Daughter and wife in physical fight - what to do?

[northernDad38]

My 13 yr old daughter is really pushing boundaries at the moment, all the usual smirking and cheeky answers etc. But today which was meant to be a family day began with her refusing to put her shoes on. It sounds silly but it just got more and more antagonistic.

I managed to make peace with her and she helped me in the garden for a an hour or so.

But before we went out an argument about clothes with her mother got so out of hand I had to physically step in and pull them apart as her mum was actually trying to throttle her.

They both said appalling things which neither really mean and they spent the rest of the afternoon apart, and things have calmed down now but U'm just so shaken and upset by what happened I just don't want anything like this to happen again...

Children, even very young ones, don't get away with claiming provocation in the school playground - "he was annoying me" doesn't wash as an excuse in any school I know of - so it would seem a bit odd if the adults in charge of them claimed to need more indulgence.

And I tell you what huffle I mean this genuinely...

You might not abuse your DD the way you were abused by your parents

But you're definitely in danger of making her feel that if her boyfriend/husband gives her a slap, then it's her own fault for pushing him too far

We as adults are always responsible for our own actions

There is never an excuse for violence and not learning to walk away.

Okay.

I seem to have opened a can of worms and upset some people. So sorry for that, it wasn't my intention, and I realise I may have not explained the situation clearly.

Throttled is too strong a word for what happened and may have been a trigger word for some of the above posters. Again, sorry.

Nevertheless, my wife did put her hands around my daughters throat for all of 2 seconds. Which is unacceptable. I've made this clear to my wife and she has apologised to our daughter.

An hour ago i checked in on my DD and she was watching Japanese cartoons with the lights off which is typical behaviour for her and I gently persuaded her to perhaps get some sleep. But I did ask her how she feels about what happened today.

Typical teenager, she just shrugged and said "I dunno."

You have nothing to apologise for OP

In some cases (particularly one) I think the 'can of worms' needed opening.

I'm not sure if you're downplaying it or not now by 'down grading' the throttling to a '2 second grip'...only you know that in your heart of hearts.

Still the fact remains that your daughter was attacked by her own mother and her mother needs help fast.

Who knows whether the "I dunno" was just her wanting to put it behind her or if she's 'over it'.

However, I don't really think victims of DV (because that's what your DD is) should just 'get over it' and accept it.

I hope you continue to support her and that your wife gets the help she needs for 'seeing red and not being reasoned with'.

I was an awful teenager at times, I pushed and pushed. But guess what? My mum never laid a finger on me. And that does not make her a saint, that makes her a normal, decent parent.

An adult has physically abused a child. That's all there is to it. No emotional problems can excuse that. And it is absolutely not the child's fault.

What if the mother had been throttling the toddler? They can be pretty relentless with their questions and demands and tantrums.

OP, please don't send your daughter away like one poster suggested. That would give her the message that she is the problem, that this is her fault. You need to remove your wife from the house until she can be trusted not to assault your daughter, or indeed the younger child. You need to put your children first. Yes, you can support your wife in getting the help she needs, but she ought to stay elsewhere until her anger is under control.

I'm very glad to see this thread in Teenagers, with the majority of posts not blaming the 13-year-old child, but expecting the adult parent to keep her own behaviour under control. Children do not "ask for" physical abuse.

Oops, cross posted. I still stand by what I said though. Even if it was only two seconds of hands around her neck, that's rather intimidating.

If someone put their hands around my neck I would be terrified, even if it was only for a couple of seconds. I would assume they were planning to throttle me as why else would you grab someone's neck? And if you hadn't intervened, would it still have been just two seconds?!

I think also if a child is physically threatened, they instinctively retaliate or at least defend themselves, and, depending what adults say about them, that can get them into a great deal of trouble.

Amen GoodbyeRubyTuesday

Two seconds of Charles Saatchi's hands around Nigella's throat was enough to show the world what kind of man he is. Had he been snapped doing that to a 13-year-old schoolgirl, I don't think he'd have been judged less harshly, would he?

Was it really a throttle ? What was actually going on ?

I have to say I'm having serious problems with my 10 yr old DD &, whilst I love her & want to protect her, drives me up the wall. I don't throttle her or anything but she does ignite the fire within & I have to remove myself or tell her to go to her room. My other DD is 'normal'. Dd1 is disruptive, rude, ungrateful, full of hormones.

Of course, violence isn't the answer, but perhaps as a family you all need some help. Do you help manage your dd's behaviour ? Has anything like this happened before ?

I really feel for you op.

did your wife agree to go to the gp? ASAP? I think that's vital.

can I ask if they have ever fought like this before? and are they close generally?

I bet your wife feels like shit tonight, your poor dd to, it's a bloody difficult age.

best of luck.

Btw I'm not condoning the violence...

My DD's behaviour is mild compared to many and even if it wasn't there's still no excuse for what happened.

What terrifies me is that I was supposed to be at work today.

My wife is fine 99.999% of the time, there's still no excuse for what happened.
BUT
I've remembered one or two times where she's become physical with me, again when she's "seen red".

It's clear to me now that whatever the provocation it's my wife who needs help.

Any suggestions on how to get her the help she needs or what form that might take?

she needs to talk to her gp, honestly, with you there preferably do she doesn't minimise.

glad you are going to stand firm here, are you worried about leaving her with the kids? if you are, at all unsure please ask her to find somewhere to stay for a while,, it's just not worth the risk.

Your dw needs help. You dd needs protection.

What are you going to do?

24 hour supervision?

I have some friends, who are no longer a couple, who went through something similar with their 13yo daughter last year. There were physical fights between mother and daughter that included hair-pulling, pinching, pushing and wrestling.

Clearly the mother lost control and behaved outrageously, and failed to behave like a parent; but it was not so simple as to say she 'abused' her daughter, because the girl was 4-6 inches taller than her, equally strong or stronger, and wanting a fight.

I agree with the posters who say that provocation is what teenagers do, and that the adult thing to do is to rise above it and walk away. But I have also been on the receiving end of violence from my own much taller and stronger son, and I know how desperately frightening and threatening it is. If I'm honest, I can see that if my son had been a daughter, I might have fought 'her', rather than calling the police as I did.

In my friends' case, I could also see there was a background to it that included the husband repeatedly undermining the wife in front of the daughter, and failing to back up her parenting decisions, over more than a year. A common pattern was teenager is rude or aggressive to mum; mum attempts to discipline; teen refuses to comply and calls on dad; dad sides with daughter and revokes any punishment; teenager gloats and takes opportunity to openly disrespect mum; dad laughs.

From the dad's perspective, the mum was abusing their daughter. From the mum's perspective, the dad and daughter were abusing her.

It was thoroughly dysfunctional, and it sometimes felt like they were all children, rather than two parents and a child.

OP, in your original post, you said you wanted to make sure nothing like this ever happens again. Here are my suggestions, for what they're worth.

Agree as a family that today was appalling, and that from now on, you will have a 'no physical violence' rule. None. Ever. Agree that everyone in the family has a right to be safe and feel safe.

Agree that, as the adults and parents, you and your wife will uphold this, and if anyone starts to be violent, you will stop them - by calling the police if necessary.

Talk to your wife honestly about how things are for her. Is it possible she feels some of what I've described happening with my friends? Does she need more parenting 'back up' from you?

Parenting teens can be very, very hard. It is common for teens to be particularly awful to their mums. Your DD may be behaving in ways you don't even see. This does not excuse your wife's loss of control, but it may explain it - and with some extra support, she may be able to deal with conflict much better.

I suggest that you and your wife read the book "Get out of my life - but first take me and Alex into town". It gives insight into teenage behaviour and helps make it all feel less personal.

Consider some family therapy.

Good luck to you all. :)

So it's not the first time she has used violence, just maybe the first time her target was her child rather than her husband. If you can't get her To seek help then get some for yourself and DD, speak To the GP yourself about the violence.

And don't blame yourself, as Worra has pointed out your wife is responsible for her actions. Also, the fact her hands were round DDs throat for 'only 2 seconds' is immaterial, they shouldn't have been around her daughter's throat.

I'm sorry but at the instant the hands were round the throat she would cease to be my wife, she would instead be the adult physically attacking my child.

All bets would be off, she would be out of the house and the police called.

No group therapy, no soul searching, no compromises and no suggested reading list.

I'd never really seen DV apologism in action until I read this thread and frankly, I was utterly flummoxed

If she hits you and hits the teen daughter what could possibly make you think that this will improve without somebody taking sole and absolute responsibility for your children whatever the cost to your marriage?

What flow said, particularly this:

"Agree as a family that today was appalling, and that from now on, you will have a 'no physical violence' rule. None. Ever. Agree that everyone in the family has a right to be safe and feel safe.

Agree that, as the adults and parents, you and your wife will uphold this, and if anyone starts to be violent, you will stop them - by calling the police if necessary."

and this:

"Consider some family therapy."

The best plan is probably for your wife to go the GP and ask to be recommended/referred to family therapy. I am not quite sure how it works when it's the adult who has the main emotional problems- we have been getting family therapy through CAHMS because the diagnosable person in our family is a teenager. But your GP should know.

Whatever your GP comes up with, the essential thing is that you all have to agree on a zero tolerance policy from now on. It's the only safe way.

My DW agreed to to go our GP and seemed very upset and very sorry last night.

This morning less so.

ON the way to work I reminded her about going to the Doctors and that I would go with her. She became angry saying that she'd already agreed to go and did not want me to go with her.

I said quite clearly that it was important for her to go and reminded her quite clearly of why.

She didn't have an answer for that.

When I got home my DD asked if i had to get DW from work and
"couldn't you just leave her there?"

northernDad this must be so difficult for you. It's easy for me to say kick her out because I don't love her or have a history with her. But your daughter is hurting and scared and you really need to protect her. Especially as this is not the first time she has been physical. I am making the assumption that you are probably bigger and stronger than your wife, apologies if this is not the case, but if she was willing to be physical with you then imagine what she is capable of doing to someone who is probably smaller than her, again assuming your daughter is smaller than your wife. And your little one definitely is.

Your daughter has implied she doesn't want her mum to come home.
Please consider asking your wife to go and stay elsewhere until her behaviour has improved.

Northerndad, you sound like a loving dad and a good husband. I know this must be hard for you. Please consider leaving her and taking your daughter with you.

You say you have a 2 year old...they can 'push' too. What happens if it's her throat next time?

northernDad, this is the difficult part: she has calmed down and got over the initial shock of yesterday, so her next reaction is to want to minimise what happened

you must stay firm and insist that this is something that affects the whole family, so the whole family has to be involved in dealing with it

her just slipping quietly off to the doctor and never having to talk over the problem with the rest of you just isn't going to work

you all have to talk safely- however painful that is to her - and if she isn't able to face that, then that is a sign that she is not committing to making your children's home safe