How hard to you punish 'stupidity'?

[pasanda]

I have just received a call from the headmaster of DS's (13yr old, Yr9) school.

DS has written explicit words on the cover of a friends homework planner. e.g. I love boys, wanker, cunt, I am gay etc etc. He has obviously been caught.

DS was in the head's office when he called me and he was put on the phone to me. I asked him if it was a friends book. It was.

I know DS. He will think doing it was a joke. Apparently the friend thought it was a joke. Basically boys being silly boys. And not thinking of the consequences of being silly. The teenage brain and all that...

As far as I am concerned, it was a stupid thing to do. A stupid thing to do, for which he then got caught. (If he had done it on someones book whom he doesn't like, as a nasty thing, I would be thinking differently btw).

The head told me he was extremely close to an 'exclusion' but as it is, he will be put in isolation for two days. And he hopes I will enforce serious consequences at home. I have called his dad and told him (he doesn't live with us, but good relationship etc) who thinks his phone (ds's lifeline!!) should be taken off him for two weeks.

I am more of the opinion that he is being adequately punished at school (and I know will have been bricking it in the heads office!). I will take his phone off him for tonight, have a good chat with him about it all and then move on.

I am not going to tell my dh because as it is he thinks I am 'weak' with 'no boundaries' with ds when afaic I try to do the trying to understand and then talk approach, rather than the bollocking, sanctions, ranting and raving approach.

Any advice…?

So Child A can scrawl, say, 'Filthy Yid' over Child B's textbook and Child B doesn't mind. So it's fine. Everyone's happy.

Except in the meantime Child C who witnesses this is Jewish. What do they think and feel?

Or Child A scrawls the same thing over Child D's textbook, thinking Child A didn't mind. But Child D does mind. Very much.

(I'm Jewish by the way. Which is why I have chosen this particular example.)

Exactly, Fleurdelyse.

My DD is sensitive and considerate but, like a lot of teenagers, she repeats things she's heard without always thinking about (or knowing) what they mean. Which is why I needed to explain to her that it's un-feminist to refer to someone as a 'douche-bag'.

The Head's behaviour is shocking, though. Whether he lost control or was deliberately intimidating, he disgraced himself and in my view he owes your son an apology.

Fleur, that's what I was trying to say.
Teens that age can be bloody idiots, so long as no harm was meant, no major punishment is needed, but an explanation that words can hurt, and that someone who doesn't know them might think they are homophobic, so don't use that languge as an insult, they are cleverer than that.
I know punishing dd majorly for that when she was being stupid, rather than nasty would not get her listening to me at all.

Does the school know about the self harming part? Because if they do more so the head should have approach this in a different way.

Marianne I have two colleagues at work from Indian decent. Their jokes to each other are very much directed to each other's skin colour. Who is darker and so on. As an adult I know these jokes are just between the two of them and I should not engage in such jokes even when it goes to asking opinions in a joking manner.

However if my 13 yo would hear their jokes he would probably be straight in there engaging. Because they are still learning. And this was a valuable lesson for OP's DS but it could have been handled in a better way by the adults.

Ive been through hell and back with DD, because of SH. I'm a much more chilled and tolerant parent as a result. I have very strong negative thoughts and feelings towards that HT. I think you should majmake a serious formal complaint against him for

A) deploying aggressive behaviour ( shouting and throwing the planner across the room) as this is inappropriate behaviour from an adult in any school.
B) Accusing your son of homophobia which is a very serious accusation to level at a vulnerable teenager.
C) Threats of expulsion which are completely over the top.

If it matters, I think what your son did was terrible and the head should nip that in the bud, yes, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that school.has far, far more serious problems than this if he loses it over a few scribbled swear words on a school book!

Bottom line: your son's mental health is more important than some sensitive teacher reading the word 'cunt' or 'I'm gay'. Yes your son should be told off and made to buy a new planner but not isolated or have to witness an adult losing their temper like that. No wonder he doesn't like it.

I'd be looking at other schools for him.

I would so love to comment on this thread about the incredibly low expectations of 13 year olds some people seem to have, but I am very conscious of the OP's child's fragility...I suppose another thread would be zapped as a TAAT............

I do not have a low expectation of my 13yr old, I take her as she is, and work with her, stupidity included.
This is a 13yr old who is my carer, who has explained disability to her friends, whose friends accept me after dd's explanations, and who will happily push me around town in my wheelchair, knowing we will bump into her friends.
She's daft at times though, and I explain, and I believe in her, and I tell her how she is more intelligent than sillyness, because she is, but a harsh punishment wouldn't get her onside.
I think about what I want as the outcome and go about achieving it, and this is the way to do it with her.

Hakluyt - I think, from what I can gather from this thread, if I did punish/reprimand ds as you may do your child, it would really not serve any purpose. In fact, it may do more harm than good.

This does not mean I have low expectations of him. I guess I am just realistic when it comes to his behaviour. And yes, right now, he is fragile (and thank you for appreciating that).

I called the school this morning to ask that they keep an eye on him during the day in isolation, as he has, more recently, hurt himself whilst at school with his own nails, including whilst in the heads office yesterday.

I spoke to the head of pastoral care and behaviour and she couldn't have been more lovely. Really reiterated that by Monday it will all be forgotten and he won't be tarred with a brush so to speak. I told her that ds (and others who self harm) have acquired blades from the boxes of sharpeners in the art rooms at school and she is going to ensure that they are kept in a locked cupboard from now on. She had no idea this was happening (and nor did I until I read his phone detailing how easy the plastic sharpeners are to get the blades out of ).

She said she would have a word with the head about him self harming last night. I'm glad. They really need to know that how punishment is dealt with (for ds at least) does really affect his mental state.

Today, ds got through isolation no problems and actually said the head was 'really nice to me, and told me that on Monday to forget about it all and move on'. So that's good.

Ds also saw his psychotherapist this evening who apparently wants to involve the school and needs my consent to do so. So that's good too.

I really appreciate all the comments, it's helped me keep it all in perspective.

Exactly brillohair. He was being stupid, not nasty.

I don't think I will ever approach the head to get him to apologise. I think he thinks intimidation tactics will work.

They may do on some kids, but not on others.

Like I said, he really needs to read 'Get out of my Life'…

where's Heyho when you need her!

Thank you FrankieFrog

I think you are being very sensible - and keeping a sense of proportion. sadly mass schooling often has the effect of distancing us from our children in that we are separated from their artificial world (where young people are dumped together with very little input from anyone outside their peer group). Plus the teachers make out that it is all sooo important. In fact when you analyse it - as Pasanda has here - their agenda is more to do with their own convenience...
Keep those lines of communication open with your son! Perhaps share your relevant experiences and have a bit of a discussion if the occasion arises. My two know all my school days 'stories'.

You are welcome.

I would not let my children go to a school where the leadership use intimidation as a first wave of attack for any bad behaviour from pupils. They should be leading by example, and encouraging the pupils to set a good example too.

My DCs are a bit older...Some sensitive children will do all they can to leave a school like that, including sabotaging their own academic results so they can stop being a part of the problem. Some of DCs friends are still like that 5 years on and are still very unhappy.

I don't understand why people insist to think that allowing your child the benefit of a doubt, giving him/her a chance to apologise/repair their mistake is having low expectations.

My DS is actually very well behaved thank you very much, with all my low expectations, but he also knows that if he makes a mistake he can find home a way to communicate and the opportunity of a dialogue rather than a mother prepared to jump at his mistake and punish.

pasanda I am so glad it sounds all positive now. I hope your DS will get happier and stop the SH completely

Pasanda- I said that your child is in a different place to, for example, mine. He is obviously fragile and going through challenging times. I did say that my initial post would have been different if I had known more about him.

But I stand by my "low expectations" post. Of course teens make mistakes and need to be able to learn from them and move on and know they will have the full support of their parents while they do it. But if my 13 year old (who does not have the additional stresses that your child does) wrote that sort of stuff on somebody else's planner then yes, I would be amazed, horrified and disappointed if he then said "it was a mistake, I didn't realize I could upset anyone by writing that".He's 13, not 7. But as I said, none of this applies to your child, who is obviously fighting other demons, and I wish home well.

And it's nothing to do with "mass schooling". It's about emotional intelligence and consideration.

I would suggest its important that the school understand from you that he did it partly because 'gay' and' I like boys' as an insult is being used amongst younger boys , who , if they are not helped to understand the consequences to their peers will continue to use insults like this - and misogynistic comments. It is a problem in schools and very different from swearing. An appropriate school reaction might have included, a talk arranged for your DS's year, on the implications on others of using language in this way . Its 2015 and schools could do more.....

Whilst I fully understand that the OP's DS has problems I cannot believe that he has not had numerous PHSE lessons/assemblies about appropriate language, bullying. He must have known he was using deeply unacceptable language and ,since in most schools planners have to be out on desks, putting his friend in a position where he could be ridiculed. The fact he is vulnerable at the moment does not stop him having to be sensitive to others. However that is the conversation the HT should have had with him rather than the shouting.

I have a 14 and a 15 year old and they both have known for a number of years that using language like that described in the OP is totally unacceptable. If either of my two had done something similar at 13 I would have come down on them like a ton of bricks. An excuse of 'all my friends do it' would not have cut it, I would have just told them that their friends were equally behaving inexcusably (and absolutely removed a phone that was being used for that type of conversation!). These are not conversations to have with 13 year olds surely? This is primary school crap and should have been addressed and sorted several years ago.

Both my children have had homophobic slurs made to them, and as it happens whilst ds is probably straight dd is bi-sexual (although not really aware of that when the slurs were made). This stuff really hurts children, please don't laugh it off as kids being kids, or being unable to know that it causes pain to others (whatever their sexuality), they are well aware that it does, and that it is a form of bullying.

Having said that the OP's ds is obviously in a very difficult place and maybe acting out as a result. He obviously needs a nurturing approach, and I hope very much that things get better for him.

Can I just point out that ds was not bullying one of his best friends when he did this. His friend thought it was funny. It did not 'cause pain' to him.

If he had done this on a book belonging to someone who was not his friend, or if he did in on someones book who he thought might be gay and he was therefore taking the piss, then yes, my approach would have been very different.

I cannot 'police' my ds when he is at school, out and about with friends, in the park etc. They swear! Fact. 'Using language like that'?? I'm sorry, but if you think your 14 & 15 year olds don't ever swear then I think you are being a bit naive.

Pasanda, why would your approach have been any different? Surely using being gay as an joke/insult is wrong in any circumstance? And the fact that the HT found out shows that it wasn't just your ds and his friend who saw the planner (unless either the friend or his parents reported it) so how do you know that a gay pupil didn't see it as well?

I think I'd be a bit harder on your ds tbh. from the text msge on bus to the 'my friend didn't mind' to the headmaster throwing stuff.... I think I'd be slightly more questioning than you. In terms of the self harm it sounds as if there is a group doing that in school- I'd want to know is his self harm more to do with being in this group or because of personal issues.

Have you talked to the friend's mum yet?

I would expect any 13 year old boy, whether he felt bullied or not, to respond to the perpetrator that he thought it was a joke. That is how he would protect himself if he felt he was being bullied. I think the OP needs to accept that what her 'sensitive' DS did was nasty. It is important that her DS learns that such comments are hurtful and unacceptable. If not to the 'friend' maybe but to other pupils in the school. Plus cunt is generally perceived as unacceptable so he needs to learn this now.

Personally I would be more angry at them using statement such as 'i like boys' and 'gay' as insults. they will grow out of such childish things (my DD and friends have favorite book quotes doodles everywhere) but they need to be taught what is socially acceptable and what not