Lies and lack of remorse

[Jinkers01]

Small bit of background...13 year old son is chronically forgetful, but has been trying harder thus school year to be organised. On Monday he told me that he'd been to music lesson at lunch time at school, which he has frequently forgotten before. Lots of praise from me...last night I found out from friend that music teacher is off and that he'd therefore lied. He had apparently gone to play football,and laughed in my face about it. I have banned him from internet and Xbox for ONE day, and he's beyond angry. DH clearly thinks I'm being harsh on his darling boy. I think it's a reasonable punishment, but what do others think?

the parents who have the most problems are (IMO/E) generally the ones who, for one reason or another, try to keep too much control over their teenagers totally agree flow

The art of parental 'control' is surely having the ability to stand back, knowing when and how much control to hand over during DC's gradual transition to independence?

Flow,
if you don't mind me asking - when your DS went off the rails with his out of-control-anger, aggression, stealing (I read quite a few posts of you), do you you think you were trying to control him too much?

Or do you think all of that would not have happened, if you had controlled him less?

From reading your posts I always had the impression that you were a very laid-back parent. So, if over-control is the problem, how do you make sense of your experience?

By the way, I do like your very kind long and compassionate responses that you write frequently.

amum - "The art of parental 'control' is surely having the ability to stand back, knowing when and how much control to hand over during DC's gradual transition to independence?" Yes, that's the ideal... But I doubt many of us manage it!

Palika - " When your DS went off the rails with his out of-control-anger, aggression, stealing... do you you think you were trying to control him too much? Or do you think all of that would not have happened, if you had controlled him less?" Well, I certainly think he was fighting for independence and autonomy, and I wasn't giving him as much as he wanted. I also think I was considerably more 'strict' and controlling than his peers' parents...

But I couldn't possibly say things 'wouldn't have happened', because there were factors at play like anger issues, learning issues, drugs, social environment and personality that would have been there however 'strict' or 'laid back' I was.

There is a difficult relationship between behaviour and control, of course, because if children are 'wild' (as my DS1 always was) then the 'concerned' parent is more inclined to try to rein him/her in. A lot of parenting - including attitudes to lying - is strongly influenced by our fears about our children 'going bad', I think.

But most of all I emphasise (and if you have followed my previous posts, you will have heard me say this before) that a 'challenging' child is not a sign of a 'bad' parent. The parents of challenging children who post here on MN have (by and large) tried everything. Luckily for me, I have a DS2, raised in a similar way, who is a fantastic 'model child', and living proof that it wasn't my fault that DS1 behaved badly.

All of that is a bit of a diversion from Jinkers' original post - sorry! Fwiw Jinkers, that would annoy me hugely too, and I don't think you're being unreasonable...

Please don't apologise for diverging from my original post- there are such a lot of interesting ideas about parenting teenagers on this thread now! A quick update - DS has recovered from the "hell" of a day without internet, and we have had a long talk about integrity etc. I think I will have to control my reaction next time he does tell me about something he's forgotten or lost- if I blow my top he might think it's easier to lie, and hope he gets away with it.

Could it be related to the age of the child? I think flow's children are older? Clearly, punishing an older teen for lying would be controlling; but at 13 it's more about teaching them to take the right decisions - kids lie at least partly because they know they have made the wrong decisions.

You want them to learn to internalise that conscience - if they are used to lying to parents about things they think they won't like, they are avoiding that process - they have not moved on beyond doing the right thing being purely to please the parents. So it is logical to then think that not upsetting the parents by admitting they've done the wrong thing = doing the right thing, because the parents haven't been upset.

They need to understand that they need to behave properly because it's right and that lying as well does not make a wrong thing better - it makes two wrong things. At least not lying about is and having the courage to own up to stuff is one important step forward.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense bread - I think my lack of confidence in my own judgement in my original post probably relates to overly controlling and punitive parents when I was an older teenager. I still have a rather pathetic need for my parents' approval, which I certainly don't want DS to have.

Interesting, jinkers. I think I'm a bit similar in terms of lack of confidence in my own judgements re parenting (hence lots of lurking on here) though in my case I think it's fear of getting into battles with my children if I am too harsh v fear of...? - don't know - flow's suggestion of fear of kids 'turning bad'? - if I'm not harsh enough.

Why is this parenting lark so tricky and non-instinctual? Oh for the unblemished confidence of older generations...

as I am saying...most people are afraid of imposing discipline and err on this side rather than on the side of being over-controlling.

'Most people' might well, Pal. What I said was that the parents who have the biggest problems seem to be those who need to let go a bit and help their teens to learn to control themselves.

I think discipline, control and punishment are three very different things. I have pretty good discipline, I tend to over-control and (these days anyway) I almost never punish my DS. My own over-control comes out in over-nagging, reminding, “suggesting”, jumping in to organise things for my DS and asking too many questions – my DS is mostly pretty honest but I know that lying is a potential consequence if I overdo it.

I am trying to find the right balance between leaving my DS to organise himself, versus wanting to protect him from the consequences if he doesn’t. I do try to ask my DS if he wants me to nag him e.g. over homework, he usually says yes but I respect a “no”. At the moment I am thinking that I need to let him get more stuff wrong rather than jumping in to sort things for him, or nagging him to sort them out. However when he was younger his distress and agitation when things went wrong would make him aggressive (he has some SN) and I’m reluctant to go there again so it’s a bit of a minefield for me. Ah well, it’s never going to be perfect!

(Not suggesting my experience is especially relevant to your situation Jinkers – I agree your punishment for that lie was completely reasonable, and so is not going OTT when your DS forgets things)

Flow
what do you make of programs like 'the world strictest parents' and 'brat camp'? These are teens with the 'biggest problems' - their parents are totally at their wits end and not capable or willing to impose strict discipline.

Then these kids enter very structured disciplined environments where even the slightest disobedience is met with painful consequences (in balance with supportive conversations) and bingo! these kids turn a corner and come back reformed (at least most of them, unless the tv programs totally lie, which I do not believe)

And here is another food for thought:

I used to work in a home for badly behaved teens (I myself was only 19 years myself, it was voluntary work for a year) and what I saw there were three types of teachers/social workers:

-democratic ones who appealed at the compassion and maturity of the teens to behave better

• strict ones who imposed a lot of consequences
• and totally authoritarian ones who were extremely strict.

With who do you think the teens behaved best? Absolutely clearly with the authoritarian one. T

And who do you think they loved most? Totally, totally the authoritarian one as well. When she even came up the stairs for her shift they all started screaming with joy and ran to her to hug and kiss her. (Being a teen myself I could hardly believe that.)

But that is how it was: the teens positively loathed the democratic teacher and really took the mickey out of her. She always cried in our team meetings and just could not understand why the kids hated her so much.

For my own DS14 who always was a real handful I also noticed that the stricter I was and the more I punished him (with pain in my heart) the happier and more contented he was. Overall his childhood was quite 'boring' and monotonous because too much excitement and permissiveness totally brought out his inner demons.

I really learnt from that that he WANTED me to be strict and rather punitive. Obviously, he never quite said so openly but I could see that he was much happier and more affectionate if I was very very repressive with him.

Being at heart more like the democratic teacher at the home of the badly behaved teens I found that very hard to accept (and still often find it hard). I hate giving him so many consequences but when I ask him 'how I do my mother job' I always get good feedback from him.

Any way, I just throw this out there as points to discuss.

Kleinzeit, I think those are very useful distinctions, and I agree with you.

Paliker, I can't tell you what I think about those programmes because I've never watched them.
I agree that children, generally speaking, like firm boundaries. But it is a mistake to think that all children who are provided with them will be 'tamed': between about 14-17, my son made conscious, deliberate, considerable efforts to challenge authority, including mine, and no sanctions - neither school's nor mine - 'made' him behave if he didn't feel like it. And unless you beat your son or locked him in cupboards, there is nothing that you did, successfully, to punish your son that I didn't also do, unsuccessfully. I can only assume our sons are rather different people...

I'm not sure why you are struggling to believe me about this. Perhaps because it doesn't chime with your personal experience? Or perhaps you're misunderstanding me when I say "Sometimes you have to accept you can no longer control your teenagers; they have to learn to control themselves"... I am not advocating that a parent in this situation 'gives up' - I have said often that you keep on giving 'moral messages', and sometimes I think that can't be done without imposing sanctions, even if you know they're not going to work... But what I am most emphatically saying is that if you find yourself with a challenging teenager, this does not mean you are 'failing' as a parent somehow: the 'best' parents can have the 'worst' teenagers. I'm very much aware that many people don't believe this - presumably including you! - but it's still true. :)

Flow
I am sorry if you read into my post that I am 'not believing you'. I hardly know you at all, apart from those short things we write here on the forum. I certainly was not there when you had all the problems with your son and would not want to make a judgement.

You just strike me as someone with strong opinions and I like a discussion.

Having said that I myself find my son very difficult - why else would I be posting here? And I often question and doubt myself like many others here. And I very much wonder why my DS is so difficult - so I am totally with you when you say good parents can have difficult teenagers. I am one of them!

However, I do think our approaches differ...It's a shame you have never watched these programs. I recommend to watch them if you have a chance - they are very interesting.

Hope you have a good day - I did not wish to upset you!

Ah Palika, that's sweet of you. I wasn't upset, I was irritated. But apology accepted. :)

You generally come across as much more certain your parenting approach is 'right' than you express here. You've said previously things like "my son prefers me to be very strict", and elsewhere you have told other parents they need to be firmer. When you 'question and doubt' yourself, does that not lead you ever to reevaluate your 'hard-line' approach?

I have up trying to work out why my son behaved as he did many years ago. I can identify several powerful influences: his anger that his father left and moved abroad; my depression when he was little; his learning needs and the fact that school didn't meet them; where we lived and his circle of associates; his drug use... But I realised two important things...

Firstly, every 'answer' raised another question. For example, "He is stealing because he is doing drugs. Why is he doing drugs? Because he has got in with a circle of lads who do drugs because they have no aspirations. Why has he got in with kids with no aspirations? Because they are fatherless too and he identifies with them. Why does he identify with them? Because they are fatherless and struggling in school too. Why is he struggling in school? And so on... Trying to work out why caused me a lot of stress and used up a lot of energy - energy which would be better spent trying to do something...

Secondly, whatever the reasons, the behaviour itself needed dealing with. I found that turning the reasons over and over in my head got me 'stuck', or diverted me into doing or addressing the wrong thing. So for example, when I found out he was stealing from me, I stopped all his privileges and allowance, because this is a 'standard' teen punishment and what parents are 'supposed' to do. It didn't stop him stealing; in fact it tempted him to steal more. I looked for reasons and could see how unhappy he was about his dad and at school, but understanding this didn't stop him stealing either. What stopped him was putting a lock on my bedroom door, and later, for a while, doing a 'deal' with him where he got £20 at the end of a well-behaved week.

In the end, I decided trying to work out the the reasons he was behaving badly was pretty much exactly as useful/useless as trying to work out the reasons for catching a cold: the main priority should be 'treating the symptoms', and reflecting on why was only useful if it helped to avoid similar 'risky situations' in future...

flow, I do not have a 'hard line' approach. Quite the opposite, I need to learn to be tougher, just like so many others here. It's all about balance of love and power.

I struggle with it and question myself but ultimately I always come back to the understanding that too much 'therapy' and 'understanding' etc. gets me nowhere when dealing with anti-social behaviour of teens. The only answer is tough discipline and structure combined with lots of caring communication.

The books that guide me in this are Divas and doorslammers and Parenting out of control teens and also the programs that I mentioned.

I do honestly feel that a lot of parents here would benefit from these approaches as well.

Interestingly, the author of the book Get out of my life, (which basically says that there is nothing really you can DO) is endorsing the book Parenting our of control teens, which is chock-a-bloc full with great strategies (that we are using with good effect with our DS)

Jinkers, is this a private music lesson? Does your DS actually want to carry on with it? We constantly checked hobbies with DCs as tastes do change.

Something we learned with our DS was to separate out the lying from the forgetfulness. Our DS was very bad at basics like brushing his teeth. He would forget and then lie and say he had (which was daft as his breath could strip paint). We would get cross and general misery all round.

So we did a deal with DS. If he didnt lie we wouldnt get cross about the tooth brushing. This has worked wonders and now he generally doesnt forget to brush his teeth.

Palika, I think teens are all different.

Mine respond very well to a general approach of being spoken to like adults, being asked for an opinion and allowed a certain latitude in their decision making. But anything like an over-controlling, over-punitive approach and ds in particular will feel obliged to become more defiant.

I remember feeling exactly the same as a teen: as long as my parents treated me like an adult I felt morally obliged to be that adult. If I felt they were just being authoritarian for the sake of it, I felt almost obliged to push my case.

Ds likes to know that I can tighten the reins if I have to. What he doesn't like is a constant, petty jiggling of reins just to show that I can.
The calm, humorous approach works well with him, because that is what he interprets as strength. Shouting and constantly dishing out punishment doesn't work anywhere near as well.

Cory,
I could pretty much sign up to what you are writing. It;s the same over here. I think when we talk about 'our approach' we can never really convey what we are actually doing.

From my side I just find it odd and disappointing just how much discipline (aka punishment) my son needs as he has such understanding humorous parents who are willing to give him all sorts of freedom.

But he just can't deal with it and at times I worry how long I will have to dish out all these disciplines and if he ever learns to control himself. Having said that, since summer I see many encouraging sign of real maturity emerging. (THANKS GOODNESS!!)...interspersed with relapses that want me make to tear my hair out.

Maybe my DS is just very immature....(but who is to know...we just have to soldier on)

P.S. Apologies to the OP for side-tracking this thread into this more personal discussion

I think you just have to know your own child and do what you have to do, Palika. And know where you are at that particular moment in time.

Ds was a very compliant child, but since puberty set in has shown that he resents too much control and will behave better if given more freedom. He makes better decisions if nobody is around to check up on him.

Dd otoh suffers from intense anxiety and would love to be more managed- but both CAHMS and I agree that this would be the wrong approach with regard to the future: she has to be forced to stand on her own feet. For her, being micro-managed is the easy approach, the one that works well on the surface, but in the long term creates more problems than it solves.

Yes, this is a private music lesson, and DS reasonably keen on playing. I really do want him to continue, as he has given up lots of other interests recently in favour of watching endless YouTube videos. He did remember his lesson this week, and the threat of internet access being removed again stopped some stroppy behaviour immediately at the weekend, which makes me feel somewhat vindicated - although DH still thinks I overreacted. But I think that's a topic for the Relationships board.

Some more questions, more things to think about:

• Is he playing the right instrument (for him, not you)? Is he actually any good? Would I be right in guessing this is a classical instrument? Is this an instrument he could have fun playing?

• Is he learning it, playing it in the right way for him? (I dont mean is he blowing out of the right end BTW!). Does he belong to a group/orchestra/band of similarly aged musicians?

• why does your DS want to keep going with the music lessons, what is he getting out of it?

While I can see that you are worried that he has given up various things I wouldnt necessarily worry about that. Not having a hobby at 13 doesnt mean that he is automatically destined to a lifetime of sitting watching youtube videos in his pants!

Some advice my BiL gave me was to have musical instruments in the home which DCs could pick up and play if the mood took them. DS(15) benefited the most from this, he really enjoys picking up a guitar (we have a lot of these!) and learning to play something from youtube (so it isnt all rubbish!).

I really would separate out the lying from the activity. Stamp down hard on the lying but recognise that he is growing up so hobbies and interests will change as he does. Allow him to drop the lessons if he doesnt enjoy it enough any more perhaps explore different ways in which he can use his musical talents.

My DDs both belong to a Saturday music school run by the county music service. This has been great for allowing their musical taste to change and develop. DD1(18) started off playing guitar but then started to sing in the senior choir. She is now a volunteer teaching early years to play the ukelele and violin. DD2(13) started with violin and keyboards then played guitar for a while then base and is now also in the senior choir.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Worry ; he does want to keep playing his instrument, not least because he's quite good at it. He has tried another couple of instruments and settled on this one, so I think the issue is the lying, rather than the music lessons, and I've tried to make this clear to him. He lies about other things too! Although I don't think he lies more than some of his peers, having spoken to other parents here and in RL.

Does he feel awkward about being judged by you? I had an enormous amount of respect for my parents and would have found it quite difficult to look them in the eye and say "I have lost interest in this thing that is very important to you".

I kept on for a long time trying different musical instruments, pretending I practised more than I did, pretending to myself that I cared more than I did, because at that age it was too hard to look myself in the mirror and say "well, my mum may think this is very important and I think it's quite nice, but it's not really that important to me".

If I had hated it I might have found the strength iyswim, but it was hard to gear myself up to a "yeah, it's ok, but not at the top of my list of priorities". Just admitting that I felt a bit lukewarm seemed shaming.

Jinkers
I had the same problem with DS about musical lessons. I was very keen for him to learn an instrument for his brain development, which is somehow impaired as he had quite bad dyspraxia, can't organise himself and showed adhd tendencies.

I heavily worked with DS on these problems through various forms of physiotherapy and nutrition etc and I am extremely pleased to say that all these SN tendencies have completely gone.

DS was VERY co-operative because he knew that there was something 'wrong' with him and he was very keen to rectify it.

However, as soon as he was able to make friends (big sore topic) and his school achievement went from 'not very good' to 'okay and sometimes even really good' his motivation flagged.

BUT....through me helping so much he is soooo entwined with me....he felt he 'owed' me for all my help...yet could not get over his lack of motivation....so he 'tried' to be motivated...pretended to like the musical lessons....and started lying...grrhhh!!!

So, the lying is the big topic now and despite making great strides by saying we will be HAPPY if he confesses, it still sometimes happens.

My second approach is to stop COMPLETELY to motivate him to do anything but the absolute bare essentials (very hard for me as I am such a n 'improver' type) and give him practically complete freedom with everything (apart from health and safety issues obviously)

Just recently he lied again. He confessed but the lie went on for weeks (he had cracked the computer password) and I find it hard to let go. Oh parenting! What a wonderful job!

I really don't think the issue is music lessons per se; quite sure he doesn't feel judged about how he plays etc! I think the issue is that he's a fairly lazy, disorganised boy(who has lots of good qualities too!) who needs to learn to be truthful. I think he will get there- I fact we've just had a conversation about lying by omission (i. e. leaving a piece of information out of what was a factually correct answer) which makes me think there is a confession coming my way soon!