Can we declare a ban on the term "Mutton Dressed as Lamb"?

[Ujjayi]

In light of recent threads, I'd like to instigate a ban on this term. It implies that women have a "sell by date" and is just very derogatory.

I remember a thread about this a couple of months ago where Carol Vordermann was criticised for dressing the way she does. Someone said she looks like the type to get drunk on rose, start crying, and try to sleep with your husband. Not being from the UK, I wasn't sure who she was and I Googled to see what this ghastly creature might look like. All I found was a very attractive woman with a great figure who dressed in a way to flatter her assets. Her critics came off as bitchy and insecure.

When I said I won't wear a trend the second time around, I was talking about entire trend looks. If the waif look comes back, I am not going to wear a slip, a flannel shirt, and doc martins. I do wear docs now, though. I do feel that I would look silly as a waif or a "riot grrl" etc. I would have the same reaction to giant brightly coloured jumpers with shoulder pads. I wore those as a teen.

It's an appalling phrase. I hate it.

Just read your link Noelle. EH???? Love the buying shoes is a feminist action. And the weight thing. Hilarious.

I don't like the phrase if used in a disparaging way against other people but I do mentally use it for myself when trying stuff on and will ask friends if they think something is a bit too mutton for me to wear.

But I also look at some men and think they could dress more age appropriately.

I suspect on here we just use it in a self critical way rather than to be mean about what other women wear. Well I'd hope so anyway.

I believe it was Bonsoir who said ages ago 'better mutton than mumsy' and I rather liked that

However that will probably offend some people too. It is a minefield.

I was listening to a programme on Radio 4 the other day about mutton. Very interesting too.

The thing is a lot of people come on here to get an opinion on age/shape appropriate clothing and how to look current without being a fashion victim and everyone on here pretty much makes judgements around these ideas.

Seriously,if you were out and saw a woman in her forties walking around with a mini skirt up her arse/six inch heels/skintight jeans/crop top/arse crack hanging out of her jeans etc most of you if you are being honest would judge.

Mutton dressed as lamb says to me that someone isn't dressed in age/body shape/occasion appropriate clothing. It a phase that describes an overtly sexual way of dressing which reeks of desperation for attention.

I think if you are aware that is the message you are putting out there and don't give a stuff then fine, but for others that don't want to be perceived as such it's a helpful phase. I don't think it's offensive at all.

Talking about men who should dress more age appropriately, there are 3 60+ men who go to the same pub as us and we call them Busted as they dress just like them. Tbh it was never a good look on Busted in the first place so it does look a bit odd on the more mature gent. They do have age appropriate music taste as they always put Elvis on the jukebox!

If I see a 40+ woman who still has the legs and body for short skirts/tight jeans/crop tops, I think 'good for her'. (But not arse cracks - minging whatever you age or body.)

Women of all ages sometimes dress in a sexually overt, attention seeking manner yet we only have a phrase for older women who do it. Why is that?

But short skirts don't have to look sleazy. Arse crack on show is always awful, whatever the age or size of the crack.

I think the reason there's no male equivalent of the phrase I'd that you rarely see a middle aged (or older) man wearing clothes the same clothes as teenagers.
Poor Louis Walsh looks so uncomfortable and sometimes a bit ridiculous when they try to make him trendy.

It's more common ime to hear women say their husbands clothes are too conservative or too old fashioned and they dress like their Dad.

lurkers

its funny, isnt it?

I would have associated the saying specifically with age. It's more being overdressed / masquerading as something it's not. Which isn't any more complimentary and can indeed mean dressing in too young a style but it's not limited to that

Ah. So older women aren't supposed to dress in a sexually attractive way then? Why not?

I think women of any age who dress in a very sexually attractive/provocative way tend to get negative comments from people.

With 'older' women they're called mutton but with younger women they're called tarty/slutty.

Agree that 'mutton' implies utter unattractiveness.

'Swan dressed as cygnet' I could live with .

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'sexually attractive'!

Well indeed. I mean Emmanuelle Alt dresses in a subtle sexy way and I don't think anyone would call her mutton.

However, if it is all on display, so boobs out, legs out etc - then I guess that's what people mean by mutton.

Ultimately anyone can wear what they want but for a lot of women they don't want to look mutton and so come on here and use the word as a shortcut for 'is this stylish and age appropriate'.

Poor Ujayi wants to ban the word and I've now used in more on this thread than I probably have in a year

Is it that we just don't like the idea of older women having sex, let alone - heaven forbid - seeking it out? I'd kind of hoped we were a bit more evolved than that but maybe not.

The phrase could refer to men or women, mutton or lamb could be a male of female animal (?)

however I don't imagine it is often if at all used for men, and (afaik) mutton is a meat seen as inferior to lamb so the woman is trying to pass herself off as having more 'value' than she really does.
The implication is that women lose value as they get older.

it should be possible to say that you feel a person is dressing in a style that doesnt flatter them without also suggesting that they are worth less now that they are older.

In the interests of trying to even up the score there must be some derisive labels used against men who are trying and failing to appear younger and/or more virile than they are?

Personally I think men's attractiveness is just as likley to wane with age as that of women

But who is saying they don't like the thought of older women having sex? I'm in my early 40's and find that I am more self confident and at ease in my own skin. I don't wear the kinds of clothes that I wore in my 20's I'm definitely more conservative but sex appeal can be subtle rather than brash and in your face.

It doesn't even make sense though. The phrase is essentially about pretending to look younger than you are, with the implication that only young women can 'dress as lamb' and the older woman should look their age - mutton.

But people in this thread have also used it to talk about avoiding looking like mutton, when really they want to avoid looking like lamb knowing that they are more mutton like (assuming they are older, I don't think people nearly so often judge younger people for looking older than they are, although obviously that happens too - women, judge and be judged!).

Men who dress like teenagers are I think just described as ridiculous.

That's silly, Flo. None of this is anything to do with women's sexual desires. Full on slutty looks awful at any age, and is a different thing than women being sexually desirable/desiring sex.

If a stunningly well dressed older woman swaps clothes with her grand daughter they'll both look awful. It's nothing to do with one having more value than the other or one being more attractive than the other. It's about wearing what suits you. What suits you usually changes over time.

I bet that most people on this thread dress as well as or better than they did when they were younger and probably with more confidence about choosing clothes that suit them rather than necessarily following fashion.
I do.
That probably didn't happen in the past as much.

I think it sounds bitchy and outdated nowadays.

I think dressing for the occasion is more pertinent.
E.g you may not wear the exact same clothes for a job interview that you might go on a night out in.
That's not an age thing.

The phrase is objectionable because it likens women to meat, which is offensive. It also implies an overvaluing of youth over other qualities a woman may have.