Teenage sons' sexual behaviour

[crackerjackie]

Hi guys, new on here, first post, reason I joined really...
It's about my sons' sexual behaviour, and my reaction to it...not sure how to preface it, so will just get on and explain situation. They are both 18, twins. They have never been particularly close, or I should say particularly friendly, at least for most of their lives. I think they resent being twins and so on, as kids they used to antagonise each other but as they reached early adolesence this just turned to avoiding one another (to my relief). Anyway, when they were 15 one of them got into quite a lot of trouble and spent several months in YO. Despite them never being close before this was hard for both of them, and when he came out their relationship was a little warmer, though he was then 2 years behind his brother in school and they still were not what I would call "friends", though their relationship was more friendly than before.

However, several weeks ago my youngest son (he is 16), who is quite close to the twin who was in prison, got in trouble, along with the same twin. There was a girl involved (she is not the reason for the trouble, not directly). Anyway, cut a very long story short a lot of things came out about my children, namely the twins, and their relationship, which as their mother, have stunned me.

It turns out they have been playing some sort of sex games, if you want to call them that, and they regularly meet up on nights out with their friends and "share" the girls they have pulled, or go on the prowl (for want of a better expression) together. They will go off and have sex with this girl, together. Quite sadistic sex too, from what I can gather.

They are both 18 and so perfectly legal, and as far as I am aware these girls have all been consenting. My problem is that I do not know how to handle this situation. I came by this information initially from my youngest son, who confessed that he was jealous of his brothers' sexual activity and had wanted to get in on the act, so to speak. I have spoken to one twin about this (the one who has been in YO) and he quite cheerfully confirmed it, and embellished me with a few more parts when I questioned him (he has always delighted in shocking people, esp me). The other twin has gone off to university in another city, while his brothers remain in their second last year of school. He comes back regularly and these games carry on when he returns. I do not know how or if, to approach this with him. He has always been the "better" of the twins, has never been in trouble like his brother, top of the class, deputy head boy, sporty, well behaved, sort of a dream child in a way. It disturbs me to learn that my sons have indulged in such behaviour, and also that it seems to be having an effect on their younger brother, who is aware of it. As I said, I know they are of age and I am not aware of any of their behaviour being against anyone's consent and so from that perspective, there is nothing I can do to stop them. I know they are young and exploring their sexuality, and I feel it would be hypocritical of me to be too harsh as I was young once too and have experienced my fair share of kink. What upsets me however is how predatory their behaviour seems to have been, how calculated and controlled, not spur of the moment youthful recklessenss, and also how regular an occurrence this was (/is). I know drugs and alcohol have been involved which also concerns me, as though I said all the girls were, as far as I know, consenting, I cannot help but wonder how impaired their judgement may have been, and how possible it is my sons may have preyed on this fact. Please help, this is a deeply disturbing thing for me as I'm sure you can appreciate. Just typing this has been hard. I do not know what to do, how I should go about confronting my sons about this and what I should do or say, including my younger son who thinks the world of his older brothers. I have not yet spoken to their father of this (we are together) because he is sick, and I do not know how to tell him. I have always been the liberal parent, he is very conservative, quite moral and religious, with quite a high powered job, and this would tear him apart. I just do not know what to do, I feel completely lost and in shock. I feel I have failed at being a parent, though I have tried my hardest, and wonder if my more liberal parenting has had an effect, though I always impressed upon them respect of women and sex and relationships, or so I thought. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated, please I just do not know what to do.

it is really hard to comment without knowing your sons well
kids have access to internet sites where they learn about stuff like kinky sex sooner that they areready for it

what is alarming me is this I know drugs and alcohol have been involved which also concerns me, as though I said all the girls were, as far as I know, consenting, I cannot help but wonder how impaired their judgement may have been, and how possible it is my sons may have preyed on this fact.

I would not worry about the kinky aspect of sex, more about as you said - alcohol and drugs.

I would recommend you register yourself on this site and on one of the boards started identical thread (perhaps on other BDSM), I think you would need to wait few days before you can post

don't be affraid, people there are very friendly, sometimes perhaps harsh in their judgment but I am sure they will give you many valuable poiners as many of them knew they were kinky from an early age

I am sure MN parents will come ups with good advice, but to know how it feels to be a teenager and kinky very few will know.

Hope you will learn more about how to talk to them - but I think being up front and honest about it is good. Also great that one of the twins talked to you about it - that is always sign of good relationship you have with them.

Obviously apart from other concerns they should use protection and be aware that bodily fluids can carry on disease, hence need to wear gloves, use antiseptic wipes etc. Would you say your son is ready to go and get himself tested for STD?

Does he know about safe play rules, use of safe word etc - that is why people who indulge in kink are against mixing it with alcohol and drugs - too many things can go wrong.

Once yo uread more about kinky sex you will be able to discuss it with them - this may be fact that they are into rough sex, but they MUST know the risk it carries and what is the responsibility they take on themselves.

You don't have to claim to know everything before you talk about it further with them, nor be judgmental.

Hi happyavocado, thanks so much for your response, I will definitely have a look at that site and see what advice I can get from there...as you said, the thing that concerns me most is the drugs and alcohol, and more even than my sons' use of it, but the fact I fear they may be supplying the girls with this and using it to get them to join in. I have put this quite bluntly to my son, the idea of consent and whether it can really be considered consent when the girl is off her face on some substance or another - I don't know how appropriate it really is, but I do have quite an adult relationship with this particular son and I brought up one or two times when I was younger and had had a bit too much to drink, ended up in bed with some guy more than happy to take advantage of a girl in that position and though I technically gave my consent, felt awful about it the next day. DS's response? A shrug and assurance that the girls find sleeping with brothers, particularly identical twins, kinky and are "totally into it."

I have no issue as i said discussing this issue with this particular son, it is his brother (whose behaviour most shocked me) I am at a loss to approach the subject with. I am totally flummoxed also how to bring this up with their father, or even if I should. The boys have always been fairly open with me about sex etc, but their father will hear none of it and pretty much thinks they should save sex for marriage (which is pretty hypocritical of him I must say, we are not married). As well as this, their younger brother is aware of their behaviour (he won't tell me how he knows, but I have the feeling they have been using the fact they are sexually active and he isn't to lord it over him) and while it is not the sex itself that bothers me it is more my concern over how they might treat the girls in this situation, younger son is quite close to DS2 being in the same class now and he worships him, obviously I do not want him to think plying girls with drink and drugs is any way to go about it. I tried to bring it up with him the other day but he is quit e different to the twins, mortified to talk about anything related to sex to me, ran off and barricaded himself in his bedroom when I tried to bring the subject up. I know this is probably quite normal at his age (god knows the thought of my dad trying to talk to me about sex at 16 horrifies me even now; I'm kind of thankful he never tried) but I really feel I need to discuss this with him, as I don't want all his attitude to sex to come from what he thinks his brothers are up to, or what they tell him to wind him up.

I don't really know exactly what I'm looking for here, advice I suppose on how to broach this subject with my other sons, as well as possibly their father, and also how to handle my own reaction to it...I am not a prude by any stretch and always enjoyed a varied sex life myself, weird as it is to think of my kids having sex I do appreciate it's normal, and that experimenting is healthy, I am just very uncomfortable with the way they are going about getting these girls, which as I said is very calculated and measured, whether the things they are engaging in are a little extreme for NSA sex (though my details are vague, I can surmise they probably are, or at least what I would consider a bit extreme for a ONS) and also the idea that they do it together; my son assures me it is only him and his brother, that none of their friends are "in on it" and I can't quite shake off the feeling that there is something not quite right with this, they are brothers and engaging in sex with one girl together (I was assured it was only ever one at a time - more than one girl would "dilute it"). I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me. I know it's hard sometimes coming to terms with your kids' sexuality and gosh, I thought I had it sussed, but this has totally blindsided me, I feel at such a loss...

crackerjackie, that sounds like a very complicated situation. I don't have a coherent response, but I do have a few thoughts...

Firstly, I think this might now be a case of 'too much information'. If it were me, I think I would give them your view on this - telling them very clearly that you have serious concerns about what they are doing - but then disengage from any further discussions about it. They are, as you say, consenting adults - and it's difficult enough to talk to your children about 'normal' sex, let alone 'kinky' sex that makes you uncomfortable. So I think my line would be: this is your private business: if you need my advice, I'll always try to help you, but I don't want to hear details. (I think it's like any other 'personal' issue with grown-up children: I'd buy my teen son some pile ointment, but I wouldn't want to look at the piles! I'd tell him where to get condoms, and even take him to get some, but I wouldn't want to hear any anecdotes about how he uses them!)

That said, I think your sons are putting themselves in a very 'tricky' situation. You know this already, and I expect you've told them. With two of them, there is of course an increased chance that they could be seen as pressuring or even raping a single girl. Of course, generally speaking, in sexual situations it's one person's word against another's, so there is very little chance of prosecution even if something has happened, because there's no evidence. In your sons' case, there would always be a witness, because there are two of them - albeit a witness who is involved and not independent. And I don't know what kind of 'previous trouble' they (or just one of them?) have (has?) been in, but they should both consider whether it could possibly influence how any incident with a girl could be regarded, and how it would be treated... Oh it's such difficult ground for you :(

There was a high court case in 2007 that ruled on the issue of consent - which basically says that if a woman becomes too drunk to consent, sex is rape, even if she consented earlier in the same evening... But if she continues to consent, then it can't be considered rape, even if she feels regret afterwards. There's a Guardian article with summary here - maybe you could show them this?

It's obviously more of a concern with your 16yo than your 18yos. But the legal issues are the same, since 16 is the age of consent. I guess you might need to talk more to your younger son about what a difficult position he'd be putting himself in, and how (maybe depending on personalities) he might find himself pressured to do things he wouldn't choose to do himself, because his big brother 'told him' to - but how this would be no excuse and no defence.

I don't think you should feel bad or responsible. It's the hardest thing about being a parent of a teen, I find - that terrible powerlessness, as you realise you can no longer stop them from doing anything, however much you might want to :(

But but but... Finally... On a brighter note... This might just be 'fun'. I imagine many boys fantasise about group sex, and girls too. I guess if I could find two men I totally trusted to go to bed with me simultaneously, I probably wouldn't say no!

And I think there's a fair chance it will all fizzle out. At some point, one or both or all of them will realise love isn't the same as sex, and each boy will want a relationship - which will mean something one-to-one and personal, without his brother. :)

Good advice from previous posters, but I'm understanding something different, I think. Are you implying that the boys are giving the girls drink and drugs (ie, reducing their capacity to consent) then having sex with them?

Hmm I'm not that much older than your twins, I would say young men going twos up on a young woman isn't even considered kink these days. This generation have not learnt about sex from a fumble round the back of the bikesheds, they have leart about sex from hardcore readily accessible misogynistic internet porn.

This is a widespread cultural problem and I dare say there is little you can do as a parent to prevent it. However it can't hurt to let them know how it makes you view them, they need to learn that there are consequences to their actions, and if that means losing some respect from the woman who brought you into the world well so be it.

Personally, I can't bear to have sex with men my own age and am currently in a relationship with someone over 10 years older - sex with the internet generation is all about subjugating and humiliating women - coming in her face, penetrating her anus even if she's crying out in pain, spit roasting etc These are all well and good if you're a sexually mature woman who has made a conscious decision to partake in these activities and are getting off on it as much as the blokes, but not so good amongst drug addled youngsters who are just conforming to the damaging, exploitative scenes they see in porn.

greenblue - it's eye opening what you are writing here
I think no one my age realizes that....

I'm probably a similar age to greenblue,

Although there is a lot of truth in greenblue's post. porn from a young age is definitely an issue. I/friends have never actually come across a man behaving like that in real life but their are always exceptions. I am with someone my age.

are they identical twins? if so then maybe their is pressure on both sides, twins are seen as a 'novelty' in those circles and generally its women though but that interest in twins does exist. So maybe a predatory attitude may exist towards them too.

Like she said , a threesome isn't really considered kink theses days its like something out of a carry on film. and BDSM tbh.

I totally agree with an above point about too much information, there is a reason why parents aren't supposed to know about their kids sex lives, mind bleach doesn't quite cover it lol. I thought reading your OP , stop asking questions!!! in the nicest way. their private life is just that.

and also as they get older they may grow out of this.

you need a and maybe just give them a careful caution about risky behaviour. thats all thats needed really.

Also , be careful how appropriate your anecdotes are. they don't need to know how your sex life was and detailed stories of specific sexual encounters , although you mean well are really crossing a boundary. Its great to talk about sex in general , but when you go into specifics about certain incidents thats too far, you may create more damage.

I'm only saying this as my mother used to do that and tbh It really damaged me. and crossed lots of boundaries. I cannot bring myself to talk about 'it' in an adult context. like complete shut down, I'm in my early 20's and my reaction is like that on an 80 year old prude. just a little warning.

Hi guys, OP here, couldn't login for some reason?thanks for the replies some good points here, and some voicing my exact fears... I suppose from the POV that they are adults and their private lives are their business I do have to just suck it up and see my reaction as my own problem, but I still have issues here. I suppose the greatest one is as agentprovocateur pointed out; my sons are giving the girls drink and drugs before sleeping with them. I suppose to put it in context, I have to give a bit more background, awful as it is?

When he was 15 one of the twins - the same one who has been quite open with me about his recent behaviour - was caught with a mate stealing money for drugs. They were robbing a girlfriend of a "friend" and my son was caught with his hands up her skirt, so to speak. She testified that this was against her consent, though my son insisted it wasn't and that she only said that so as to not get in trouble with her boyfriend. Needless to say the court wasn't very sympathetic to his version of events (and, if I'm brutally honest, neither am I).
He spent a good year in YO; we have since moved and he has been a pretty good kid since then.

A few weeks ago younger DS was in a fight, had the crap beaten out of him by what turned out to be the brother of a girl he has been seeing. When I sat down to discuss what had happened with him he burst out everything that his brothers have been up to, his way of deflecting attention away from himself. He told me I had no idea, thought I was so great, the usual sort of teenage stuff, and decided to inform me of my other sons' behaviour. While I was shocked, I have quite a good relationship now with the twin who still lives at home (the one who has previously been in trouble) and I brought this up with him. He was quite cool and more than happy to embellish me with the details - as I said, he always delighted in shocking people, esp us, his parents. Anyway he told me how they went about it, and alluded quite strongly to what they do and my greatest concern is if anything went wrong, the fact of the matter is it definitely looks as if my sons are plying these girls with drugs and alcohol to get them to agree. Some of these girls are in my sons' school classes and so, while of consenting age for sex, they are underage when it comes to drinking. This, coupled with DS's previous, is of grave concern to me and is the biggest issue here. I suppose if he didn't have prior history and I was sure they weren't doing anything illegal as far as the girls are concerned, however uncomfortable I may be with it, I would be more able to tell myself to suck it up and try and find a way to deal with my own reservations. However it is this, as well as the effect I fear their attitudes and actions could have on their younger brother, that concerns me. He is a very impressionable sort, unlike the twins who are both very strong characters in their own ways and he really looks up to them.

Also, I don't know how or if I should broach this subject with their father. As I said, he is not the sort to look lightly on this at all, and he is quite sick at the moment. I do not want to burden him with more stress, nor do I want to be the one to "rat out" my kids, when it might not even be necessary. Perhaps I am just being cowardly here as I know he would blame me and my parenting attitudes, but I am really torn about whether I should or not, and if I do, how I go about doing it.

I apologise if these replies are so long and wordy, I am in such a quandary here and since we moved we don't live near any family or really close friends and tbh even if we did I am not sure who I would feel comfortable bringing up a subject like this with anyway?the twin I have spoken to doesn't seem to grasp, or want to grasp, what I've been saying, and as for the other twin, should I bring up the subject with him alone, them together, both?? I just don't know and I'm very concerned about their behaviour, as I said not necessarily because of the sex itself, but predatory nature of how they go about it. I appreciate the replies of the younger people here their own generation who probably understand their attitude better than me, but I am really not comfortable with the idea they pick out these girls esp when they know them, and they know they might be vulnerable, load them with drink and drugs, and do some quite extreme stuff, just with my sons' history and all I just cannot shake off the feeling that this could go horribly horribly wrong, for him in particular...

Are the boys as hammered? are all the girls younger.

all hammered people getting amorous together is one thing , the girls being hammered and if they are not it is concerning.

Do you bring it up a lot btw, if it gets a rise out of you and this is the 'new thing' maybe they just exaggerate to shock you. perhaps.

I've only brought it up with one twin, once. I did ask about how much alcohol he would consume when doing this, plus any other drugs as I know his history with them. He told me he'd have a few lagers but that "it's better to spend drink money on the girls" and that he wouldn't bother with the drugs himself in such a situation as they have a negative physical effect on him (he was a lot more graphic in his language than that...I have always said his tendency for brutal honesty is one of his greatest flaws!!).

The other twin does not drink at all and according to his brother doesn't have any truck with drugs either, though apparently not when it comes to giving them to girls...

As for the girls, I don't know, nor do I want to know, all about them. I did ask DS if they were girls the boys know, he said sometimes; sometimes they will go to a bar or club and pull, sometimes they are girls he knows from school. Because of his troubles before he was kept back two years in school and is only entering lower sixth now, so those girls are all 16/17, possibly younger I don't know. I just don't know what to do

Blimey my post was very pessimistic wasn't it! As theback points out not all men of our generation are the same but it is very widespread. I've dated some really quite educated 'right on' men who still have worrying porn style sexual practises - a tell tale sign is that they flip you around changing position every two minutes, it's performance sex not sex actually based on any kind of pleasure.

Their attitudes towards female body image is completely distorted too. I had a friend at uni who was genuinely shocked that real women have brown anuses, in the porn he'd watched he'd only ever seen pink bleached ones! Many find pubic hair (or any body hair) repulsive, they're just not used to seeing it - interestingly my first older partner was slightly alarmed at my er.. pubic styling he was used to his partners actually having outward signs of female sexual maturation not the baldy look!

If you want to know more about this culture and how it impacts upon young women 'Living Dolls' by Natasha Walters is a really good read.

Sorry OP missed your later posts there. It sounds as if you have quite a situation on your hands. It sounds as though the son with history definitely has some sexually harmful behaviours. Maybe you could familiarise him with the Sexual Offenses Act 2003. I assume he doesn't want to end up back inside, but that's where he's heading playing fast and loose with issues of consent. I really feel for the girls you're describing :(

Hi greenblue, thanks, that's not a bad idea, at least with that son I know I could bring up the issue, give him the information and be like "it's in your hands now", without giving him an opportunity to try and shock me any further. I'm still stuck with my other sons and partner though too, head is wrecked.

And gosh, I feel so concerned for the girls too, it's their business if they're of age and consenting, but I have concerns that some of them aren't...god I wish my DS came with a warning, for me and for the girls!! I love him to pieces but as you say he is playing fast and loose here and I am so concerned something is going to go wrong and he is going to end up in a ridiculous amount of trouble. As his mother I just want to do what I can to make sure that doesn't happen

I've thought a lot about this issue, as DS1 will be going to uni the autumn, and although he is in a nice steady relationship with a lovely girl, I know from nieces and nephews that the sexual landscape is very much about predatory males having sex with as many females as possible, in as many ways as possible.

There is a breath-taking level of disrespect for women as people. Their sole role is to give the boys pleasure.

The girls largely partake in order to be validated as attractive, and because long term relationships are not on offer. Sex with no strings is all there is if you want sex at all.

I wonder if it might be worth getting MNHQ to repost this in the feminist section? I'm sure they'll have lots of useful advice.

tbh I wouldn't do that no disrespect greenblue, I Don't want the OP being torn a new one (excuse the pun) some people get quite attacked there and it can be very nasty. this is a very sensitive subject.

I admit till I read the hand up the skirt part I just thought young lads getting a lot of 'kink' out of their system.

What do you hope to achieve OP? out of curiosity.

BDSM doesn't have to mean abusive etc its been around for a long time.

If the issue of consent is your bigger worry perhaps just say to him

'be careful getting them too drunk, it wouldn't look good given your history' would that be enough to make him think?.

"I wonder if it might be worth getting MNHQ to repost this in the feminist section? I'm sure they'll have lots of useful advice."

Yes. I def think the folks in the Feminist section could have some knowledge to share on this sensitive issue.

If the OP's son was to post in feminism he'd get a rough time but not a mother who recognises her sons' actions as exploitative and who wants advice on how to challenge them. I've seen plenty of discussions over there about women trying to raise their sons in/ against a culture of misogyny, the OP is not alone. But nevermind, was just an idea.

OP I also really feel for you, your son being so graphic and trying to shock you sounds utterly disrespectful. I hope you're able to put some boundaries around this.

maybe she should, some posters will be helpful but some clearly enjoy having a 'pop' I just don't want her to wish she'd never bothered.

I think tbh what you're posting is really worrying - am I right that you're saying that one of your twins was in a young offenders institution for sexual assault.

And that now your twins are (I apologise for being so blunt) now coming close to gang raping 16 year old girls by getting them drunk under age thus taking away their ability to consent.

If this is an accurate summary I think you have no choice but to address these issues directly with them - as a couple - no matter how uncomfortable your dh finds it.

You really need to point out how close these actions are to criminal behaviour.

So very sorry for you :(

Hmm, yeah I mean are the girls like active members of like bdsm

groups/community whatever? (you probably won't know).

Or are they just picking up drunk girls from bars , or not as the case may be if they are underage.

at first my assumption was they are all part of like 'the bdsm community' which in that case let them get on with it.

When you said he enjoys shocking you though I wonder if he like perhaps embellishes things to provoke.

I'm surprised he hasn't figured out himself how costly his behaviour could be.

sorry to double post, but like I said earlier ^^

'be careful getting them too drunk, it wouldn't look good given your history' would that be enough to make him think?.

Argh such a tough situation , I thinking what can you actually do?.

I definitely don't read this as a bdsm situation, bdsm is a conscious decision not usually practised by teenagers still at school. The later post about one of the twin's history seems to confirm its something more sinister. OP all you can do is advise them but ultimately they are adults and they are the ones responsible for their actions. Best of luck.