➿ Fantastic Haircare: Making Sense and Science of the Curly Girl Method

[botemp]

Offshoot from the Fantastic Skincare threads to document the trials and tribulations in order to make sense and science of the curly girl method. We don't necessarily follow it to the letter and are even critical of it in places. Nor are we especially knowledgeable at this point but we're learning as we go. Feel free to join in (especially if you have superior knowledge) as we attempt to approach this with an interest in ingredients and try to not buy everything that promises us magical things…

Useful blogs:

Curly Cailín
Science-y Hair Blog

PS just reading about polyquats on the Science-y blog. I wonder if my hair benefits from them because as I've said before, I do get tangly. I need to reread it later and give it some further thought/cross reference with my products.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think what I call frizz is probably just static hair and that's why I like cationic conditioning agents (which is in the CR mask but also a huge part of the bounce curl clump cream and kinky curly knot today). At a guess, I'm thinking coarser and more dense hair has less static issues so these ingredients aren't that life changing unless you're also in the can't take too many heavy occlusives without weighing it down camp/struggle to absorb occlusives.

I would make a note of it, Pupsie, at some point I realised my best hair days were after clarifying (I'm a bit of a clarifying junkie as a result). Used to put it down to deep conditioning after but I think it's just the accumulation of buildup of (in my case polyquats and potentially cationic guars. I'm going to cut out the guars for now and then reintroduce at some point) that's responsible for not getting consistent results. Where CGM mostly talks about clarifying in response to occlusives there's no talk of cationic buildup. It's odd, most talk surrounding cationic ingredients and curly hair is from around 2009, it doesn't really get mentioned much after, especially not by the current crop of CG influencers when it's probably more abundant now in a lot of products than then. I did get the sense from my reading (ventured into the long hair forums too) that it's more an issue with 'smooth' hair and low porosity which is not a very large portion of mainstream CGM.

I'm going to order the shampoo,conditioner, LIC travel trio from Innersense (the Pure selection as that one is free of the things I'm now attempting to avoid and sounded best for my hair anyhow, although the word pure pissed me off, naturally) to get a 'free from polyquats' routine going as I still can't purchase the kinky curly knot today (approved under my new criteria) and I'm curious about their shampoo anyhow and my current one is running low. But, yes, the all Innersense gushing madness intervention probably necessary soon 😬

Does elasticity relate to the hair's level of moisture Quirky?

Your curls look good Pupsie. That is annoying re the hairfinity masque. Not very professional on their part.

I hope you enjoy the wedding Pupsie! Thanks for the SPF recommendation. I've still got loads of the apivita so not buying another one. I thought I had looked at a phyto one at some point and ruled it out... or maybe not....

Shame you didn't like the jessicurl Bo. I recall you saying before that you didn't get on with their cleanser. I've just started using the spiralicious gel instead of the deva curl one (after a month of exclusively using the DC which has protein and glycerin) and I much prefer the spiralicious. I think have medium porosity hair so better for polyquats? I don't tend to get tangly hair though. I think very strict CG method-ers avoid polyquats too?

I did used too much Giovanni LIC in my hair at weekend (don't normally use it and was not careful with amount either) and my hair felt so weighed down once dry (but the curls were lovely - spiralicious gel too).

bo, I think aveda do/did a black malva range for darker hair, whereas the blue malva is for blonder/silver hair (though, I've thrown the dregs of mine away as it's just too harsh, though I like the colour it gives). When I had mid brown hair, I used the Kevin Murphy Blonde Angel, which is a nice purple conditioner to stop the warm tones, so I suppose you could. I would think the worst would be it would make no difference to your hair. I know some people on silver forums use black shampoo, not sure which ones, but I can recommend a nice Grey Pepper shampoo by Jean Paul Myne .

SophieLion, I'm not sure, but the protein vs moisture video from Manes by Mell has a chart with porosity/elasticity and seems to recommend for mid porosity adding some protein products, but not all. Which is actually what I have already done.

Is the Apivita quite coloured? I looked at the ingredients with olive oil, jojoba oil and carrot extract and thought it sounded like lots of ingredients that might yellow my hair. I ended up with a cheapy Malibu scalp and hair protector spray as a stop gap, it's clear and I've used it before. I'm pretty sure it's not a broad spectrum but it might do when I'm out and about in UK sun for the moment.

Tried out the new protein and moisture treatment, not terrible results and it has a lovely minty smell which is refreshing after so much coconut but I think I preferred the cantu one as that seemed to have more protein than this which was pretty moisture heavy.
Also gave the gel another go this time I was so cautious I didn't use enough and got no cast at all. This really is a game of endless experiments

Thanks quirky but Aveda includes a lot of the ingredients I'm now going to avoid. I'll check the pepper shampoo as I can get a sample of that from the sample shop and I was looking at maybe ordering some other things but I'll see how I get on with the Innersense first.

It's interesting as I looked back at my worst product experiences (Kevin Murphy and Olaplex shampoo and conditioner both in a salon though I did end up buying the KM and then it progressively getting worse the longer I used it) and it's a horrible storm of polyquats and silicones, I'd assumed it was down to the silicones which is odd as my reaction to those isn't always that drastic.

On elasticity, I was going through the hair scienc-y blog and I read there elasticity is a marker of how hydrated hair is inside the shaft, so moisture in a sense but moisture isn't a helpful term IME as it means humectants to some, occlusives to other and confusingly both are important in managing this issue. It seem not unlike skin where humectants make skin appear full and bouncy. Part of that is the ability to trap water in hair (porosity) which you can attempt to correct with occlusives to seal it in but I'm wondering if there's more to it (thinking this is why rice water rinses are useful but there must be other ingredients/products that do the same?).

I've actually narrowed in on a really promising UV protecter for hair, bit useless for most on here as it's an own brand from a (as we call them here and in the countries next door) perfumery, Douglas. They're in quite a few countries and it does look like they're expanding their online store but it is still limited to specific countries. I need to go in store and have a sniff at it as it does have a berry fragrance but on paper it looks good with four broad spectrum UV filters although it has no SPF rating but those four and where they're positioned in the INCI should give good protection and is CGM friendly without being all oils. Another one to be used on wet hair, so not sure how useful it will be beyond beach/outdoorsy purposes. It was recommended by the blog attached to the CG sample shop so I'm hopeful.

Oh goodness something else to worry about now Quirky!! Am I going to end up with orange hair ?! I have no idea.... and actually I don't like using any suncream with beta carotene in because I think that makes me orange!!

After a break from the Skin+Me I've had another bash but tbh I think I'm going to give up and go back to either the 0.025% Dermatica or the Neostrata (Bo do you have an opinion on which is best?). Skin all flaky and dry/scaly/sore/cracked in places despite only using it twice a week and with a barrier around the mouth. I've gone from being pretty happy with my skin (considering I'm almost 51) to being a bit unhappy with it and I'm just not sure it's worth the pain long term. Life's too short and it was looking okay before. As Bo said, with Rosacea it's best to skip most actives and I do feel lucky that I have been able to use many (still not sure I have Rosacea). Also, I really miss my Vit C.

Annoyed I didn't pause the Skin+Me in time and I received another one yesterday. Happy to send it on to someone who could use it, but only if you've already tried/have been through their process etc. Let me know.

Instead of calling Sophie Sallie are you now just addressing an audience from a different thread on here Pupsie

I ended up buying a Cantu shampoo as there were no travel sizes with the cleansing ingredient I needed. I had looked it up ahead of time as a plan B but unfortunately only saw after using it the INCI is slightly different on the one I bought and it actually contains a polyquat 🤦

It's very low on the list so I don't think it's too much of an issue but it means I'm going to have to find another one, probably. Anyhow it did successfully remove a lot of the quat buildup but I had to use loads of shampoo (think Queen and her conditioner and then some) so my hair is a bit dry and I had to use the ecoslay gel as that's the only gel I still have/could use ATM (ordered the Innersense in a full size) but it's one I really struggle to scrunch out properly, especially around the roots and because it's so hard hold it tends to flatten roots too. Such a shame as it looked so promising when I had just carefully unwound a few, those were perfect frizz free spirala. With hindsight I probably could have skipped gel and gone in heavier with foam...

With the black top on you can see my crap washday. I've done some reading up on frizz types (which isn't very scientific but interesting nonetheless as there are different types with different solutions) I clearly have product incompatibility frizz here (alongside loss of definition from the buildup), it's never this height defying or at completely different directions. Question for those who have frizz throughout their curls so not just on the surface of hair, the suggestion was to avoid salts, my hair does like a bit of salt (texture and volume) but there's definitely a frizz tradeout, but it's manageable for me. Is it that much worse if you have frizz under and over your curls?

Today's results (white top), though far from perfect as clarifying really closely together and product issues has left me dry/dehyrated, at least I have my familiar curl pattern back and it's settling a lot better than previous washes. I'm hopeful for the future.

Much bouncer curls in the second photo, bo. I would imagine the Black Malva is pretty similar to the Blue Malva. It just is too harsh for me, I think it's got sulphates in iirc.

SophieLion, silver hair picks up colour like a sponge, so anything yellowy or orangey is a no. You might be fine with darker hair. I ended up with creamy yellow from a Shea Moisture Jamaican Black Castor Oil LIC last year, despite it saying it was colour safe and despite a grey/pewter haired blogger reviewing it.

,😱🙈 don't even know how that happened. I'll cut and paste onto the correct thread.

I thought frizz between hairs was often the result of a lack of protein, but maybe that's just true if present when the hair is wet. Was it frizzy between the hairs when wet Bo?

No, there's not really a thing such as protein deficiency, I think, as protein just makes up part of hair structure and using protein products is just a poly filler to repair wherever that structure is damaged but that washes away. In that context I think with protein deficiency it just means damaged hair. I'm not sure if that counts as frizz.

Frizz is, as I understand it, is solely a dehydration issue (it's skincare all over again, I don't have dry hair, I have dehydrated hair, I already sort of knew this but nice to have confirmed) and on a more science nerd level it's about how hydrogen bonds to the hair's own protein and distorts it (see pic with explanation, I'm still digesting it).

Thing is, I'm not finding much information on what you can do to help with dehydration. There's a lot of standard advice about sealing in with oils but that only works if you're also dry. Then there's Humectants plus sealing it in with lighter ingredients like film formers, cationic compounds, silicones, lower weight oils, etc.

The only lead I have is inositol (in rice rinces) as that hydrates and penetrates deeply but it can't be the only ingredient that does that.

Actually, damaged hair probably does count as frizz as it usually struggles to retain hydration.

If anyone tries innersense I'm interested in reviews! I like the look of the foam and the gel

Queen, I've only tried the innersense hydrating cream conditioner, which I like and when I've finished the travel size I will probably buy the larger version.

I really like the Innersense Gel Queen. I think I prefer it to the Giovanni LA Hold. Where it does give a hold it's quite firm (I still need to work on my application). I have been using the Innersense one for my last few washdays. I've used the LA Gel today and I prefer how the IS one feels during application too. Just felt noticeable today. Will see how hair looks later/tomorrow.

I really like the inner sense I create volume gel. I use it in the shower with dripping wet hair. I find the more water you add to it the better. Emulsify a small amount -50p size for me and glaze through hair. I then rake it through and use praying hands last. I let water drip over my hair while doing this . I then scrunch it - should be absolutely soaking at this stage. After this I micro plop ,clip and diffuse.
A chopstick is very useful for shifting curls into their proper place and lifting hair gently at roots for volume.
I find the inner sense gives lovely shine and hold.

Oh that's funny Queen, I just came on to ask if someone has used the innersense foam! I think Bo has tried it.

Has anyone used the bounce curl clump and something cream? My products are getting low and thinking of an order. I might try some treluxe products too. They have a protein based conditioner which can be used as a wash out conditioner and a LIC. Want orange marmalade but seems to be sold out everywhere.

You've got very science-y Bo. On one hand I think that's great and probably what i need to do to find out what suits. On the other hand, the thought of doing that level of research is daunting - right now I'm keeping track of what I do every wash day (which at the mo is more or less the same but different techniques) and taking photos and I find that time consuming enough.

I also dry plopped yesterday for the first time and found it cut down diffusing time By quite a bit. Much preferred it or the soggy mess of wet plopping which I tried once.

Yes, Sophie, I use the bounce curl clump cream and I really really like it, I was very lyrical about it on here from first try. You only use very little, regardless of how much hair you have. I'm still on my sample and have been using it for almost all wash days and I probably still have enough for a month or so. I sometimes use it in place of LIC.

Also love the Innersense foam, I also appreciate a little goes a long way. I've been using this a lot too and have the travel size but it's only about a 1/4 used up, in contrast the Aveda foam I had a travel size of was used up in about 3/4 washes. I only have the Aveda to compare it too but I appreciate how weightless and not there it is, and is able to give lift at roots and tame flyaway/surface frizz.

I like pretty much anything I've used from Innersense but the gel and foam are standouts for me. The gel I like because it holds the curl pattern like a hard hold gel but it isn't stiff/crunchy and therefore it can move without getting wound up in itself.

Skinful I'm slightly confused as the I Create Volume is a lotion (so I've always used it with gel/foam on top) but are you using it like a single styler? Or are you using the I Create Hold gel?

I'm a regular dry plopper but I think I need to stop doing it. I've noticed the hair loss has become less but it's still happening and I think piling up my hair on my scalp under occlusion with products causing build-up (polyquats bond to skin as well) probably wasn't helping.

Thanks Bo. I had just changed my mind re buying the clump** Cream as concerned it might be too heavy for my hair.

I was watching a bounce curl review and the girl was raving about most products and the clump cream she was luke-warm about. She did say only a tiny amount. Have you found your curls to be weighed down?

Am also considering the innersense foam and gel. What would you say are the differences between the innersense foam and the clump cream in terms of results? I'm not sure I want to buy both But I do want a curl definer/styler to use before gel and not blown away so far by rockin ringlets (will take on holiday with me now and try again though). Am I right that the foam and the clump cream are both In the defined category of products?

Thanks for the innersense gel info Skinful.

I am also interested in the bounce curl one (Britt curls was raving about it) but she also mentioned flash drying can occur. Does that happen with the innersense one?

Anyone tried the bounce curl hairspray?

No, the clump cream is strange, it's not heavy in the traditional sense but it's very concentrated (I dip a finger in shallowly and move up so it's like a pea sized amount, if that) and it feels heavy when applying as it just instantly seals in all water (I use it on dripping wet) but it's not heavy in the hair if that makes sense. It doesn't weigh my hair down, in combination with their gel (didn't work for me due to the large size proteins that added frizz for my low porosity hair but you might not have that issue) I had really bouncy springy curls that were not weighed down at all.

It's a light gel though with a soft hold (Innersense is hard), if I were a regular user (eg. had I bought a full size rather than a sample), I'd happily use it up but probably mix it with another gel (it worked well in my 3 gel method experiment) or layer the Innersense foam over it, or both.

I've not noticed flash drying with Bounce Curl or Innersense but I've heard it about BC and the key to avoiding that was to use it on soaking wet hair IIRC and the clump cream probably protects from flash drying as it seals in all that surface moisture that would otherwise rapidly evaporate, potentially? I do get the sense BC works as a series of products, and Innersense too both in a protein/moisture balance but where Innersense spreads it out, BC concentrates the different parts in different products (clump cream protein free, gel very protein heavy). I do find the two brands work well together. The hair spray is not CGM I believe, alcohol or something else in there and it's quite drying.

Thanks Bo. Yes this girl did say if you layer something underneath the bounce curl gel then that can stop flash drying and also to spray more water so your hair is soaking wet. Curly Cailin also seemed to say that she could only get the BC gel to work with the clump cream.

Britt curls made an interesting point id not considered that the BC gel being so light weight always the curls to spring up more as they dry as strong casts can weigh them down.

I'm pretty sure the BC hairspray is CG friendly. Haven't looked at ingredients myself but the review specifically mentioned it didn't contain drying alcohols etc.

If you could choose between the clump cream and the foam, which would you get? Or both?!

I think I'm tempted more by the innersense gel than the bounce curl one

bo I use the I create volume as a single styler.