My dd may end up in a pupil referral unit - would you employ her when she leaves?

[Minifingers]

Have posted about our current crisis on Chat and Secondary Education. Things have moved on since yesterday.

My dd in year 10, who left primary with level fives in all her SATS, and a stack of reports describing her as 'a joy to teach' and 'a lovely person to have in class', is now facing permanent exclusion and a move to a pupil referral unit in January if she doesn't stop arguing with teachers and walking out of lessons. The school is being great - they are doing all they can to address her behaviour, and we are supporting them every inch of the way. She has 12 weeks to turn her behaviour around, according to the school, and they are monitoring her every step of the way.

The problem is that dd seems to live on a planet - planet teenager - where she is involved in her own odd little drama that none of us can understand, and there are no consequences for failing exams or leaving school with a terrible report from your teachers. I've got a horrible feeling she quite likes the idea of going to a pupil referral unit, where she'll be mixing with a peer group which will consist primarily of disruptive boys from very disadvantaged backgrounds, children in care, and children with special needs who can't cope in mainstream. She comes from an educated middle class family, has no learning difficulties and according to CAMHS, who we were referred to last year, no diagnosis of any mental or developmental disorder. She is just a very, very difficult teenager who is giving everyone the run about, despite loads of support from home.

The only things she has ever said she wants to do is work with children, in childcare, or get into social work. I was thinking this morning about how I'd feel about employing someone to look after my children straight from school (because at the rate she's going university will be out of the question) who had attended a pupil referral unit. Also, if I was a nursery manager how I'd feel about a job applicant with this on their record.

I'm wondering what the general view is - it'd help me know whether saying 'this move might make it impossible for you to have a good career in the fields in which you're interested in' would be a reasonable thing to present to her to persuade her to rethink her choices over the next few weeks.

[bigTillyMint]

In the borough that I work in, there are many provisions other than PRU's for teens who aren't managing in mainstream. Some short-term, some longer term. I presume the school is investigating all these avenues (as she will not be the first child who is having problems!)?

[gordyslovesheep]

honest answer is yes - she will find employment - as a careers adviser working with students in our PRU we have a fairly good rate of students continuing in education or training

[mysticminstrel]

Nothing constructive to add except to say I'm sorry, op, it sounds like a desperate situation and you are doing a great job in really tough circumstances.

And I second your sensitivity of a brick comments.

[applebread]

Op I am sorry that you have had nasty responses on both your threads. Nest of vipers at its worst.

I think people are frightened by the thought their own children could go off the rails. I can't see any other explanation for all the unpleasantness you have been subjected to.

There is an ebd unit close to us with a sign outside saying something like "the past is gone, the future is ahead". Some of the kids who come out of there get into trouble, some stay the same and some turn things around. I wish you and your dd the best. I hated my parents when I was a teenager. I know how easy it is for things to go wrong and I'm juat lucky it didn't happen to me.

[Tabby1963]

How worrying for you, you must be desperate for her to see sense and avoid being referred to this unit.

However, I don't think anything you say (or her teachers) about her future will make a blind bit of difference at the moment, she's just not for listening.

From what you've described it sounds like she does have a good head on her shoulders and this being the case she will eventually figure out what she wants from life, but not without several painful experiences along the way. It sounds like you are all in for a bumpy ride while she goes through this process.

Remember that happy, successful primary school girl, she is still that girl, but with lots and lots of attitude. She will grow up and come back to you, have patience and don't give up.

[headlesslambrini]

I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating something but I do work with teens, some in a PRU although this is not my caseload now. Stats say that those teens in PRU's spend more time unemployed and more turned off from continuing with college afterwards. Chances are she will find it more difficult to get a job afterwards. Most PRU's are only upto year 11. Your DD has to remain in education until she is 18 so an extra 2 years - I don't know if she is aware of this or not.

Someone mentioned about college but this needs to be funded through the school during years 10 and 11. Will they agree to it? If so, give her idea, plant the seed and tell her that if she is interested then she needs to do the research and leave her to it, whatever you do, do NOT interfere with this. Guide her if she asks for help but do NOT make the phone calls etc. She will take more responsibility if it's her idea. Once she has researched it then take her to college, but let her ask the questions, I'd drop her off and arrange to meet her afterwards, if she likes it then use it as a hook - she needs to have a good report from school and home for it to be agreed. It can be very good experience though as she will be mixing with older teens who quite often will be saying 'shoulda worked at school and be on the higher level course' IYKWIM.

If you do this then you will need patience in abundance when she realises that you are not doing the research for her and make sure you have plenty of plasters from biting your tongue

You need to speak to the careers person at school - not the teacher but the independent careers adviser. Unfortunately not all schools have bought this in but get an appointment if they have.

[gordyslovesheep]

she has to remain in education, employment or training until 18

It may be more difficult for her if she attends the PRU and it is best to try and avoid this but it wont be the end of her world either x

Ironically she will get better careers support at the PRU !

[CeliaFate]

When there is no "reason" for a child to act as yours does, it confuses people.

If she sailed through primary school successfully, we have to believe something has happened at secondary school to make her act like this - either unfair treatment (so she feels "fuck the system, it has failed me") or something more traumatic that she cannot articulate, so is acting out.

A visit to the PRU maybe just what she needs. I know a boy who was a complete disruptive, violent, antagonistic pupil who went to a pru and absolutely crapped himself because the pupils there were in his words, "barking". He knuckled down and came back into mainstream education.

It may just be who she is. Which is the hardest blow of all.

I feel for you, OP. Wishing all the best for you.

[TiggyD]

Sticking to the original question, lots of nurseries would give her a chance, even if her CRB isn't spotless. They tend to be quite caring places. I think this quote of yours is the main problem:

"She argues, argues, argues. She won't do anything she doesn't feel like doing. And she won't be thwarted if she wants to do something and an adult has said 'no'. She is very forceful and bullying in her manner, appears to have no fear of anyone, including the police"

In work you have to do what your boss tells you to do. That is hard for some people to get used to. And it's not like school where it's 'do this or we'll try another way for you'. It's 'do it or get out'. There was a girl in a nursery I went to the other day who sounds a bit like your DD. She lasted a week and a half. Your DD will need to get her head around the fact the world doesn't owe her a living.

Hope she does well.

[Leaptheditch]

Hey op ignore the implicit blaming, as you say cases like yours strike fear... Not that they are actually unusual. The pru probably is appropriate but best avoided if possible. There is a script to all this and it doesn't resolve for a while yet ( hormones) so avoiding the worst complications is the best plan. That you don't think drugs are an issue is great, you don't mention her sexual health either? She is more likely to be risk taking here too ( or gay and confused) and if so great if you can get her to a clinic, the nurses tend to be

[Abra1d]

I have a friend with an exceptionally difficult daughter of 13. She was difficult from the day she was born and has got worse. My friend ended up having a nervous breakdown.

They are a lovely family. There are no 'issues' with them as parents. She was just born that way. It turns out there are other people in her father's family who are 'difficult' too.

Sometimes these things are just hereditary. Which makes it harder, in a way, because there is no obvious way of resolving them.

[BurberryQ]

Someone mentioned about college but this needs to be funded through the school during years 10 and 11. Will they agree to it? not round here it doesn't...all we needed was a letter from the education authority saying he was not being educated elsewhere - it comes under 'education otherwise' eg home ed - although that might be different in England (we are in Wales)

[headlesslambrini]

BurberryQ it might be different up and down the country. In my local borough the schools can send students to local colleges for as many days as they are prepared to pay for it. Some schools are good and will do this and some schools just can't afford it so don't offer it. If a student is off role from school, then they go to a panel who will allocate a state maintained school and the school has to accept them if they have a place available.

The college route can work out cheaper (depending on the number of days and course) for the school rather than the PRU so it is worthwhile seeing if this is a possibility.

Our PRU will do duel registration as well, so your DD can remain on role with school for a set period of time.

[Spikeytree]

Have the school mentioned a managed move? PRU would be a last gasp strategy here.

Our PRU has a mix of students: young mums, vulnerable students (inc. refusers, MH issues) as well as behaviour issues. It is OFSTED outstanding but there are not enough places so behaviour wise it is only for the extreme, after managed move has failed and prior to permanent exclusion for some.

[Trigglesx]

I think my story freaks people out because we're a normal, loving middle class family, with a seemingly completely normal, happy child who's gone completely off the rails in adolescence. I reckon people look at me and it strikes the fear of god into them: if it could happen to her dd, it could happen to mine. So they search around to see if they can identify a fault with my parenting to blame my dd's adolescent difficulties on.

Or... alternatively...

Some of us don't give a shiny shit whether or not you're middle class, and personally I don't think it matters what CLASS you are when you child is acting out of control. You're sitting there obsessing over her future and what type of career she might have - but if you don't pull her back into some semblance of normal functioning, she may not HAVE a future. There are so many ways she could just spiral downward. If you are being told a PRU may be helpful, FFS, why don't you just try it and see how it goes? You've said yourself that she's terrorising your family and just getting worse. Deal with the NOW, so you can then deal with the future once she's back on track.

Oh, and wittering on about how she'll be more likely to be involved in crime and how it's detrimental to her life and all that, simply because she'll be associating with the disadvantaged and those with SNs? (yes yes, the great unwashed ) I can only assume you are not thinking about how god-awful you sound.

For someone who is so distressed about letting her middle class (how many times did you point that out anyway? cripes!) daughter associate with the lower classes and those in care, you seem to overlook the fact that your daughter is being recommended to go there for a reason. Or maybe the idea that she might fit in there is what's giving you hysterics.

[feelinlucky]

Hi op, sorry you're getting so much abuse, I was shocked at some of the abuse you received yesterday and equally as shocked today. I hope you're managing to ignore it. Some positive experiences from me too. One of my very good friends went to a pru and she is now a doctor. Lots of people fair well despite the difficulties that took them there. Good luck.

[cory]

Triggles, I think it is clear from Minifingers' posts that her concern is not about her dd coming across working class children or children with SN in the PRU, but children (from whatever class) who are already into criminal activities and serious misbehaviour. As some other posters have pointed out, PRU's often only take the most severe cases.

And it's hard not to worry about the future. There is so much time in the day: you have time to worry both about your child's chances about getting a job in 5 years time and the possibility that she may not live to grow up: because you don't know which of the scenarios you should realistically worry about, you end up worrying about them all.

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

Kicking someone when they're down is twatty behaviour. Whatever you may think of Minifingers view on a completely separate topic, there is no reason to drag this in here.

Mini I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said, just wanted to show my support. I agree that taking your DD to the PRU may very well give her a kick up the backside. There's a lot to be said for teenage hormones and lack of maturity in young people her age. Picking apart your parenting is not going to help either of you, especially as you've already explored that avenue. I read this thread this morning, so I can't recall if this has been mentioned but might counselling be an option for DD to rant and rave and express her emotions to a stranger? She's at an awkward age but do not despair, as I said, there's a lot to be said for maturity and also, getting a big old shock when she realises that the PRU isn't a joke but a reality that may affect her education and career choices long-term. I think it's hard to think long-term when you're than young. Oh so I lied, I did have something to add!

[Trigglesx]

off your thread? You ARE aware you've posted in AIBU, right?

If you want to post and have everyone agree with you, AIBU is not the most likely place.

[Minifingers]

Just so shocked at the spite and nastiness in Triggle's post.

An hour ago I had a call from dd's Spanish teacher, telling me that dd had been incredibly rude to her in her lesson, eating food and refusing to put it away. She said that dd never admits that she's doing anything wrong, and this makes her impossible to deal with. She sounded so upset. I got a massive lump in my throat and had to control myself not to cry down the phone. All I could say to her was 'sorry', and tell her to talk to the head of year, to make sure she reports every incidence of bad behaviour. I told her that dd is facing exclusion and that the school is trying to support her but also gathering evidence in support of that exclusion. She told me she was sorry for me, and was very kind, which made me cry so I had to say goodbye quickly and put the phone down.

I phoned dd afterwards. She's been staying with my mum and sister, who live together since the first week of term, following a violent episode at home involving the police. Not sure when she will return home at the moment. Her response was to deny that she'd done anything wrong. Unbeknown to me DH had just phoned her and asked her about her day. She said it had been fine, other than being asked to leave her science lesson because of bad behaviour.

So - on we go. She clearly intends to be excluded.

I'm really grateful for the suggestions of alternatives to the PRU. I phoned the local FE college who said that they would accept her onto a vocational course, but might struggle to get funding, as it's in a different borough from the one she is at school in now (and from the one we live in). However, the fees for UK students for a year full-time course are quite reasonable (1K) and we would be able to find that from somewhere I'm sure. I will look into it if the school decides to accelerate the exclusion process on the basis of her current behaviour.

[cory]

Do you think the vocational course might actually be the answer?