A last a more considered approach to sunscreen use!

[brightbrightsun]

Every year I have a meltdown over sunscreen. Ingredients, consistency, application all being considerations.

Some ingredients break down (both chemical and mineral) within a couple of hours and actually cause more skin damage. Some cause hormonal disruption, some environmental damage. Some sunscreens are sticky, messy, sweat off easily, get over everything.

The most readily available forms of Vitamin D comes from sunlight. Deficiencies have been linked to circulatory diseases and cancer.

The sunscreen industry is massive and increasing.

But skin cancer!

My Eureka moment! A calculator I have found that calculates burn time for different skin types at different UV levels with no sunscreen/ sunscreen factor level. This coupled with the hourly UV forecast has allowed me to see how risky it is to forgo sunscreen depending on the time of day I am going out and how long for.🙂

www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcpvj0v07#?date=2023-04-19

www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=time+to+sunburn&assumption=%7B%22FS%22%7D+-%3E+%7B%7B%22TimeToSunburn%22%2C+%22tb%22%7D%7D&assumption=%7B%22FP%22%2C+%22TimeToSunburn%22%2C+%22SST%22%7D+-%3E+%22ST1%22&assumption=%7B%22F%22%2C+%22TimeToSunburn%22%2C+%22UVI%22%7D+-%3E%223%22

Hope this helps people. I'd be interested to know what others think.

I don't spend all day in the sun, I'm a carer for my son so we are out in the mornings. I do reapply every 2 hours in summer. I don't wear makeup, just a tinted Spf. It's not an issue for me.

She is a a doctor and cosmetic chemist, she spends her entire life looking at this. The link you sent is a US charity and it was a very short article.

Many of us are not only concerned with burning. We are concerned with photo aging. UVA is present 365 days a year and cuts through glass so indoors by a window still affects your skin. By all means if your only concern is burning, follow your matrix. I'll stick to my regime. It works.

@doadeer, ok. But however just because breast cancer.org is a US charity it does not mean their information is unreliable. They give a whole range of support and information to people whose lives are affected by breast cancer, free of charge.

And really, this is not about not using sunscreens ever. It's just about using a more proportionate, moderated, systematic approach to ascertain when sunscreen is required.

Big industry capitalising on health and aging concerns undoubtedly affects advice. The calculator helps provide balance. I think this is important because there are risks present in applying sunscreen and risks present in not applying sunscreen as discussed upthread. Additional information surely can only help negotiate those risks more successfully and in order find a more balanced, moderate solution.

@mybeautifuloak, I am concerned with ageing, I want to get old and age! Which means I am primarily concerned with health! Which is where my concerns started.

Never before has the sunscreen industry being so huge and it is growing. These products not only have affects on our health but also on the environment and wildlife. We are being advised to use masses of the stuff, masses of plastic packaging and product which all is being absorbed by the body and released into the environment. Of course I am interested!

@mybeautifuloak, do you really apply every 2 hours with a broad spectrum sunscreen even indoors?

@mybeautifuloak

All year round? A teaspoon of product for the face?

...you must use masses of product. Do you buy it in bulk?

You do you, OP. If you don't want to wear it then don't.

Meanwhile I will continue to wear high strength sunscreen everyday, rain or shine as I am vain and want to preserve the collagen in my skin as long as possible and UV damage is one of the worst destroyers of collagen.
Like mybeautifuloak said, many people are using it for prevention purposes, as it's easier to prevent sun damage than have to deal with it later on. The damage from UVA rays hasn't been known about for as long as UVB, and UVA is present all year round, whether the sun is shining or not. The damage is cumulative, you won't notice it tomorrow, or next year, but it will show up in 20 years or so.
I heard a dermatologist say once 'your 50 year old face will thank you for wearing regular sunscreen', and I'm going to keep going.

Anecdotally, my best friend doesn't wear any suncream at all, she doesn't really wear creams and lotions, and thinks that sunscreen is con.
Fair enough, there's many things we don't agree on, we have very different outlooks on life. I've known her for more than 15 years and we are now approaching 40, and I can definitely see the difference in our skin. She has fine lines and pigmentation, and age spots that I just don't have. I'm not trying to be mean, I would never say anything, she's happy with her choice and I'm happy with mine. And it's not really 'evidence' of anything really, just an observation.

Unfortunately, the use of sunscreen is also associated with frontal fibrosing alopecia.

Does it? A recent review says there is insufficient evidence:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31654665/#:~:text=There%20is%20insufficient%20evidence%20to,relationship%20between%20sunscreen%20and%20FFA.

I am over 50 now @Farmageddon. and I do wear sunscreen.

Do you really follow all the advice over application, teaspoon of product just for the face, all year round, even indoors, every 2 hours? Using a broad spectrum product. Because if you don't the breakdown of sunscreen ingredients in the product can actually cause more skin damage. This has been known for quite a few years.

www.livescience.com/7117-sunscreen-damage-skin-applied-infrequently.html

There are not many chemical filters that actually protect from UVA and the ones that do can be pretty unstable after 1 and a half to 2 hours. Equally zinc oxide can break down in a similar fashion.

So yes, I will moderate my approach to this.

My solution?

Check the UV on a hourly forecast. Check how long I would take to burn with my skin type using calculator. Use a broad spectrum, long lasting (so fairly robust) sunscreen which is EcoSun Pass approved, sunglasses and a hat when appropriate.

Sunscreen is something of a cult on the S&B board. I find it interesting that the very pro-SPF replies are the rudest, suggesting an emotional investment in the subject.

My skin, aged 50, no make up, for reference.

OP, you look great, you're happy with your choice - so what's the problem if other people choose different? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

I don't rub my sunscreen off and reapply every 2 hours, that would mean taking off makeup several times a day. I do have a powder mineral sunscreen that I apply over my make up. I'm happy with that.

Thanks, @Farmageddon .

I am really not trying to prove anything. Just pointing people to additional information which I was extremely pleased to find myself in order to help others negotiate their way through all the advice and find a solution that fits their skin type and lifestyle. And hopefully help the environment.

I don't like to keep on adding mineral powder to my face throughout the day, as personally I find adding more and more powder on top of what I am wearing, every two hours would begin to look cakey on my skin. My makeup, apart from lip product pretty much lasts all day. If I wear sunscreen I use Ultrasun (long lasting lamellar technology formulation) which lasts for the amount of time I need it too.

Yes, I read the abstract of that 2019 study, too.
”Frontal fibrosing alopecia (FFA) is a cicatricial alopecia of unknown etiology. The incidence of FFA appears to be increasing with time, leading to suspicion of a possible environmental trigger. Observational studies have reported a positive correlation between facial sunscreen use and FFA. This finding raises the question of whether sunscreen use plays a role in disease development. In this article, we review the available literature on the association of sunscreen with FFA. There is insufficient evidence to establish a direct causal relationship between sunscreen and FFA. Further studies are required to better characterize the role of sunscreen and the environment in the pathogenesis of this unique disease.”

My reading of this is that there is a question about this apparent correlation but that evidence of a direct cause can only be provided by a proper study.

My dermatologist advised me of this association between sunscreen and FFA, and of the need for further study.
As well as the observational data, there have also been observations that hair regrowth has happened on cessation of sunscreen use. The suspicion is that titanium dioxide in some sunscreens may affect the hair follicles.
Those of us unfortunate enough to have FFA may therefore wish to use sunscreen without TD, keep it away from the hairline or cease using it, pending any studies.

I don't like an inference that a more moderate approach to sunscreen is negligent, though, or the amount of product some advice requires people to use, buy and discard once over a year old.

Morning, I've never heard of sunscreen ingredients causing skin damage. My knowledge goes as far as checking how many UV stars a product has and whether it will irritate my face. I always wear sunscreen on my face when UV is high, not necessarily on other exposed parts unless it's very high. I'm fair but do tan, I walk but don't tend to sit in the sun now. If I checked out all the links provided I'd be scared to try anything as my brain is already fried with medications, it's a lot to take in.
What actual brands are named as having ingredients that cause damage when they break down?
Today I will use a daily moisturiser with an SPF of 15 and 5 stars, that's all I've ever checked. My skin is good for 50.

@WoofWoofBeachLife. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is a whole host of them. You really need to do the research to find out all the effects of each sun filter.

My go to sunscreen is Ultrasun as it is long lasting so therefore must have a degree of robustness and has won environmental awards.

And yes, @WoofWoofBeachLife it is an awful lot for a consumer to negotiate. Hence my own sun screen meltdown nearly every year as I check out up to date formulations.

Undiluted sun is the only thing that really sorts out my psoriasis, so I use as little sunscreen as possible, which is mainly none. Living in the UK and working at an indoor job, I struggle to get enough UV rays as it is. Sunscreen is pretty much reserved for southern holidays only!

I am not a redhead but have typical Celtic skin tone (blue!). I was just outside for 15 mins. Slightly burnt within 10. That app would mean I blister!!!

Thanks for the info, @Terryscombover. So I think a conservative approach would be useful.

I am planning to proceed with caution. With a hat and highish necklines and only unprotected in slightly a UV higher than 2. Maybe UV3 going down to UV2 within the hour if I am going out for an hour. I usually don't wear sunscreen in UVs 2 or lower as per official advice and have experienced no problems with this.

I'm naturally light brown/blonde hair, blue eyes but I don't tend to burn as easily as you. I have been burnt before, I remember in the 80s a backless dress meant I had a nasty burn on the back of my neck. But as a child only burnt occasionally and it was the 70s! We only wore suncream on holidays or if we were sun bathing. We played outside pretty much every day. Factor 10 was the highest factor we had! Since then I have been used to covering up quite a lot more.

@brightbrightsun I can remember being sunburned a lot when I was a child as we were always outside. I can't remember my Mum ever using sunscreen for us. The peeling was the best bit but obviously not for our skin.
I will have a look at the sunscreens I have here and what ingredients they have.

I did find this during this year's all things sunscreen and sun acclimatisation reading which might be of interest from the NHS

https://www.nhstaysidecdn.scot.nhs.uk/NHSTaysideWeb/idcplg?IdcService=GETSECUREEFILE&dDocName=PROD350532&Rendition=web&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&noSaveAs=1#:~:text=You%20can%20try%20to%20build,or%20develop%20a%20sunburn%20reaction.

Apparently some people with sun sensitivity can acclimatise their skin to sunlight. Now I have suffered from a rash in the sun numerous times before...