My dd may end up in a pupil referral unit - would you employ her when she leaves?

[Minifingers]

Have posted about our current crisis on Chat and Secondary Education. Things have moved on since yesterday.

My dd in year 10, who left primary with level fives in all her SATS, and a stack of reports describing her as 'a joy to teach' and 'a lovely person to have in class', is now facing permanent exclusion and a move to a pupil referral unit in January if she doesn't stop arguing with teachers and walking out of lessons. The school is being great - they are doing all they can to address her behaviour, and we are supporting them every inch of the way. She has 12 weeks to turn her behaviour around, according to the school, and they are monitoring her every step of the way.

The problem is that dd seems to live on a planet - planet teenager - where she is involved in her own odd little drama that none of us can understand, and there are no consequences for failing exams or leaving school with a terrible report from your teachers. I've got a horrible feeling she quite likes the idea of going to a pupil referral unit, where she'll be mixing with a peer group which will consist primarily of disruptive boys from very disadvantaged backgrounds, children in care, and children with special needs who can't cope in mainstream. She comes from an educated middle class family, has no learning difficulties and according to CAMHS, who we were referred to last year, no diagnosis of any mental or developmental disorder. She is just a very, very difficult teenager who is giving everyone the run about, despite loads of support from home.

The only things she has ever said she wants to do is work with children, in childcare, or get into social work. I was thinking this morning about how I'd feel about employing someone to look after my children straight from school (because at the rate she's going university will be out of the question) who had attended a pupil referral unit. Also, if I was a nursery manager how I'd feel about a job applicant with this on their record.

I'm wondering what the general view is - it'd help me know whether saying 'this move might make it impossible for you to have a good career in the fields in which you're interested in' would be a reasonable thing to present to her to persuade her to rethink her choices over the next few weeks.

[Mrscupcake23]

Personally I think going into a PRU was the best thing that happened to my son.

I thought wrongly they were full of rough people that would lead him astray this was not that case. They treated him like an individual something that main schools didn't do they picked their arguments and let small things go like uniform.

He has now left school and is working, he put on his cv the exams he got and not PRU just the name of it, no one ever questioned it. The staff were great and gave him confidence which was just what he needed. I think if she visited she would like it my son did.

[flow4]

Oh sweet flying cupcakes! What on EARTH possessed you to post this on AIBU, mini ?! Don't make THAT mistake again, will you?! Glad you've found your way here now, anyway... :)

Firstly, to address the original concern... Nothing is irredeemable except death, not even pregnancy or prison. Nothing. And certainly not a PRU. Seriously. Don't worry about what might or might not happen in the future; you have no control over it and you need all the energy you can muster for now. (Weak :) ).

If and when your DD decides she wants to stop behaving like a fool, she can put things back on track. She might have made it harder for herself - even much harder - but she'll still be able to do it. In fact, looking on the bright side the very strength of personality she's showing now will help her sort herself out in the end.

I know you probably don't believe me when I say nothing is irredeemable, but it's true. Here are some examples...

My friend, abused as a child; ran away at 13; arrested; pregnant at 14 by a man ten years older whom she saw as her 'rescuer'; second baby at 16; no school, no qualifications... Now years on she has a degree, a responsible job, a freelance side business and her own eldest child is off to uni... :)

Or my friend's son, started smoking a bit of dope at 17; held up the local post office with a toy gun "as a joke"; spent 5 years in a high-security prison... He's now a council officer happily married with a baby.

Or my son, who was very like your DD two years ago, but probably worse. Underachieved at school; took a lot of drugs; stole over £1000 from me. And I had him arrested and charged the third time he assaulted me... Now he's back in college, getting merits and distinctions, applying for uni, and has just got himself a part-time paid job as well as the unpaid/volunteer role he's been doing for 3 months.

mini, your daughter will be ok. I don't quite promise, but I betcha or will do, if I ever get that £1000 back .

You, however, are on track for a nervous breakdown. You really, really need to detach and focus some of your (obvious) love, care and concern on yourself. I tell you this with the 20:20 vision of hindsight, because I made myself really rather ill with the stress of it all, and I'm only just beginning to get better. Don't repeat my mistake.

Your DD is clearly unhappy (I said this last time I posted too, as I'm sure you'll remember); happy people simply don't behave the way she's behaving. It is absolutely heart-breaking when we know our babies are unhappy and we can't make it all better for them. We try for a long, long time. You will need (I am guessing, because it was true for me) to mourn for the loss of the happy life you always imagined for your little girl. But you can't 'kiss it better'. You can help her find something that might make her happy, but you can't control her feelings: that's up to her, now.

You can, though, shape your own emotions. Do some more things to make yourself happy. Since your DD doesn't seem to know how, or doesn't think she's worth the effort, show her... :)

[Quangle]

Mini it must make you feel so sad and angry at the same time. But I think the recent posts have been really good. Don't lose sight of yourself in all this - and the rest of your family and what you have that is good. You may get her back in time but when she comes back, you will want to be yourself - full of love and life - not drained of all joy. beastofburden is right - you have the right to a decent family life and while you cannot, and I know would not, abandon your DD, you may have abandoned yourself a bit. I don't know how you build yourselves back but it strikes me that that bit might be a bit more within your control at the moment than getting DD in order.

(caveat - I've never been through this so have no idea what I'm talking about but lots of wise women on this board do know).

[pollycazalet]

Unbelievable comments on this thread. So much for kindness and empathy.

Mini my DH works with troubled kids, has worked in a pru in the past and for many if the kids it was a short interval before getting back into mainstream. They can be effective.

I have good friends who crashed and burned at school and in all cases got back into education when they were older. School just doesn't suit some kids - as your dd is young for the year she is probably some way behind in maturity.

[Beastofburden]

mini you are all exhausted- that is spot on. And actually, you and DH do have the right to a decent life. Kids do not get to ruin everything for us.

In the medium term I would still say she can afford a few wasted years- she is young and will turn it round. More to the point- what about your wasted years? It's a question of stamina and also of time that you will never get back.

I have disabled kids and there are similar issues there. The idea of respite care is much more establishe among us. But perhaps you should do something more formal with respite care for you and your DH now, without seeing it as a nuclear option of failure. Do you have a sense of where such respite might come from? I know you have so far used family members. What else might be an option? Boarding school, for instance?

[insanityscratching]

Mini have you had dd assessed by a specialist diagnostic service for ASD? I think because of her having a sibling with ASD and the difficulties she started experiencing on entry to secondary and with the onset of adolescence then it is something that should be explored properly not half heartedly by CAMHS who IME aren't the experts.
I have a son and a daughter and they are chalk and cheese but they are both ASD so it's not unheard of.

[Minifingers]

"I wouldn't worry too much at her age and the key to helping her is to continue to give love and support and forgiveness throughout the difficult times."

We are really struggling with giving her this ATM.

We are both bruised, very bruised, and emotionally exhausted.

DD's behaviour, her language - she has bullied and abused everyone (especially me) in the family for two years now, and I don't think it's going too far to say that we have been emotionally traumatised by it. The fact that she accepts no responsibility for her behaviour is making it very difficult for us to forgive her and offer unconditional love.


DH has never raised his voice to me or anyone else. But three weeks ago he found himself throwing something at dd, and physically pushing her away (she fell over), for the first time ever, after she called him a 'cunt' for asking her to hand her mobile over at midnight on a school night. He is so distressed that it could have come to this, he can't bear to look at her at the moment.

[hatgirl]

I got asked to leave 6th form, massive attendance issues amongst other things. I have a 'sob story' behind it but it isn't really relevant. My point is I now have a degree and a masters degree. I'm a senior social worker for a local authority and i'm under 35.

she needs to get her act together and pretty sharpish but right now whatever happens it isn't too late. If you are in the north west send her my way and we can have a chat.

[bevelino]

When all is said and done your dd is still a child and has a long way to go before she matures. The teenage years can be an absolute nightmare but she won't be one forever. I am lucky enough to have 4 fairly well behaved teen dd's but at times even they can be dreadful and sometimes say they are scared about growing up. I wouldn't worry too much at her age and the key to helping her is to continue to give love and support and forgiveness throughout the difficult times.

[olivevoir58]

I posted on the other thread about my similar dd. I think it's easier for me to consider emerging MH issues as she doesn't share my genes nor was she exposed to my parenting up to the age of 8 - and her early parenting was awful to the extreme (adopted from the care system)...
Even though she made it to the end of Y11 with a decent crop of GCSEs, I do believe she fits the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder and that it's only a matter of time until she ends up with that diagnosis.
In my experience, CAMHS don't like labels and are very reluctant to offer anything but an optimistic viewpoint as they need kids off their books to save money like everywhere else.
My advice is research MH issues yourself and if you can afford it, get a private diagnosis. Apply for DLA. Having a recognised disability is a good safety net and will help with applying for a statement (though you've probably run out of time with that one). Good luck. I know what you are going through, it is unimaginably difficult but a loving family and intelligence are both resilience indicators.

Ps Autism and related conditions (as I'm sure you are aware) are hereditary and autism looks very different in girls.

[TheBigJessie]

I've been watching the thread, and I think maybe I was too negative before.

She could simply do what I do today, having learnt my lesson, which is to only put the grades and not where I got them.

The most important thing is where she will achieve her potential this year, and it's looking like she isn't going to back down at the school. I imagine the idea of caving to the school's requests is too humiliating now.

It is possible that she could do well at the PRU- I understand they're probably all different, but the one I attended was a peaceful environment. We were school refusers, high functioning AS, ADHD, children in care, carers, etc. No drugs or violence.

[KatieScarlett2833]

I remember most the utter despair. My lovely DH in tears of grief, DS so upset he disowned DD for a while. It affects everybody in the family. She'll come good in the end, she has the familial support and an excellent Mum. This too shall pass.

[morry1000]

Minifingers. I meant to say that my DDs Behaviour is now fine.

My DDs Senco phones me twice a week with updates on DDs Behaviour
and work to date. To Quote the Senco "Her work has been the best of her year group".

Ok DD is repeating the year, but the improvment is a miracle.

Dont give up hope, of your DD waking up one day and suddenly changing

from what she is now and back to a Very Academically able pupil who
can do whatever she sets her mind to.

Best of luck to you and your DD.

[beatricequimby]

I'm really shocked at how horrible some people have been to you. You sound to me that you are doing your best in a very difficult situation.

My only suggestion is that you go and look round the PRU without your daughter - as well as encouraging her to go too. It might be useful for you to talk to the staff about how they work with the young people and where they go on to afterwards.

Best of luck.

[SPBisResisting]

Cupocoffee I think the op actually reacted quite moderately tbh.

Op does she actually want to work with children or was it just a way to answer the question for her. Child care and social work are very different. I'm not convinced she has the ambitions that so many people on the thread are suggesting you use to get through to her.

Would she get a job? A little dose of the real world where you only get paid if you perform.

[Mumsyblouse]

I have also seen this pattern- lovely family, really caring and very supportive, with some children who seem to do just fine and then one who for whatever reason rails against the world and seems to be on self-destruct. I hope you are able to hear some of the advice on here, I would be in such a state about all this, I don't know how you cope (I just guess you do). I'm sorry so many people were pointing fingers- but I know only too well that sometimes these things seem to blow up from nowhere and you find yourself in the middle of a storm you never saw coming. Perhaps being in a pupil referral unit will have some type of effect- from getting help to horrifying her, I think she's pretty set on being excluded so just let her get on with it.

[BellaVita]

for you OP.

I have two teenage sons, one who has just started college and was never ever in trouble at school and DS2 (yr9) who exasperates us and his teachers every bloody day. This has been going on since primary. I know how exhausting it can be, I feel for you I really do.

I think Laurie's advice is great and I will be taking it on board myself x

[PeriodFeatures]

....the best Social Workers are anti authoritarian, bold, brave individuals who can challenge, empathise, and have a commitment to Social Justice...

Encourage her to go for it...

[morry1000]

Minifingers. I have been reading this thread on both the Secondary section and here.

I know exactly what your are going though at the moment as i have stated on other posts that my DD was almost identical to your DD in her
behaviour and was wasting her abilty.

My DD who has a statement due to the fact of a very IQ of 138 and ADHD symptons was always arguing swearing and running out of the
classroom for no reason other than she was bored. she never did one
bit of homework for 5 years or any relevant work. She would in the middle of a maths lesson start talking about the Arab spring. when she was told to get on with her work would swear and walk out.

DD was told that they was no way she was going to be allowed back for
the 6th form, mind you she was only going to get Es anyway due to the fact of doing nothing.

About 6 weeks before the G.C.S.E Exams DD suddenly realised the mess she was in. She went in tears to her english teacher saying she was desperate. The english teacher said to DD if you can get Ds in English and Maths and other subjects i will ask for you to repeat yr 11
next year. DD managed Cs in English and History and D in maths/Science

The school have allowed DD back in to yr 11 to re do her Gcse "s and her target grades are 7 As.

The point to this is has your DD had an IQ test .

[OliviaMMumsnet]

We have moved this to our teenagers section

[PeriodFeatures]

And, to add, if she was keen, able to get up and be at work on time and demonstrated that she was safe and trainable i would employ her like a shot.

Kids who have had ups and downs can make insightful, sensitive childcare workers, particularly with children who are also facing challenges themselves.

[Minifingers]

Katie

And to all of you here with positive stories and helpful suggestions, which I will follow up.

Have asked for this thread to be moved to the teenage board.

Hoping for some input there from the magnificent Maryz and from Flow4, who's always on the mark with her advice.

[PeriodFeatures]

I haven't read the whole thread so might be missing something.....

[nilbyname]

Op I am disgusted at the pasting one or two of the pposters have given you on this thread.

You deserve a massive medal and hug, your situation sounds horrific.

FWIW, I think you should follow lauriefarie cakes advice to the letter and really detach yourself. Looking for answers where there aren't any is clearly too much.


I work with young people and I am constantly reminded of the parallels between their thought process and that of a toddlers-an inability to see consequences, a selfishness. Of course this is some not all, and is often minor things. But still.

God luck.

[insanityscratching]

Mini you mention her brother has ASD and knowing there is thought to be some genetic link, has she been assessed herself by a specialist diagnostic centre? ASD is harder to spot in intelligent girls who employ lots of coping strategies in primary but then seem to fall to pieces in secondary. Some refuse and become reclusive but others become disruptive and aggressive and controlling. I can suggest places where you could ask for a referral to if you wanted.