Can we declare a ban on the term "Mutton Dressed as Lamb"?

[Ujjayi]

In light of recent threads, I'd like to instigate a ban on this term. It implies that women have a "sell by date" and is just very derogatory.

If there is an item of clothing that looks ridiculous on ALL women over 40, it's pretty likely that it looks ridiculous on 20 year olds as well - we are just more accepting of 20 year olds wearing ridiculous things.

If you wore something "the first time around" and it was a stupid "trend" item then hopefully you are too wise now to wear it.

If you wore something "the first time around" and it suits you now - you should wear it and ignore the naysayers.

It was just a stab in the dark, Remus and I really hope it is silly because it would be pretty depressing if it were true. But I really struggle to understand why some posters (and I don't just mean on this thread - this topic comes up all the time) get so queasy at the idea of 40+ women with good bodies wearing short/tight clothing.

I guess it's down to how it's done. Yesterday I wore a very short skirt, but with opaques, a turtle neck and flat ankle boots. There was nothing remotely slutty about it, the only flesh on view was my face and my hands but you're right, some people on MN would think it was not age appropriate and that I should have been wearing a Boden dress and court shoes.

And Trills - good post. You have said in just a few sentences what I have been trying to say for pages! :)

I am 59 years old and I am old enough not to give a fuck if I look 'ridiculous' in what i choose to wear. I hate 'mutton' and all those things that are so ageist and designed to keep women in their box

I haven't RTFT, it it banned yet? Fucking hope so, horribly offensive phrase.

Trills and Remus I thank you x

Would the male equivalent be 'oldest swinger in town'

I do use that phrase but only in reference to myself and what I look like in a particular item of clothing. Wouldn't dream of using it to describe someone else's clothing choice.

Nothing wrong in anyone, any age wearing what they like but obviously it's advantageous if it actually suits them.

I find the use of "whores" and "slutty" on this thread v offensive.

The discussion shouldn't be around what "mutton dressed as lamb" is, but why it's bad as a phrase. I think some people on this thread have missed the point and need to do some reading in the FWR forum

Basically, hear hear Ujjayi.

I think you're right trills. A teenager can get away with cheep silly faddish clothes. At my age I like to think I have more sense, more money and more knowledge of what suits me. I really did wear some silly looking things when I was young but I was still experimenting.

Taking offence in the expression assumes that lamb is somehow better than mutton. I'm happy to be mutton. I'm happy to dress as mutton. Mutton has more class. I don't want to dress as lamb.

As a teenager I wore mostly jeans and tops. When I'm not at work that's what I wear now I'm in my 40s. My figure hasn't changed that much, and until fairly recently I could still fit dresses I wore at 18. My teenager dd often borrows my clothes, and now she's got a little bigger (we are in the same clothes size) I'll probably nick her stuff too. We often shop at the same shops. I don't go in for structured 'older' stuff except when I have to for work or formal occasions and she doesn't go in for fashion much, being fairly geeky/nerdy.

It's a bit daft to suggest that mutton is valued as much as lamb, mutton has virtually disappeared because of the preference for lamb! In the days when it was widely sold it was much cheaper. Plus we all know that youth is valued in women, older women in image obsessed industries struggle - a good example is the movie industry where older women hardly exist.

I still don't see why older women shouldn't experiment with fashion and try out silly, faddish clothes sometimes. If we get it wrong, so what - no-one dies. Fashion is supposed to be fun.

Umm Blair - I know plenty about feminism thanks. I used the word 'slutty and tarty' as examples of other horrible words that are used about women whatever their age.

I was trying to say that it isn't just older women who are criticised about what they wear. Clearly I failed to make that point though.

But then I am someone who does want to dress in an age appropriate way. Not in a boden dress and courts but still I don't wear clothes in the same way that I did when I was 20. But other people can wear whatever they like.

'1664' is worse. Can both be banned if one is?

It's not just older women who are criticised, that's true. But I think it's only older women who are repeatedly told on S&B that their clothes are unsuitable, not because they are unflattering or wrong for the occasion but purely (it seems to me) because of the woman's age.

In fact could someone please explain what they mean by 'age appropriate' - and by that I mean how it is different from 'body appropriate' or 'occasion appropriate'.

Well when I was 20 I would wear a denim mini skirt with bare legs and a vest top to go shopping. I wouldn't do that now as feel it wouldn't look great and I'd feel uncomfortable.

I would wear it round my garden though.

It is just one thing I consider when I get dressed and to be honest I'm more worried about if I look fat than if I look age appropriate - but that's a whole other can of worms.

I think Remus explained it well when she described how she wore a mini skrit - that sounded a great look to me.

But thinking about it I probably wear lots of stuff that others would think is inappropriate - eg white skinnies, leather leggings, leopard print etc. Not necessarily all at the same time though

I understand not wearing stuff because it don't look good any more. My body has changed a lot since I was 20 so there are loads of things I wouldn't wear now. But that's because they don't suit me any more. I'm asking why clothes that look good are still deemed unsuitable purely because of your age. As you say, you would get canned on another thread for wearing leather leggings and leopard print even though it probably looks great!

I forgot - I'd also like to ask why people don't just say 'that doesn't suit you any more', if that is all they are trying to convey? Why use a phrase that compares a woman to a piece of meat?

I agree, Flo - what is age-appropriate? And who says so?!

It seems to me it's just a subtler way of telling older women not to wear certain things because they are too old for it.

It seems like that to me too, BIWI but I'm happy to be told if I've got it wrong!

Anyone?

I don't think anyone needs to be told full stop. Most people have an internal hunch as we change as to what we feel good in and telling others how to look when they may be perfectly happy as they are is high handed! There is a difference if someone asks otherwise best to live and let live.

MrsCB I wasn't referring to you at all, sorry it wasn't clear. I totally agree with the context you used those words in.

On a lighter note: allow me to share with you a few highlights from my new House of Bruar catalogue, delvered this morning:
This? www.houseofbruar.com/house-of-bruar-ladies-tweed-beret-prodte03195/

Or this? www.houseofbruar.com/house-of-bruar-ladies-silk-cashmere-double-breasted-rib-cardigan-prodtt99257/

I just can't decide: www.houseofbruar.com/house-of-bruar-ladies-lambswool-angora-split-collar-slipover-prodtt99303/

Please tell me if any of this is age appropriate enough for you all

Nearly 50 - what wouldn't I wear that I have in the past? Let's see...

hair in bunches
dungarees
glittery eyeshadow (oops!)

that's about it, really. I still wear crop tops and vest tops in summer, although a few lbs off and a bit more swimming/gardening will improve the look. Never worn mini skirts as they've never suited me - but if they did, I would.

half-mast trousers, thongs showing, fugly high heels and so on look awful on any age.

oh, and I'm growing my hair too. So there.

Yes, body-appropriate a much better guideline than age-appropriate, I think.

I used the word 'slutty' to quickly try to convey why a short skirt isn't necessarily 'mutton.' Both are examples of provocative labeling, of course they are, but I was trying to make a point that even younger women can look inappropriate, and to me, the phrase, 'Mutton dressed as lamb' often seems to imply that the lamb is provocatively dressed. I didn't mean to cause offence, but I honestly don't think I have missed the point of the thread - I think I am engaging in what has been an interesting discussion. "Slutty" gives an instant image of a certain kind of dress - I wasn't calling anybody either a whore or a slut, therefore stand by my point.