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Can we talk about clothing brands and target demographics?

1000 replies

CrkdLttrCrkdLttr · 28/02/2023 13:33

Because I’m thinking about the brands that form the core of my ‘going out to meet other grown ups’ wardrobe, and laughing at the Margaret Howell mail shot I’ve just opened. (Socks and sandals photo.) Beautiful young model, and each garment will be wonderfully well made - but I know no one under fifty who wears MH. That’s fine - but I wish the marketing acknowledged the fact.

When a brand does make an effort to engage with the real buyers of its clothes I’m full of awe and gratitude - Raey at Matches is usually great at this.

Studio Nicholson hovers somewhere in between. Again, everyone I know (in the UK) who wears their clothes is older and richer than me, probably in a creative profession. Not a wispy 20 year old.

I never used to care. But I’m wondering if marketing is the reason 99% of the middle aged and older women on MN exclaim that there are no decent clothes for them. There are - but not every brand tells you so.

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thedevilinablackdress · 09/03/2023 01:56

Don't apologise @Enheduanna it's reminded me of how much my DM taught me about clothes and the fun we used to have trawling the charity shops, and on the high street in the heady days of the 90s/early 00s that @Floisme has mentioned.

MerryChristmasToYou · 09/03/2023 08:24

@Enheduanna ,that's a bit like how I shop too. I buy most of my clothes in charity shops or second hand. I often have something in mind, and sometimes find the very thing in my local high street, or I find something so unusual and so me that I buy it anyway.
IRL I probably look like I got dressed in the dark, and my wardrobe is for a me with a different life

Going to London is for seeing what there is, then if I want to, I'll buy it or go back in to get it a week or two later. I live near London.
I definitely have favourite shops.

Could you recommend some shops in London that I could go and check out please?

MerryChristmasToYou · 09/03/2023 08:28

The MH looks like Cos only in drabber colours post upthread - yes, but...
Some Cos looks very MH, but a lot doesn't.
With MH, you know it will work, even if it doesn't have 'hanger appeal' and you know what quality to expect. Some of the Cos stuff is great, but a lot is H&M with a 'better' label IMO. I like H&M too, but often the fabric and stitching lets it down, even if the style is good.

CrkdLttrCrkdLttr · 09/03/2023 08:39

Not quite sure what to make of this article on historical dressing - but this seems a good place to leave it.

www.vogue.co.uk/fashion/article/historical-dressing-women-of-colour

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botemp · 09/03/2023 09:18

I think the title sets it up for confusion, Modern Art has a definition tied up into the Modernist movement that would thoroughly reject embracing historical styles. I get what they were trying to say and a different person probably created the title but it just sets the whole article up for confusion for me (also I had to check I was on British not American Vogue).

I go back and forth on the historical costumers (or whatever they prefer to call themselves), many tend to gloss over the less palatable side of history, especially as it relates to women and how that translated into clothes. But at the end of the day it's just clothes and I see it more as an exploration of identity than fashion.

CrunchyCarrot · 09/03/2023 09:30

Definitely not over earnest @Enheduanna. I totally relate to handling fabrics and learning by touch and seeing clothes in different ambient light and so on. I don't think I do nearly as well buying clothes online if I hadn't had that original experience long before the Internet existed. My problem is with sizing and how much it varies, and how some sites don't give actual measurements. Plus sometimes one's browser doesn't do the colour justice, nor the fabric thickness, etc.

CrkdLttrCrkdLttr · 09/03/2023 11:32

I don't think I’d do nearly as well buying clothes online if I hadn't had that original experience long before the Internet existed.

Totally! Half a century’s worth, in my case. And yet, this morning I’m on tenterhooks after finally pressing ‘Buy now’ on a dress I’ve been obsessing over for weeks. The shop does give full details of measurements for each size, but I haven’t bought from this brand before so, despite numerous photos and a video clip, I have no idea if it will actually fit me properly. But at least I’ll get to see it. I shop so rarely I probably only need to make the walk of regret to the Post Office once or at most twice a year.

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usernzlknaksdfndiosn · 09/03/2023 12:36

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Kittycattenklump · 09/03/2023 13:29

I was JUST thinking about the UK brand Poetry before I saw this thread, so I will use them as my example/contribution. Agree with so much that has already been said above.

I am attracted to neutral tones and simple designs, especially in linen, cotton or natural wools. Poetry always catches my attention, but I have never purchased from them new, because their marketing and reviews put me off.

Most of the online reviews, and I am assuming most of them are left by middle aged and older women (I am 49), describe the clothing as dramatically oversized - and not in a good way. At 5'4 and on the slimmer, small boned side I do not believe many brands aimed at the over 40's consider smaller framed women (looking at you MH, Toast, etc!).

No brand can represent all of us, whether that's bodytype, height or tastes. But there is a persistent association of higher quality, naturally sourced garments with taller, broader physiques. I manage, of course, since the market in general caters dominantly for slender women, but it is awkward when the styles and fit at Mango, Topshop and Asos are more suitable for your bodyshape than Margaret Howell. It depresses me as I don't want to use those brands. I Love MH!

So who is Poetry's target woman?
She has some money to throw around, and she isn't afraid of the sun. She is probably over 50, and likes a bit of drape. She is likely retired, slightly creative and not terribly mindful of cutting edge trends. She is also very tall and strident, tanned and well travelled.
The models are very tall, slim to curvy, rarely fair skinned or blonde. I see a glowing olive to dark skin bias in most of their campaigns, because the colours and settings compliment them. There are no short, youthful, pale redheads or lighter blondes like you might see modelling clothes at Asos. The Poetry woman is mature, amazonian, understated.

MH, COS, Toast, etc are similar with regards to height and build, although a touch on the slimmer side and less fixated with glowing tans and mediterranean cruise connotations. They might skew a bit younger, especially the models (as the OP mentions above), but I too rarely see women under 40 wearing these brands.
These women are 'makers', mothers, environmentally aware, expressive and mindful of 'protecting' (or projecting?) their identity against a sea of synthetic clones and Hollywood inspired gloss.
They have money to spend and lean towards the arts, which might entail displaying their curated collections of beach stones and seaweed on instagram.
The COS, MH woman might be more urban, city professional; she prefers a bit of structure and can lean towards monochrome (you rarely spy black as a colour option at Poetry, Toast, etc). This is a more sparse aesthetic, but highly considered.

Kittycattenklump · 09/03/2023 13:36

And to add, I am quite a fan of Jane Birkin's tastes as an older woman, often much scorned on here.

MerryChristmasToYou · 09/03/2023 13:45

I think it's that she was so gorgeous when young.
The effortless look is still there.

usernzlknaksdfndiosn · 09/03/2023 14:26

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ.

CrkdLttrCrkdLttr · 09/03/2023 14:36

Impressively comprehensive, @Kittycattenklump ! (I can tell you don’t spend your days flicking through Love Island updates - and then panicking like a wasp-stung cat when someone emails with a polite reminder of the deadline you’ve been studiously ignoring …)

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MerryChristmasToYou · 09/03/2023 14:48

I have some things from Poetry. I am immature but over 50 and definitely not amazonian. Smile
My DM is nearly 80 and wears Poetry.

Not interested in Mango or Asos. Went into the Covent Garden Mango shop years ago and everything I looked at was poorly made and it put me right off. I do have things from Topshop, H&M, Zara,
Primark and New Look. Not many but the odd item.

DM wears Toast, old Boden, Seasalt and Joules, but also likes the old makes like Viyella and Windsmoor. She also likes good old M&S, JL and Uniqlo, as do I.

Not mentioned on here yet, I don't think, but I love some of the Muji stuff, but it's most of everything not just clothes.

Floisme · 09/03/2023 15:27

I have a petite frame but I don't think that's the main reason I've always ended up disappointed with Poetry. For me it's more to do with the cut of the clothes than the size - I don't think they push the envelope quite far enough and end up falling somewhere in between Cos and M&S Classics. Or maybe it's because their linens are nice but not quite weighty enough to carry off the shape. Or maybe a bit of both.

I'm not sure what I make of that article either CrkdLttrCrkdLttr. When all's said and done, I basically just like dressing up but maybe that's a very shallow take on it.

MerryChristmasToYou · 09/03/2023 15:43

@Floisme , I'd say they were about the same as Toast, or in between Toast and Jigsaw/Hobb's.

ThighMistress · 09/03/2023 15:55

What is wrong with Jane Birkin’s style? I think she looks bloody marvellous -really effortlessly stylish.

I agree @Kittycattenklump that the pricier the clothes, the bigger they think you are. I once examined the Victoria Beckham stuff in Selfridges… only a seven-foot tall person could have worn them! Not that I am in that price league, but I would like to buy some mid-range nicer things that aren’t aimed at giant Scandi ceramicists.

botemp · 09/03/2023 16:01

I've just had a look at Poetry (I only know it from South Africa but that's not the same brand) and I'd agree with Flo, they're fairly ordinary clothes just with a lot more ease to them, they don't push the boat out far enough to be recognisable as Poetry clothing if I saw them on somebody.

I actually like Mango although I rarely buy anything there, it's a bit odd though, their basics are worse quality than the trend items, and their Committed and Premium ranges are quite nice quality but only online. I mainly look at Spanish brands in the summer though, less known ones I like are Gimaguas, Loreak Mendian, Paloma Wool (although they're going ever more Insta), Cordera and I really like Bassal Store in Barcelona for their curation of brands I'd previously never heard of (really good customer service too).

My main gripe with online atm is just the sheer volume and lack of curation, there's so many new brands constantly being launched. I'm constantly being plagued by newsletters from the big etailers that I haven't shopped with them for a while with a discount code but it's just impossible to browse with how much there is and none of it is particularly distinctive from each other. I just got a newsletter from &Other Stories and it just looked so bland, in that very flat instagram way, and I wondered what happened there. It was the popular brand to discover when I joined on here. I suppose some has moved onto Sézane but not everyone's budget will that. But even when I visit the Stories shops it's very little that appeals anymore and I remember it being full of things to discover.

ShangPie · 09/03/2023 16:43

CrkdLttrCrkdLttr · 09/03/2023 14:36

Impressively comprehensive, @Kittycattenklump ! (I can tell you don’t spend your days flicking through Love Island updates - and then panicking like a wasp-stung cat when someone emails with a polite reminder of the deadline you’ve been studiously ignoring …)

Just going to leave this here for you Crkd

Can we talk about clothing brands and target demographics?
botemp · 09/03/2023 16:50

I forgot to mention Can Pep Rey in my list of Spanish brands, although their styling really misrepresents them IMO, it's really a quality of fabric focused brand with that insouciant fit (bit like American vintage), their website makes it look very catalogue for some reason.

CrkdLttrCrkdLttr · 09/03/2023 17:14

GrinOnly in my case Deadline usually comes hot on the heels of Fuck Off, @ShangPie. All The Work is often subsequent to a snivelling apology after Deadline. Then Panic - once I’ve pinged the thing off and had time to realise what utter crap I’ve submitted. And it’s too late, and all my peers will be sniggering … Never mind, new dress coming.

Wonderfully I heard David Greig (the great David Greig) observing on Radio 4 this morning, that there’s always a moment just as he’s finishing a final draft, where he realises he will have to let everyone involved know that he’s very sorry but he can no longer be a playwright … Also he was wearing double denim in the photo. 😍

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Kittycattenklump · 09/03/2023 18:01

My main gripe with online atm is just the sheer volume and lack of curation.

This!

What I absolutely LOVE about Jane Birkin's style now isn't about the individual pieces/elements, it's how they all come together, on her, in what feels to me to be a very self loving, authentic projection of her 'self'.
It isn't about how tall, thin, young she may or may not be, it's rather a bit more discreet and much deeper than that. Her clothes seem to comfort her and I really don't get the impression she minds what anyone thinks (as most seemingly nonchalant personalities actually do). JB appears to be a somewhat sensitive, warm, caring soul, who has suffered some great losses, whilst also having lived with a good amount of privilege. She manages to straddle both of these extremes with a very attractive kind of humility, which I do think is mirrored in the clothes she wears - humble, at ease, self aware, and somewhat eccentric.

I see this in myself to some extent, but I don't share her history of confidence or ease in front of the camera. She can take a high end item, such as her famous bag and regard it with a sort of child's inquisitiveness, which is refreshing in a world so sold on status and self loathing.

At the age of 49 I have grown into who I am by rejecting all of the old rules. I dare say I look quite ordinary, but I am drawn to the tactile, sensuousness of certain fabrics and shapes, with a new found liberty to not question my own tastes.
I love flowing, soft lines, fine knits and beautiful fabric. I buy less and less and care very little where from (Ebay is fine by me!) so long as there's an element of durability and thought in the process of creation.

I don't like Brora.
It gets thrown around on here because the cashmere is nice, because some of it is sourced in the UK, and because we are all so tired of fast fashion. But I really, really DO think that Brora are working with the fast fashion model; they likely appeal to those of us with a bit of cash to spare who desire to pursue quality over quantity, but their designs scream fast trends, from the colourways to the cuts, just at exorbitant prices.
Another brand which is pushing youthful models and campaigns to women over 50 - and whilst fantasy and eclecticism might work for a campaign, it doesn't translate well into reality.

Kittycattenklump · 09/03/2023 18:14

Also to add - whenever Jane Birkin (as she is now) topics arise on MN, it is quite wearying to see so many comments along the lines of "Oh, it's just because she's thin".
We need to stop this sort of unthinking, depersonalising, knee jerk reaction to women's (and our own) bodies. It really isn't because 'she is thin' at all.

Jane Birkin, nor any other woman deserves to be reduced to a dress size or an apparent age range. It's a lazy way of dismissing a person's uniqueness and doesn't take any thought.
People have a right to dislike her style, to cringe at her 'ageing disgracefully' (what a repugnant term), but this is exactly what many of us admire about her, whether we would wear the same items or not. It is her ease, openness and a certain kind of grace which is an extension of her own being that flows into her clothes, and this is so very personal. I doubt one can intentionally create that.

We need to work with our own pattern, too, so to my mind exploring how we dress is akin to exploring the self. A bit deep, but nonetheless true. None of us are separate from that thin layer of materials which we use to present ourselves to the world - whether it's for protection from the elements, self expression or as decoration and taste.
This brings up the concept of 'uniform' to me now and that's a whole other ballgame in itself!

usernzlknaksdfndiosn · 09/03/2023 18:46

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Kittycattenklump · 09/03/2023 19:08

I'm reminded of the Monty Don thread! I will be honest and admit I can't really find any brand that speaks to me lately. Even the more ethical, aware brands. I can still spot trends which will age fast, both in the cut and colours, and I can't locate a more 90's style fine knit flowing jumper or cardigan anywhere other than Ebay. Everything is trend driven now, even the new, smaller businesses - boxy knits, very high necks and cropped length.

I do like Handworked and Carrier Company, but neither have a lot of stock - which is refreshing (as opposed to endless scroll) but perhaps too little. There's a very definite aesthetic too though, which just serves to make shopping online feel even more boxed in.....why are so many ethical/small brands so obsessed with chunky, clunky shapes? If only there were more options in terms of styles, from silky, sleek dresses to fisherman's knits. Everything is just so same-y right now.

Apologies for writing a small novel, it was nice to let it blow free Grin

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