17 year daughter just won't do as asked, feel bullied in my own home

[febel]

Hi, just wanted to know what I should do....if anything?!! We have major issues/power struggles or call them what you will with our 17 year old YD. She is immature in that she doesn't discuss things, but just does exactly what she wants, even if we have asked her not to.

A few examples...petty though they may seem to you..from this week

*She made her lunch whilst I was at work (ignoring the lunch I had left for her at her earlier request...leaving husband and MD on short rations) Left mess in kitchen, inc dirty saucepan in sink. When I got in late from work, after I'd walked dog (she hadn't) asked her to wash pan, particularly as she had invited her boyfriend to tea. She was on her I pad upstairs and refused. I said I didn't see why I should make tea if she wouldn't wash one pan. In the end she nipped down and wiped (literally) round it, leaving cheese sauce all round the bottom. Then said she'd done it. Cue me showing her that she hadn't. Cue her saying,"Do it yourself then if you want it doing so much" and laughing in my face. I walked off saying I wouldn't cook tea , she phoned boyfriend, and went out with him, to his house, although did clean pan beforehand. Attitude didn't change though, she still thought she in the right and I was being petty. Was I?

*Picked her up twice this week late (one 12.45am) Always asking her to remove shoes before go upstairs (cream carpet) as we all do in general ( two elder sisters, me and hubby) She doesn't. Ever. Even if asked to

*Rule is, however draconian you may think it is, mobile phones outside when asleep. Can be just outside door, but outside, until obviously 18 years old. Rule was there for a reason (won't go into it now, but too much activity on mobiles at night) She has just not bothered doing it this week and says she is 17 and having it in her room. Before now I have turned the wifi off on her phone (Tesco do this) I am dreading doing it again as there will be a huge row...again. She hasn't even discussed not leaving it outside as she says there is no point. I have said that tonight we can discuss it in front of her dad and I will agree but she says there's no point

I feel everything is a power struggle and I don't want it to be. She has taken the car keys with her too I think as she laughed

Stand up to her. I assume you pay for the phone, so get it switched off. If she keeps leaving shoes on, take them away. She is taking the piss and showing you no respect at all.

Footnote, found the keys, very well hidden, spares and normal. How COULD she...just because she was late and had missed the bus and was cross I wouldn't turn out and take her (have a migraine anyway, not sure up to driving)
If turn phone off she will go ape sh~t...also we won't be able to get hold of her? Safety? Yes, I do pay for it (mug on my forehead cos didn't pay for her two sisters phones at that age) Have texted her and told her to grow up or get out, she shows us no respect or love.

You have to mean it though as it's white noise otherwise. DON'T go out late and collect her and next time don't give her warning just turn the phone off.

I would say though the saucepan wouldn't bother me but I would have asked her to make tea with her boyfriend and clean up at the same time. I also wouldn't ask my son to leave his phone outside the door (he is the same age) pick your battles.

Why are you dreading standing up to her? She's a child, you're the boss!

I'd take the phone off her, get her a cheap PAYG and put the first £10 on it. After that, it's up to her. Lazy. She should get a job! I had 3 at that age, no way would my mother have put up with this kind of behaviour. She's walking all over you! Has she always been like this?

Oh. And stop trying to be her friend (reading between the lines) She's supposed to hate you, she's 17 , if she doesn't tell you that even occasionally, you're doing it all wrong!

She is showing you ZERO respect
How is she funded?
You pay her phone bill, right?
What about going out monies, clothes, makeup, music etc?

Does she have a part time job? Is she studying?

Who does her laundry? I'm guessing not her...

If she can't pull her weight and contribute to the home then you are under no obligation to give her monies for luxuries or to let her have a 'phone (it is possible to survive without a phone and "safety"? Please she won't need it if she's got no money to go out with!)

You're worried about a row?
She shouts at you?
It's just noise. Blank her until she can talk civilly.
She slams her bedroom door?
Loose the door.
Upstairs in shoes?
The shoes in question are gone (shove them in the attic)

Treat her like you would a 2yr old. Always follow through on your consequences, explain expectations and reasons before punishing and only speak with when calm.

If she lays hand on you then either discuss assault when she's calm or have a pcso explain it to her.

But I'm a horrible cow.

We have a 17 year old DD too
Lazy , and entitled . Sullen and unpleasant .
And then , lovely ,smiley friendly and chatty
She's at school , and has a part time job .

But Oh the mess , the demands , the spendthrift ways and the impossible dreams .

If she's rude to me ( not often , luckily ) I just say to her ( in a calm voice )
I don't appreciate being spoken to like that , when she's in a better mood and can talk in a polite way , she can speak to me again

Not great help I know , but you're not alone

There needs to be negative consequences for her of behaving badly. The loss is the teacher.

She doesn't respect you because she sees you as a pushover. You really need to be prepared to take action and follow through.

I would outline some consequences for her, and I wouldn't pay for privileges if I didn't feel respected.

At 17 my mum had left, leaving me and my brother with my dad, who worked away most of the week. I did my own cooking, washing, cleaning, ironing etc etc and still managed to get myself to school on time! She seems to be behaving like a much younger teen.

I think the only way I get through to her would be to stop doing the things you do. There's no point picking her up at all hours then moaning that she doesn't appreciate it etc, just don't do it. Tell her that until she becomes an active member of the household, helping with how it's run, then she isn't entitled to the privileges of being part of that household.

No phone at night does sound draconian at that age but it sounds like you have your reasons. Switch the wifi off and don't engage. When she kicks off, just calmly say 'you knew the rules, you didn't obey them, this is the consequence'. Like a pp says, treat it as white noise.

I understand that it's the attitude and the spitefulness that's the most difficult to deal with, i.e hiding your keys. I would be absolutely fuming at that but to be honest I don't know what you can do about it, other than banning all lifts to/from anywhere!

Teenagers seem to need boundaries and consistency in exactly the same way as toddlers. Even if it seems to be the opposite, she actually subconsciously wants you to set up those boundaries for her to kick against, but they'll also enable her to feel secure as she grows up and becomes independent.

You tell her calmly - at a point when you're not in direct conflict - the things she does that are not acceptable. Then you tell her what the consequences will be next time she does the same thing, and for how long this consequence will last. Give her a single chance to get it right. Then implement the consequence immediately. Especially with the phone you need to get that sorted now before she hits 18. Any rudeness results in immediate withdrawal of all privileges, unless she apologises in full.

While you're coming down tough, you could also appreciate that so much is changing in teenager's brains as they grow up that they are very forgetful and disorganised for a reason - my 16yo genuinely forgets all sorts of things, and then apologises when, eg she's forgotten to take her shoes off once more. But understanding the background to her behaviour does not mean tolerating it.

When does she actually turn 18? Presumably she's in education/training and will continue to live with you, right? At that point you need to establish a slightly different set of rules based on mutual respect for property. If she damages your carpet she has to repair the damage. At 18 she's old enough to get a part-time job which will finance a new phone, at which point she can determine what to do with it. If you continue to pay for the phone/Internet then of course you have a say in when it is used. 18-year-olds need to be VERY grateful for any lifts they get.

I also have a 17 YO DD and know how you feel!! Mine switches from lovely one minute to entitled and verbally abusive the next!! Also does things like your DD did with the car keys to make us late!!

I let mine have phone in bedroom but wifi is switched off at the very latest 12. If mine is extremely rude I don't cook her dinner and she can make her own sandwiches. Also not get lifts, not have wifi etc if she is disrespectful.

Mine now has a p/t job so pays for stuff herself which is good as pays for own phone. But I still have control of wifi! She has to learn that is a priveledge and has to respect us. She also knows to continue living here (she is almost 18) she has to respect us and the rules or she will be shipped off to live elsewhere!

Give her a choice. Live by the house rules or move out.

Teenagers need putting in their place sometimes if they're getting out of hand. If you let them take the piss then they get used to doing it.

I disagree with people saying stand up to her etc. all that is going to happen is she battles harder with you and world war 3 erupts with no conclusion apart from a miserable house.
She is swinging between a child and adult. She needs you but recents needing you as she feels that she should be independent. Trying to find her feet causes her to resent you even feel hate towards you. This is normal. All adolescents go through this to different degrees.
You need to keep asking her to tidy up but don't expect her to do it. Do it yourself. As you have asked her that request stays in her brain. As she matures. Can take a couple of years she recalls the rules and will one day do it without you asking.
You can set sanctions, shout and argue. This will not help.
Read a book on adolescent psychology. Get out my life but first take me and Alex to town. I read this one. There are others. It helped me loads. I understand and appreciate what's happening and deal with it better. I now live in a calm house and I can now see a difference in her.
I can't recommend it highly enough.

We had this problem, and coming down hard just resulted in screaming and shouting.

Somebody else has mentioned that at this age teen brain and hormones are really all over the place and they say and do things without thinking, and they struggle to relate consequences to their actions.

You do feel like you have no ultimate sanction in a traditional parent/child type way.

We managed to move past this point by explaining why the things we asked for were important to us.

Being home was about safety and reassurance, and also because we had to get some sleep for work. We agreed home times for week nights and different times at weekends, parties etc were more flexible.

The other things were put in the context of her growing up and taking responsibility for herself. if she wanted a lift home it was at the agreed time or not at all.

Sounds a bit black and white, but there are grey areas, and it didn't work overnight. But just keep reminding her.

I have noticed on recent teen threads that there are two schools of thought, poles apart. Some very angry, confrontational, aggressive even, responses. We are supposed to be the adults, yelling ultimatums is for teenagers.

Agree with Heyho111 and LeftHandedMouse. Battles will only escalate this.I'm a firm believer in negotiation and also trying to explain why, in an emotional rather than practical sense, her behaviour is a problem.

I would think very differently if she was 14 but at 17 she is almost an adult and may well be off to uni in a years time. No one will make her leave the phone outside the room then.

I think you need to discuss ways of changing things with her rather than applying sanctions as you would for a younger teen. Get her to agree to some compromises and an improvement in attitude in return for some concessions on your part.

You don't have to go into battle to be firmer. As said earlier, at a time when there is no conflict, introduce the new rules/consequences. Don't engage with the anger that will follow. You are the adult. Its not fair that everyone else follows the house rules. All you need next is for her behaviour to be copied. I learned on MN that you don't have to attend every argument that you are invited to. Thats my mantra now, keeps me sane.

Replace iphone with cheap phone. No pocket money/clothes/lifts unless she earn it. She does something for the house, you repay by giving her a lift. Aim to work as a team

Also she probably feels cast as the black sheep and is living up to your opinion. What nice things do you do together? Do you tell her you live her or give her cuddles?

I also have 'first take me and Alex to town' and it is good but in no way should you tolerate vrbl abuse or disrespect. Tutting/answering back to a certain level, yes. Calling you a f*ing bitch in front of younger kids, no. Being a teenager is no excuse to abuse parents., however maybe let the minor stuff go (phone out of room, tidy room, shoes unless muddy etc) and tackle the abuse, hiding keys, coming home times etc. They have to learn to respect others ready for when they leave/uni/work etc.

Thank you so mch..re the phone outside, I was going to leave go of that rule, but she won't even discuss it, just does as she wants. I am uneasy with sanctions cos I feel they escalate the bad feeling and arguments.....but then why should she be able to do and speak to us EXACTLY as she wants ....her sisters didn't, and don't. But no sanctions means doesn't give her a good message I feel. I have read all the books mentioned...we have had a rough couple of years. I feel underneath she is very unhappy....but she won't talk , all I get is shouting and aggression.

figgieroll....yes, we do...or we would if she'd let me. She doesn't want to go out with me...would rather see boyfriend or stay in or see friends. Used to do a lot together and used to be a lovely girl...but not for past few years. it's not just me who thinks this, my dad has actually told my mum that he doesn't like the way she speaks or treats me...and my mum says she has changed, she seems tense and wound up a lot of the time. when she goes out she won't accept lifts, would rather walk (is she going where she says....who knows cos I don't know her friends and she has gone to lengths to ensure I don't know where they live either)
She has shut us out of her life...and I know teenagers do this to a certain extent, she is my third, but she has done it even more than her sisters.. Personally I think she has mental health problems and we have gone to the doctors twice when she was at rock bottom, but to no avail and was angry at me then for encouraging her to go because they just made her feel like she was wasting their time. She is an anxious and unhappy angry person I feel and we are at our wits end.

Poor you. It's tough. It really us, when they are like this.

I think there is exaggeration here about the two schools of thought. I favour consequences but not yelling and shouting.I read a book myself some years ago which may help you a little, but sadly I can't remember the author. He suggested a technique for you of keeping two lists in your head- her issues and your issues.

I used imagine them like two buckets or baskets. Everything which comes up as an issue or problem, you ask yourself whether that affects her life or yours too? Eg if they don't want to study that's their issue- the consequences come naturally. If they are rude then want a lift, that's yours. Your car, your time. That's the consequences in the real world too.

You can't control her bad decisions at this age. If she is to learn it may be better to back off from commenting in them- it will give her the space in which to bring you her worries. Easier said than done, I'm clear about that!

But you can certainly control what you tolerate in your life, and in your home, or with your money.

In other words, don't have the power struggle. Give her power over her own life but make sure you have power over yours too.

Hugs.

What is it with MN and phones, let it go!

Stop trying to micromanage teens and just maybe they'll treat you with a bit of respect!

And arguing over one pan, get a fucking dishwasher.

Honestly it's just not worth it! Fight over petty stuff and she'll continue to hide what really matters.

What is it with MN and phones, let it go!

Yeah, it's bizarre. Leave aside all the "you're paying" and "it's your house" arguments to justify the parents' "rights", in what world does worrying where a 17 year old keeps their phone at night not make you look unhinged? How does getting into a fight with an adult about what they do with their phone ever end well, given its only basis is as a demonstration of arbitrary power?

I think you're putting down far too many rules and trying to enforce them. Of course she'll kick back at rules which she thinks aren't fair. My kids all all well grown up now but I chose my battles and waited until we were all calm before discussing issues. The dirty pot wouldn't have bothered me, that's why we have a dishwasher. Even if we didn't it would have taken me two minutes to clean it properly. Kids live on their phones, that's teenagers for you. The only rule we had was do not use it while eating at the table. All of our kids drove and had their own cars at 17 so we didn't need to be a taxi service. It also gave them independence and freedom. I don't agree with treating young adults like toddlers, that solves nothing in my view. At 17 they are finding their independence and I think you have to allow that to happen.