So what precisely constitutes Frump?

[linmanuel]

Inspired by the thread about cardigans
I am wondering what makes something frumpy

Love the description “Nothing that remotely says ‘sex’”, Weary

I agree it’s more of an attitude thing, and a question of how you carry yourself: a tea dress and cardigan, for example, can look frumpy on someone who stoops but sexy on someone who walks with confidence/swagger.

I think it is hard to define.
Maybe dressing without thought?
Then maybe also it is a perjoritive term used mainly against women of a certain age. You don’t hear men described as frumpy.
I love clothes , love putting them together and having fun and expressing myself. I am mid 50’s now.

Okay so how can we be sure to avoid it?
(Loving all the replies btw)

A fleece jacket always looks frumpy to me.

Especially worn with walking boots to do the school run rather than going hill walking.

Badly cut short hair and no make up.

Skinny jeans/jeggings with trainers/Chelsea boots are starting to look frumpy now...

Also anything from Hush

It has to be many things but all at once.

Fleece, glasses, hair scraped back, leggings, ugly pumps= frumpy.

Lots of bloggers for 40+ women are really frumpy too. The mismatch between their face age and their choice of clothes seems to emphasise this all the more.

Agree about sludgy, washed-out colours. I also think it’s often about the details: neckline slightly odd, crop at the wrong height, too many fussy extras. The difference between a great fine-knit poloneck and one which is too bulky, or a shirtdress cut deliberately oversized and one that’s just shapeless.

Tbh I think keeping your shoes current solves quite a lot, and just not being too polite about your style. Wear what you want, but really mean it.

Also, as someone who is quite fat, I don’t think that fat has to equal frumpy. You have to be more considered with some clothes, for sure. But the opposite can also be true: a glorious big bum or boobs can bring even the drabbest clothes to life.

GAH! Agree with PPs who mentioned this being another way to do women down. What's the male equivalent of frumpy? "A bit badly dressed"? There's nothing quite so judgemental...no "How dare he not conform to at least a basic standard of attractiveness and style" Grrrr
I love clothes but this makes me sad.

@IVORNOIDEA

Skinny jeans/jeggings with trainers/Chelsea boots are starting to look frumpy now...

But everyone from teens to 50 + still wear skinnies and trainers etc as far as I can tell. I think it's more that they are ubiquitous than "frumpy" (I hate that word).

High heels are a old fashioned now, I think.

I think a lot of it is attitude. Some of what CM is wearing in the first photo could look a bit unstylish, but she makes it work.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/29/caitlin-moran-reread-how-to-be-a-woman-marvel-what-i-got-wrong

@thedevilinablackdress

GAH! Agree with PPs who mentioned this being another way to do women down. What's the male equivalent of frumpy? "A bit badly dressed"? There's nothing quite so judgemental...no "How dare he not conform to at least a basic standard of attractiveness and style" Grrrr I love clothes but this makes me sad.

Agree with all of this. And apparently being older and having unstyled hair also constitute being frumpy

For me, frumpy would be clothes that are worn for comfort rather than how they look. Sensible clothes worn with no style or irony. Clothes that give you a shelf rather than great tits.
I will specifically add though: fitflops and chiffon scarves.

@managedmis many things I wear would be considered frumpy and I don't give a shit, but to include glasses in that list is quite odd.

What thedevilinablackdress said. I love clothes too and have strong ideas about what I do and don’t like...but some PPs here just seem to have jumped on a chance to be judgmental and basically unkind. Nothing like doing other women down. It makes me a bit sad.

I think it's about invisibility. Nothing to draw anyone's attention. Knee length dresses with leggings being a prime example. Sludgy muted colours whether they suit or not. Short greying hair with no discernible style. Basically safe

I've probably resorted to 'frumpy' in the past because I do like words and it's quite an expressive one, unlike say, 'unstylish' which is not only bloodless but also longer.

But it's one of those words we can never quite define, and that, I think, is the point. Because I believe the real purpose of the word is not to describe clothing but to scare women - particularly older women, as some posters on this thread have kindly demonstrated.

I think there has to be at least one aspect that’s groomed.

We just have to try a bit harder as we age. Same for men. Women claim they are invisible but so are many men past a certain age. We hold ‘silver foxes’ up on a pedestal but that’s because they are the exception, not the rule. Many, many men post 50 start to look the same. Gut hanging over their trousers, trainers, oversized top. Equally the women over 50 who complain that menopause has made them invisible. I see many of them about. They are not invisible to me but they look like they don’t give a shit anymore. I’m delighted if they genuinely don’t care but I suspect it’s more they've given up and I suspect in quiet times that actually feels quite crap.

Hemlines. The same skirt can look or great or frumpy on me and it's a matter of an inch. Covering up or wearing clothes that don't fit. The MN scarf (there, I've said it).

Sandals with tyre tread soles and thick straps. Beige windcheater jackets and toning jersey blouses with elastic waist trousers.

But ... these very things are the height of fashion right now. Exactly what any cutting edge, fairly new, designer-y website will show you.

Agree with thedevilinablackdress.
This thread is making me a bit cross.

It's not any thing or item. I tend to associate it with people who don't consider themselves being all that special so why bother pretending. It's not an expression of why bother and being a slob, there's a lot of politeness in it. Clothes are ironed, even things like jeans that most wouldn't, hair is brushed but it doesn't really suit the hair texture and cut, etc. To us outsiders (especially if you're over the age of roughly thirty and grew up with a lot of mainstream media) it reads as the before picture of a makeover. That's why we tend to be so harsh on it as we all like to believe we're just a good cut and colour, a trip to a John Lewis personal shopper and Bravissimo, and a colour consultation away from being a worthy person.

It's odd to be demonising someone for a lack of effort in the eyes of others when they seem to be generally unbothered. In the age we live in, many identities are rooted in our own perception of what is special about us when the reality is we're all very non-special, special. Those who embrace the frump are just a lot more honest about it than the rest of us and that is both confronting and radical, unintentionally, and it's why the fashion crowd suddenly adopt parts of it with a hint of irony to communicate they're in on the joke (though tbh in my opinion, joke's on them in the majority of cases).

Ahem, I look best in sludgy washed out colours, always have, they suit my colouring.
However, if you mean washed out fabrics, well, I like those too. I look awful in bright clothes.

Frumpy to me means pleated tweed skirts and flat lace up shoes, Hair set with rollers into a style like the Queen, cable knit cardigans and quilted jackets. All together. Also boot cut jeans with baggy arses and mum boots and layered hair that is not in any particular style. Make up is not an issue because some frumpy people wear it and still look frumpy.

@justanotherneighinparadise

I think there has to be at least one aspect that’s groomed.

We just have to try a bit harder as we age. Same for men. Women claim they are invisible but so are many men past a certain age. We hold ‘silver foxes’ up on a pedestal but that’s because they are the exception, not the rule. Many, many men post 50 start to look the same. Gut hanging over their trousers, trainers, oversized top. Equally the women over 50 who complain that menopause has made them invisible. I see many of them about. They are not invisible to me but they look like they don’t give a shit anymore. I’m delighted if they genuinely don’t care but I suspect it’s more they've given up and I suspect in quiet times that actually feels quite crap.

Who says we have to try a bit harder? What nonsense.

And as for deciding that women who look to you like they don't give a shit may have given up and feel crap....