Daughter and wife in physical fight - what to do?

[northernDad38]

My 13 yr old daughter is really pushing boundaries at the moment, all the usual smirking and cheeky answers etc. But today which was meant to be a family day began with her refusing to put her shoes on. It sounds silly but it just got more and more antagonistic.

I managed to make peace with her and she helped me in the garden for a an hour or so.

But before we went out an argument about clothes with her mother got so out of hand I had to physically step in and pull them apart as her mum was actually trying to throttle her.

They both said appalling things which neither really mean and they spent the rest of the afternoon apart, and things have calmed down now but U'm just so shaken and upset by what happened I just don't want anything like this to happen again...

[mignonette]

This is bullying. I'm sure you know in your heart that you have to act and that boundaries have to be brought in. Refuse to engage at all in this type of behaviour. Do not allow it to escalate because it actively feeds her anger. There is nothing you can do to argue her into a state of reasonableness.

It is hard when the person you married and love still has so many good traits but in my experience (having once been with somebody like this), the love slowly dies if nothing is done and then you will be living in a war zone.

[AdoraBell]

I agree, it's bullying. What I meant though was the times you say she has hit you in an argument? If she doesn't do that where people outside of her immediate family will see then she has full control of when and where she does it, which means she has control of whether she lashes out or not.

I believe this is why she will not accept you accompanying her to the GP, she doesn't want to be found out.

Not nice at all being referred to as Horrible Man anywhere, especially not in a crowded shopping mall, most people wouldn't say such things in seriousness.

[HighJinx]

It sounds as though this incident has opened your ideas to your DW's behaviour and you aren't liking what you see.

As I said earlier if things are to improve then she needs to be the one to make it happen. It is a long and difficult process that takes commitment and courage.

I agree with mignonette that if nothing is done this will only get worse. I have spent a great deal of my life (esp when I was your older DD's age) around people like this and it was only when I got away from them that I could see how draining and damaging they were to me. At the time I focused on the good bits but living on a rollercoaster, never knowing when the high will end or how far the low will go, is no fun.

[TheFallenNinja]

Not entirely sure what I've done to incur your wrath Libertine.

[Libertine73]

It's not just you Ninja it's the whole 'troll' calling thing it's been building.

[HighJinx]

Good post Maryz

[mignonette]

Havie just shown this thread to my CMHT team leader and he says the following-

1. Has your wife had her medication reviewed? If not she needs this reviewing because as I suggested to you, it may be having a disinhibiting effect upon her temper threshold. He suggests that if she is on an SSRI, this may actually not be the best Px for her but she needs reviewing;
   
2. Your wife should not be on this medication without regular reviews by somebody with the complete picture of what is going on. You need to provide this information about her mood and temper/aggression;
   3)Ask for a referral to the CMHT as your wife (in his opinion from the information you have given) appears to need input greater than an antidepressant Px;
   
3. get support for yourself from your GP or any of the organisations already mentioned;
   
4. Be aware that if you do nothing and your daughter mentions outbursts like this to a teacher for example or a friends parent, you may be seen in a lesser light in that you had the chance to do something about it and did not.
   6)Your wife will not miraculously snap out of this by herself. There is a whole family dynamic involved here (there always is) and that can be worked through via the CMHT or Child and adolescent Psych through family therapy.

[cestlesautres]

Yes, that all sounds very sensible, Mignonette.

[mignonette]

I am well aware of what can be discussed and what cannot Maryz. I am a CPN. I am also aware that medical staff can be informed of factors affecting care. They just may not be able to comment. But the complete picture is needed in order that any evasion or untruths can be confronted.

[cestlesautres]

They can't ignore a report of a physical fight between the mother and daughter. Because one of them is more vulnerable. That would be the daughter.

[mignonette]

We're not all like that Maryz. I always take into account what is said to me by everybody including what is said non verbally too.Then I make my assessment and evaluation. Sadly if somebody refuses consent...Well you know how imperfect the system is and how literal minded some MHHCP's can be refusing to try to work with the client to develop family centred care and openness to prevent relapse.

My philosophy? In these days of cuts you need all the help you can get when caring for the MI. So why not try to encourage service users to involve their carers? Prevents relapse too.

[mignonette]

Maryz says it well. The time to act is now. Not in a few weeks when your wife seems 'calm' or receptive. Because she will forget what has happened or at least its gravity and will become very angry at you seemingly bringing up something she deems to be done and dusted.

And get support for yourself so when you need to maybe make some decisions, you have all the information you need to hand.

[hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman]

Your wife needs help but she has to want to seek that help. Things will only continue if she doesn't seek that help and chances are they will get worse, she will continue to offload her actions onto others. Get your girls out of that situation, if your wife is serious about seeking help she will need to be apart from the situation in order to change her behaviours.

[veryconfusedatthemoment]

I read this thread earlier this afternoon and 1 post really rang a bell with me because I live with it now in my life. In fact the bell wont stop ringing so I have to post. For the 1st time ever on Mumsnet I am actually quite nervous to post but family dynamics aren't always what they seem.

A PP mentioned undermining within the family by 1 family member against another and the effect that can have. The damage that is done within a family by undermining is just horrific - very very stressful, due to the manipulation.

OP - you mentioned earlier about talking to your DD and not telling your wife what was said etc. That to me could be undermining your DW and her role in the family and I do wonder if that happens more than you have think or intend. You mention in your OP about you calming DD down and her working with you in the garden. I could be very wrong but I live with my ex undermining me and I see the damage done to my DS and my relationship with him everyday. Your DW and DD need to make their own relationship work.

[WorraLiberty]

I'm not sure if the OP taking his DD into the garden to calm things down, was undermining his wife to be honest.

The OP has been attacked by his wife in the past, so he knows she can get violent when she 'sees red'.

He may well have been trying to avoid the situation turning violent.

Which despite his best efforts, happened in the end anyway.

[northernDad38]

DW is already back pedalling about seeing her GP, as she says she's talked it through with DD, and they'll watch a movie tonight and everything will be fine.

Makes me feel like I'm the one overreacting.

[hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman]

You know it won't be fine though, it will recur. You are not over-reacting, stay strong and do what you need to do to protect those children. She has the chance to get help and stop behaving as she is but you do need to keep your girls safe while she does it.

[WorraLiberty]

You're certainly not over reacting

Your wife seems to be displaying more and more traits of a violent abuser really.

Minimising what happened

Backtracking about going to GP

Not allowing you to come with her (again, so she can probably minimise)

Thinking a cuddle and a DVD will make up for it all.

Actually OP, if I were you I'd ask for this thread to be moved to the Relationships topic.

Because this isn't really about your teenage DD at all.