there and IT IS a fight. However being calm, praising her and sticking to threats is the only way forward.

I was so blinded by my situation that I couldn't see the woods for the trees and the most obvious "stick to.your guns" was just too hard to contemplate.

Hang in there. Let the small things go, but have very clear consequences for bad behaviour (the thing with her brother and the swearing would not be tolerated here, at all). You have to stick to your guns.

Good luck.