My dd may end up in a pupil referral unit - would you employ her when she leaves?

[Minifingers]

Have posted about our current crisis on Chat and Secondary Education. Things have moved on since yesterday.

My dd in year 10, who left primary with level fives in all her SATS, and a stack of reports describing her as 'a joy to teach' and 'a lovely person to have in class', is now facing permanent exclusion and a move to a pupil referral unit in January if she doesn't stop arguing with teachers and walking out of lessons. The school is being great - they are doing all they can to address her behaviour, and we are supporting them every inch of the way. She has 12 weeks to turn her behaviour around, according to the school, and they are monitoring her every step of the way.

The problem is that dd seems to live on a planet - planet teenager - where she is involved in her own odd little drama that none of us can understand, and there are no consequences for failing exams or leaving school with a terrible report from your teachers. I've got a horrible feeling she quite likes the idea of going to a pupil referral unit, where she'll be mixing with a peer group which will consist primarily of disruptive boys from very disadvantaged backgrounds, children in care, and children with special needs who can't cope in mainstream. She comes from an educated middle class family, has no learning difficulties and according to CAMHS, who we were referred to last year, no diagnosis of any mental or developmental disorder. She is just a very, very difficult teenager who is giving everyone the run about, despite loads of support from home.

The only things she has ever said she wants to do is work with children, in childcare, or get into social work. I was thinking this morning about how I'd feel about employing someone to look after my children straight from school (because at the rate she's going university will be out of the question) who had attended a pupil referral unit. Also, if I was a nursery manager how I'd feel about a job applicant with this on their record.

I'm wondering what the general view is - it'd help me know whether saying 'this move might make it impossible for you to have a good career in the fields in which you're interested in' would be a reasonable thing to present to her to persuade her to rethink her choices over the next few weeks.

[Minifingers]

"Would you consider her going to a boarding school if it would work financially for you?"

In a heartbeat.

But no money for this.

[Minifingers]

"I cannot stress enough how being and acting emotionally removed from a situation can help - even when you don't feel it.~"

We are like this now. It comes easily because I feel emotionally frozen towards her. I do my crying in private.

"There are many strategies you can use but you need to really know deep down that you cannot make her do anything, in the end she has to choose her own life."

I have accepted this, but I'm still grieving for the life I imagined for her and the child she used to be, who seems to have got lost.


Yesterday she said at the meeting with her head of year: 'I don't have to go to the pupil referral unit if I don't want to. I can do what I like. You can't make me do anything'. Not sure how to respond to this statement given that the law will prosecute us if she doesn't go to school, and, as she helpfully points out, we can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do.

[LaurieFairyCake]

They won't prosecute you if you do everything required from the school and the LEA - attend all meetings (I'm sure you are), contact camhs etc, keep everyone updated.

My response to her saying you can't make me is always 'of course I can't, life is a contract - you go to school and fulfill your contract and I feed you and put a roof over your head. Just in the same way my work pays me for food and the house. Things won't be great for you if you don't fulfill your part of the contract, just like they wouldn't be for me if work stopped paying me"

Don't say what but strategies can include very basic foods, no Internet, no phone, no pocket money , no lifts, no washing done etc etc

Detach detach detach

[Minifingers]

Laurie - my response to her is to point out that nobody can control her. She needs to control herself, or accept the consequences of not controlling herself, which can be life long.

As far as depriving her of the internet, the food she likes, her phone, pocket money, all these strategies have been useless. If you don't give her her phone she stays out for hours after school and doesn't tell you where she is, so you end up calling the police and reporting her missing. I use the internet with my work at home and my other children use it too and it's been impossible in a practical sense to completely restrict her access to it. She piggy backs off other people's unsecured wireless networks (we live in a built up area), which puts our computer security at risk. She spends all her lunch money on shitty food, eats her way through everything she feels like - I don't buy cakes so she makes herself microwave cake, eats her way through half a block of cheese, cooks massive fry ups. What am I supposed to do? Stop buying cheese, butter, eggs and flour?

She has bullied and intimidated all of us to the point where we have given in to her and let her have her phone in her room at night, and unrestricted internet access. It's not what I would have ever wanted, but there comes a point where you feel that it's unsupportable to have your other children exposed to her daily tantrums when you hold back on something she wants. The screaming, shouting, kicking down of doors, threats to break windows, swearing. I have an autistic child of 8 and a boy of 10 and they can't be witnessing this every day. If I thought it would make a difference to her behaviour I would keep going with the punishments, but we have at various times removed her phone for up to 12 weeks at a time, and it made no difference at all to her behaviour so we have largely given up on using things like this to try to control her.

[oscarwilde]

Please excuse my ignorance but would a PRU be stated as such as a place of education ? I interview people a lot and simply review their grades, not the actual venue that they studied at. Eton might jump out at me but I don't make a habit of googling schools. A state exam is a state exam in my view. Unless I was a local employer it would totally escape me. Expulsion from school unless it was for criminal damage wouldn't particularly bother me. Lots of people do stupid stuff as kids and adults, most of them are lucky to get away with a caution.

If I had a candidate in front of me who had attended multiple schools and put it on their cv, I might wonder why but most candidates would simply put the place that they completed their GCSE's/A levels and leave it at that given the target of no more than 1-2 page CV's these days.
If your daughter is actively resisting going to a PRU and you aren't keen, then she simply has to be in formal education or training until she is 17. Can you put the ball back in her court - with the assistance of her school/careers advisor set out what her options are and get her to decide? She just has to get through to that point and then take herself off to the world of work without a criminal record. A year stacking shelves might persuade her that some sort of training would be more worthwhile. I would try to totally back off at this point and make her stand on her own two feet. Easier said that done I do accept.

TV - remove the cable and take it with you when you leave the house
Internet - reset the password on a daily basis. I saw a great photo recently of a Post It saying something along the lines of
"Today's Wifi Password"

1. Make your bed
   
2. Do your laundry
   
3. Clean up the kitchen after breakfast"
   
   Is there anyone she has time for / admires who would be willing to mentor her?
   
   Best of luck, it doesn't sound like a fun situation.

[BurberryQ]

I think oscarwilde is right about the school thing u know, no employer has ever shown the slightest interest in where i went to school.

[saggyhairyarse]

My friends son got sent to a pupil referral unit, shit himself as he wasn't quite the big man he thought he was and soon towed the party line and was back to his usual school within a week.

Life is about choices and she is making a choice at the moment to behave in a certain way because she obviously gets something out of it (parents and school paying her lots of attention and kudos with friends perhaps). Am sure you and school are doing everything you can but she has to help herself.

As for whether I would employ someone from there, yes I would but it would depend on the reason for them being there and also whether they had the skills required for the job and whether they were punctual etc for interview.

[LaurieFairyCake]

Yes, having the other children is going to make this harder but you're in a war you have to win.

Your talking about one 14 year old having all the power in the house, she runs everything.

Take the gadgets off her, then she can't access the Internet. She shouldn't have them in her room, you've paid for them. If she kicks off you go out - you're completely right, you're other children shouldn't hear this so go out.

Yes, buy food for every day, stop 'allowing' the making of cakes etc by not having the stuff.

If she doesn't come back after school go on with your life - sure report to the police and then let them deal with it.

These strategies only work if applied consistently. I can hear how worn down you are but right now she has all the power.

[oscarwilde]

Oh dear - I have just seen your last post. If she were my child I'd be trying to have her taken into some form of temporary care because of the effect on my other children. A short sharp shock of that nature might reduce the worst of her behaviour.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/teenagers/a1427668-Do-I-let-15yo-go-into-care Have you seen this thread? You are not alone it would appear.
www.empoweringparents.com/Out-of-Control-Teen-Behavior-Is-It-an-Adolescent-Phase.php#

[LaurieFairyCake]

And stop worrying about what she eats unless you can directly control it.

If it was me I would not give her money and I'd give her a packed lunch - then she can't buy what she likes.

Always, always giving a way out - "if you manage to control your behaviour in front of the others I will give you 3 pounds for your dinner money on Friday so you can choose your lunch that day, from now til then it's packed lunches"

[friday16]

I have an autistic child of 8 and a boy of 10 and they can't be witnessing this every day.

So why not put them first, throw her out and let social services pick up the pieces? It appears you have no (legal) sanctions left that will have any effect, and your other children (particularly, one can't help thinking, an autistic 8 year old) are innocent parties in this. Whoever's fault this is (and it may be no-one's) it isn't theirs.

[oscarwilde]

Sorry - I have just seen that Yr10 is a 14-15 yr old. I thought 15-16. I'd stick with the school's 12 week program and Laurie's approach for now, but I would make it clear that the next level post 12 weeks is a pretty big step up in terms of impact on her life.

[CupOCoffee]

It sounds like a nightmare!

[MinesAPintOfTea]

It might not ruin her life as long as they offer GCSEs. I never write down the school name, just my exams and grades, so if sending her turns her around and makes her work for exams it might help.

[BarbarianMum]

Well she's got you exactly where she wants you, hasn't she? I think the PRU is the least of your worries tbh - she is holding you and your family hostage with her bad behaviour.

I would take away the phone, computer etc and get rid of them, permanently. No pocket money or allowance (and keep your money locked away. Any threats of violence, any thefts - call the police.

Sorry to be blunt but every time you put her in control or give in you make things a little bit worse for everyone. As for your other children, of course you're concerned, they are living in a war zone. I lived like that all through my teens thanks to my dear brother and it can get so very much worse than this.

There are posters on here who will give you very good advice on strategies for dealing with teens from a parent's perspective but honestly there is no hope if you aren't able to be in charge in your own home .

[CupOCoffee]

I'm sorry, I can't remember if you said she had seen a psychologist (or whoever would be appropriate).

[Floggingmolly]

Sorry, but no, I really wouldn't. It's going to leave an indelible mark on her as far as future prospects are concerned

[CupOCoffee]

BarbarianMum. I had similar. My brother was violent and had temper issues. It was complicated I think by undiagnosed SN (he has a lot of autistic traits). He would particularly kick off about things which he didn't really "get" (low IQ I believe).

I would be told (directly or indirectly) that the way to deal with it was to not wind him up, which actually meant not conversing with him at all, seeing as anything could trigger him off. It put too much responsibility onto me to be the peace keeper. My parents were very weak and there were never any real consequences for his behaviour which at times was horrific!

Not saying that's how it is in your house OP as what do I know about it. But I do know that it was a very stressful environment to be in every day. I sympathise. I've often wondered how I would deal with it if one of my own children were similar.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Oppositional Defiance Disorder

I immediately thought of this reading your posts. Not a doctor, was a youth worker.

May be worth a Google?

[specialsubject]

I've nothing constructive to offer beyond wondering if there are 'short sharp shock' camps in the UK like the US one that was on the telly last night.

A headshave and some serious discipline in a safe but unpleasant environment might do it.

my sympathies to you, OP. In a world where girls defy being shot to get an education, your daughter's attitude is all the more horrific.

BTW the OP has also mentioned that the girl is smart enough to steal from unsecured networks so cutting off their own internet doesn't work. I could suggest a simple non-smartphone but this seems to be tinkering at the edges.

[Jellybeanz1]

ODD sounds about right my brother has/has that. Ended up at PRU now has own successful business well off, can seem to take on and keep any staff though!
I just wondered and Fairycakes might know about teenage bootcamp. Since time is short could it work for you drop them in the middle of the desert with no hair straightners or microwaved cake.

[Thewhingingdefective]

I don't really feel qualified to give my opinion here as my eldest is only 7, but my personal desire if it was my DD would be to home educate her and try to steer her in the direction of her chosen career path, with perhaps getting her to write some letters to childcare providers asking for work experience.

Seems she is not good at taking orders and dealing with authority and needs to get through this phase. Sounds a bit huggy-hippy but maybe she needs a bit more praise, bigging up and reminding how intelligent, capable and fab she is? Hard to remember that if you are dealing with aggression and defiance though.

The threat of PRU probably does bother her but she might be too proud to admit it so gives off the don't care attitude. Is she trying to present a tough girl image?

Whatever happens in the coming months, just try to stay believing in her. I think there is still time for her to turn things around.

[hardboiledpossum]

Why would her future employers ever know?

I was a nightmare as a teen, mostly because i was incredibly unhappy, i left school without a single gcse. I volunteered at a nursery and got a good reference and then went on to get a full time job at a nursery at 17. At 19 i decided i wanted to go to uni so did an access course and was subsequently accepted to a top 10 university .

[insanityscratching]

I'd agree with Laurie she has all the power and until you claim it back it won't get better. Dsis is just the same, I have advised before taking away the internet, the pocket money all the "what should be privileges" but dn considers rights but she won't because "dn will kick off". What she doesn't remember is that dn is kicking off anyway regardless.
Dn stayed here for a couple of weeks when dsis needed a break and whilst she wasn't perfect I didn't get an iota of the trouble dsis would. Dn when asked why said it was because she knew I wouldn't put up with it. So she is making a choice to behave like she does towards her mother just like I suppose your dd is.