Can a feminist use botox

[LunaTheCat]

Ok, mid 50’s. Lifetime non smoker and high SPF sunscreen user (proper sunscreen, not added to moisturiser) . I have always been anti Botox. Want to age naturally, deplore the pressire on women to look a certain way. Think that women having Botox in their 20’s and early 30’s terrible insight endoghtment on how women are viewed in society BUT for the last 6 months seriously tempted. ... help ! Stay strong or give in? (Maybe this should be on feminism board) would love to hear from other women in my age group .

Count I don't shave, paint my nails or dye my hair 😳 painting your nails isn't a gateway drug to botox 😉

I agree with Floisme. It’s not a feminist choice to have botox, and I think it’s disingenuous to try and rationalise that away. I don’t agree with the liberal feminist view that my money + my choice = everything I choose to do with my money is an expression of feminism.
But it’s also human and normal to make knowingly crap choices sometimes and I’ve got better things to do than lecture other feminists. I believe quite strongly that one of our biggest challenges as women is the way we get so easily distracted by fighting among ourselves and trying to force all women to think the same and act the same. We need to waste less energy on that and turn our attention outwards.

at this stage of my life that money would probably be best used for experiences - holidays and time with my lovely husband!

This is exactly my way of thinking. I am in my 50s with a professional job and a husband who adores how I look. So I would be spraffing money on a dodgy industry that has grown out of stoking female insecurity, rather than using it to enhance my life experience during my brief sojourn on this earth. I would rather use the money to grow my mind than freeze my forehead.

I consider myself radfem by way of thought. I am also a complex character who has hated my looks since I first became aware of them.

Time - and 30 years of smoking natch - took its toll on my face and I now have Botox and fillers. Not entirely sure I look fake 'n' plastic - but then I'm not prone to showing emotion anyway .

Otoh I only shaved my legs and pits this week because I took the kids swimming...

I don't have the courage to be vocal about feminism in the way Posie Parker and many other public speakers are - but if Posie can rock scarlet lips and peroxide locks - I'll allow myself to look in the mirror and like what I see.

It's totally understandable that most of us feel the desire to tweak our looks according to what society sees as acceptable or desirable. We are only human and can't avoid being products of the world we grew up in. But it's good to push back at those expectations in ways we can cope with.

Hopefully future generations of women will continue to push back at them. I'm kind of impressed that nearly 14 yo dd refuses to shave legs or armpits, even when wearing shorts, vest tops etc. I can't quite bring myself to do that.

Botox is something which can be used in far more ways than softening a frown.
I have it injected into the sides of my jaw to lessen bruxism, so teeth grinding, which had built up my jaw muscles so much that my face shape had turned from oval to rectangular. Thought that was just an ageing thing, but it was spotted by my doctor and we decided to try it. The number of tension headaches has reduced and I sleep better because of reduced bruxism.
Now the bruxism does have several causes, for one I have a very short jaw, but it is also due to stress. My husband has been very sick, my work is full on and I also have just completed my MSc thesis. Botox means that I don't carry the temporary negatives on my face forever. The smile lines are there, so is the mobility, but not the sadness.
It has been the right choice for me so far, it might not be for others. And that's ok.

Christ yes. No one has a home they don’t do up

I'm puzzled by the oft-cited justification that people say they have botox to avoid looking grumpy/mean/angry. I don't think I've ever seen anyone look like that unless they ARE in a grumpy/mean/angry mood, and if so, why shouldn't you look like you are in said mood? Isn't it called facial expression?
The worst (most un-feminist) phrase in this regard is "resting bitch face". It seems ridiculous to insult a normal face in repose in such a hideous way. I realise people normally say this about themselves (as justification for treatments) rather than others, but it makes me sad to hear it (and then presumably my face also looks sad )

Christ yes. No one has a home they don’t do up

But if they have say a nice old Georgian house they appreciate its wonky bits and imperfections, they don't try to turn it into a new build

This is the sort of thing that puts women off feminism. Policing if women can wear makeup/heals/use botox and still be a feminist. Very sad.

Oh don't be silly. Giving an opinion is not policing and the op asked.

I'm a radfem, and I get Botox. Considering fillers for my thin lips. Anyone telling me I shouldn't "because bad feminist" can "get tae feck" (as a friendly feminist suggested and I've unashamedly pinched).

It's my body, I'll do what I want with it. I'm not being exploited or oppressed, I just want to look less like a knackered old hag at work.

Nobody's policing anything, the OP wanted to debate the issue that's all.
FWIW I don't see heels or makeup as remotely similar to botox. I wouldn't inject something (toxin) in my head mostly because I'd be worried it'd go wrong or be unsafe. But the fact is, the more it becomes the norm, the more all women feel peer pressure and get judged for not doing it. I have actually been told I 'should' have botox

I just want to look less like a knackered old hag at work. but do you feel you'd be under the same obligation to look less knackered at work if you were a man Havelock and do you think you'd get botox if you were a man?

TheToffeeTruckinTown you're probably right, and the patriarchy has done a number on me, but my desire to fight back comes second to my vanity. Ok, I'm a flawed person, but I really like looking and feeling attractive and confident.

I know my love for high heels is driven by patriarchal bullshit but that doesn't mean I don't bloody love them, and I'm just not prepared to go about with no make up, heels, tailored dresses (less practical than trousers) etc. to show I'm not influenced by society. I am, I can't help it. Looking good (to me) is really important to me. I had anorexia when I was younger, and I'm sure some of it was driven by patriarchal standards of beauty , but I didn't do it on purpose.

Feminists can make non feminist choices. They are still feminists!

I haven t actually read the thread-has anyone talked about “putting women off feminism” yet?

I don’t think it’s feminist to have botox - it’s the result of the low value our society puts on ageing women. I’m not a perfect feminist and I shave my legs and wear make-up, but I don’t kid myself either that I’m making those choices in a vacuum. The very fact that I only bother to shave my legs in summer when wearing a skirt reflects that I wouldn’t bother to do it ‘for me’.

Oh yes

Soz that was to Bert

I like heels, dresses, makeup etc too Havelock so I suppose what you're saying is it feels like as much of a choice as those things, which I get totally.
Maybe me thinking other peoples botox makes me feel more pressured to get it is only the same as, say, I shave my legs so women who don't want to might feel like that means they face pressure to. All part of a continuum perhaps.
Botox feels different because it's so expensive and has some real risks, plus I worry that it's covering up true expression, so that if women are pissed off they should be allowed to look it. But I can see both sides of the argument.
I think as someone who hasn't had it though, it feels harder and harder being the only haggard looking one in the room

it’s the result of the low value our society puts on ageing women
so true

Someone who purports to respect women should respect the choices they make whatever they are.

Can a feminist use Botox? Yes.
Is using Botox a feminist thing to do? No.

You can be fully aware of the pressures on women to look young and how damaging they are and yet still decide that for you personally, the benefits of Botox outweigh adhering to a feminist principle. No judgement there. We all make our compromises and feminism doesn't demand ideological purity.

What you can't do is say that getting Botox is a feminist thing to do, or that anything a woman does is feminist because she's choosing to do it. That comes from the more nonsensical wing of the third wave, I think.

Respect the choices they make whatever they are
Really? If I chose to bind my feet or chop my ears off you’d respect my choices? What about if I decided to bind my baby daughter’s feet?

What Clara said.