15 year old DD wants to go vegan

[MrsMiniver]

I don't know if this is just a phase but DD seems determined to start following a vegan diet because she's horrified by the way animals are treated (be it for meat or dairy). I'd be ok if she opted for vegetarianism but I'm concerned about her not getting enough calcium, protein etc in a vegan diet.

Has anyone else experienced this or are vegan themselves? Whilst I do share some of her concerns about animal welfare and have been sympathetic, I've also pointed out that there might be health implications.

Having fed an (almost) vegan baby/toddler, no comparison to a teenager I'm sure I recommend houmous. It's high calcium and protein contains olive oil too :)
Great substitute for cheese for example baked beans and houmous on jacket potato is soo good ;)
Also tahini (I use this in sandwiches and on toast as well as houmous) is high in calcium. Peanut butter etc also high protein and really yummy.
Oh I'm hungry now
Take care and good luck!

and and slightly [sceptical] about organic farming and welfare

Lots of 'alternative' grains/cereals btw; buckwheat, millet, quinoa, amaranth.

Useful seeds, hemp, flax, pumpkin, poppy, sunflower

Barley, cassava, polenta; alternatives to wheat and potatoes.

Seaweed has lots of nutrients. Dulse comes dried and is useful as a seasoning.

Quorn is not vegan btw (not tasty either IMO).

Loads of nut butters are available. Almond, cashew (and roasted pumpkin seed or sunflower butter)

Dairy-free pesto is easy to do or find.

Most things have been said, I've been vegan for about 9 months, and veggie for about 30 years. One thing which people forget about is honey - vegans don't eat honey.

Echo what others have said about beans, pulses, nuts, etc. lots of dairy free spreads so homemade cakes/biscuits are easy to do, also soya/hazelnut/oat/rice milk are all good too.

A girl called Jack has lots of easy vegan recipes on her blog/website.

Good luck to your DD - I've never felt more healthy, our bodies aren't designed for dairy products; a cow has 4 stomachs! Not at all similar to our digestive systems. The only issue for me is eating out, the restaurant world seems to have embraced the gluten-free diet, but still has some catching up to do re: vegan diets IMO.

Hallamoo cows eat grass not milk, only baby animals eat milk and when calves drink milk they only use one of their stomachs, the abomasum which is the stomach most similar to ours.

Regardless I agree fact is we are not designed to process dairy beyond about age 5. All other mammals are the same only consuming milk in infancy.
Also feel so much healthier without dairy.

Sorry that was totally off topic. Apolegies!!

I would say fine, but she'd have to get seriously involved in shopping and cooking.

Hope she is not expecting you to figure out (and cook all by yourself) a balanced vegan diet.

I am sure a vegan diet is quite healthy.

Bees - indeed we are only designed to process milk in infancy, but we're designed to process human milk, not dairy.

Indeed

vegan is sustainable with supplementation/fortification of food.

awful lot of food miles in some of these recommended foodstuffs though, so ethics continues to be a county east of London.

Are you referring to quinoa? Palm fat?

That's true for some of them specialsubject (esp. quinoa) but not all.

Also, there's something going around FB at the moment about the number of airmiles in your food on average. I haven't investigated the origin of the picture but it is cited so you can if you like. Meat comes out at the top, unsurprisingly.

There is nothing as damaging to the planet as eating animals, so I sleep easy wrt the food miles of my veggies.

If the global impact (in terms of environmental damage) of a vegan diet was illustrated by a sheet of a4 paper, then the impact of a vegetarian would be three sheets and a meat eaters eighteen.

I am a vegan partly because I don't think we have the right to take the life of an animal for food unless it is a necessity, but more than that I believe vegans should be non-species-ist and my main reason for being vegan is for the sake of the planet and preserving the people who live on it.

Everyone is entitled to choice

You could try growing your own veg, fruit & herbs & you dont need much garden space
Herbs, lettuce, cress, sprouting seeds grow quickly
Other things need a bit more forward planning
Nothing better than home grown strawberries at this time of the year !
Excess produce can be frozen, bottled

My friend owns a diary farm. The cows live in lush green grass fields in the summer & eat home cut silage in the winter. He has local school visits where he explains about the animals & farm management. He takes great pride in his farm & is very patient with all visitors. The cows are milked twice daily 4am & 4pm. The farm is kept spotlessly clean. The farmer loves his herd and looks after their health & well being. Being a farmer is a hard way of life . Unlike other jobs, you cannot phone the cows & say I have a "cold", I cannot come into feed & milk you today ! As with any job that involves looking after animals. They take up alot of time, energy, routine, but the rewards are good.

How does lamb have a bigger footprint than beef? Salmon? Doesn't distinguish between farmed and wild.

What about the environmental effect of miles of monocultures of soya, wheat and maize in places like America? Or thirsty tomatoes grown in hot dry countries using up valuable water? Or land used for things like coffee instead of a source of calories?

It's all so horribly complicated.

The impact of soya, wheat and maize is huge, but what people forget is the vast majority of it goes to feed land animals to be slaughtered for meat not to feed vegans lol.

There are 7 billion people on the planet and every year we raise 56 billion land animal for food. We produce more than enough plant based food every year to generously feed the entire population twice over, but instead we feed over 75% of it to animals and millions starve.

Also the number one use of water in the world is livestock raised for food, tomatoes don't ever feature, really they don't, if you turned your shower on now and left it on for two months, continuously; that is how much water is in the production of one hamburger.

It's not really complicated at all, but most people do not want to consider the reality for a second, raising animals for food is the biggest environmental disaster facing the planet, it is totally unsustainable and to continue means the planet is pretty much fucked.

Happyhotel your friend sounds like a kind and considerate dairy farmer. If I could be confident that they were all like that then I might reconsider consuming dairy products (my main issue is with welfare).

And gobbler is completely right wrt the amount of vegetarian produce that goes to feed animals. We need fewer farmed animals and much higher welfare standards across the board, if we as a species are going to continue eating meat/dairy/eggs.

Also for biofuel gobblers?

I take my hat off to vegans, I really do. And feel very bad that my many food intolerances - including nuts, pulses, egg (white), white fish, salmon and dairy increase my consumption of meat (and quinoa). I also have slight blood sugar issues so I don't see how I could possibly have a vegan diet.

From a general health pov, my understanding is that the optimum diet would consist of nuts, seeds, small amounts of whole grains, sea plants, fruit and veg( obviously) and small amounts of organic lean meat, poultry, eggs and fish.

I sometimes wonder about eating insects eg locusts as an (occasional) alternative to meat - (provided they weren't cooked in soy sauce and/or yeast!). I don't know how they're farmed though or the environmental impact.

From an environmental pov I assume the optimum diet would be mostly organic, locally-sourced food comprised of my second main paragraph.

Don't feel remotely bad for that rogueantimatter, you have to look after yourself first! I agree with you on the general health point (although I'll leave out the animal-derived components for my own consumption)

My feeling is that if everyone adopted the kind of diet you describe (and importantly, if the food production industries adapted to this much lower demand) then the state of the planet would significantly improve.

Less meat demanded > less meat produced > less need for intensive farming > fewer animals > less food needed for animals/poultry/fish --> more food/agricultural resources available for struggling humans.

A huge proportion of humanity struggle to feed themselves because a much smaller proportion can't imagine a world where they can't have steak on demand. That is horrifying.

Obviously other problems exist (climate change) but it's thought that the vast number of intensively farmed animals contributes to the rate of climate change anyway. Local-scale corruption is another issue but I have no idea how to fix that.

HappyHotel if I could buy milk direct from your friend's farm, I'm sure DD'd drink it! Does anyone have any idea how to get hold of milk from cows that we know for sure are treated humanely? I know that Sainsbury's for eg put on all their milk that animal welfare is taken seriously but I assume that can be taken with a pinch of salt.

Depending on where you are, there are different sources - here is one near Watford: www.ahimsamilk.org/ahimsa-milk/

a cow has 4 stomachs! Not at all similar to our digestive systems.

That's so they can digest cellulose from plants, which we can't do, so is the wrong argument against eating dairy.

But cow's milk is especially designed for baby, er, cows - not humans.

Sadly the cruellest part of the dairy industry is the constant enforced pregnancy, the removal of the babies from their mothers and the fact that a dairy cow has a life expectancy of around four years before she is too knackered to go on.

There is no such thing as ethical dairy.

Yes, Hallamoo, but that's not why they have the stomach system they have. They have the stomachs they have so that they can eat grass. There are many good reasons to avoid cow's milk (I don't but I eat very little dairy, anyhow) but that aspect of the configuration of bovine intestines is not one of them.

MrsM if you're trying to source high welfare meats/dairy then I think a farm shop or local butcher who knows the farmer is best.

However it's true most male newborns are shot at birth, the animals are still farmed and slaughtered. So depends on your daughters stand point on things. Goats milk is the same.

soya/koko/oat are very nice and nutritious too. The alternatives are very good except for cheese I think although vegusto is nice.