CSA assessments and the 2nd family

[kittykat77]

This is my first time posting in this section, but we are at a bit of a loss on what to do now.

Brief history - DH has 1 child with ex, separated 7 yrs ago (before we got together!). Since then DH has always paid his way, and paid way over the top when they got divorced to keep ex happy, so she could keep the house ect.

We have had 2 kids of our own since, and have been paying £200 for the last couple of years. SHe has now gone to CSA, and looking at their website, payments could be as much as £275 per month, based on DH's earnings. We have high living costs,high costs when he does see his son(which is not often due to big problems with access) and also debts which were due to his ex when they split up.

Basically we can only just survive at the moment,and if the CSA demand more money it could mean that we will lose our home. Does anybody have any experience of how sympathetic the CSA are to the 2nd family in cases like these and whether they are likely to take into account our full financial situation, and also the needs of our 2 new children?

Little Bella,

I understand that your situation is the other side to the story.

However in DH's case his ex was the one who did the dirty on him. He basically lost his home, ended up paying a huge amount to get himself off the mortgage (when the house in question was in quite a lot of equity). Ex has since sold the house and pocketed all the equity.

THere is no doubt in my mind that DH has more than paid his way and more financially. In fact I think that most Ex's would be glad of the kind of financial support his ex has received over the years.

Basically I think this CSA application is all out of spite over an incident that happened in the last couple of months (not going into details).

Ivy, I have heard that the CSA admin is a disaster area, and for this reason we will be requesting to make the payments to them. Maybe this will make the Ex realise that the payments she has had over the last 7 years have never ever been late, and this was a much better way to do it.

Ihate the CSA! You sound like you were in a similar position to us. You are right, not everybody will agree with this point of view, but as the current CSA stands the kids of the 2nd family are considered 2nd class to the split kids as far as I can see. DH gets an allowance of £70 per month for both of them. So when DSS is getting £300, how can this be right?

I don't see how anyone can blame you for playing a system when it is so blatently unfair. As I said, maybe if it was fairer then it wouldn't be necessary to manipulate it. When it comes to your own kids being made homeless, what other option have you got?

Bella I've had another name change!!!

HOW DARE I!

CSA is complelty unfair. My dd's CTC are taken into consideration as income when working out maintence, how is that fair?

My dsd is entitled to 15% of my dh wages but our second child is only entitled to 5%. how is that fair?

When the system is fair I will play fair and the reason I name changed is because people like you always think the man is in the wrong and the mother is always 'justified'.

Yes she shot herself in the foot. She was recieving substanial regular payments. She choose to use a system which is both unfair and full of errors and mistakes and it backfired on her.

And KityKat is right. Its my children that are second class as far as the CSA are concerned.

Whatever your name is, no-one is saying it's fair. Just that your response to it, is not fair either. "She shot herself in the foot" makes her responsible for your behaviour. She's not. She's responsible for her's. You're responsible for your's. Stop blaming her for what you are doing. If you believe what you are doing is morally right, then take responsibility for it.

The fact is, a third of children in this country live in poverty, but 50% of children of lone parents do, even though only 25% of all children live in one parent households. If you look at the children of second families, you will find that they are not heavily over-represented in the poverty figures as those of lone parents are. In spite of the evil CSA.

Oh and what the hell do you know about "people like me" (what is that supposed to mean, pray) and what I "always" think? I'm astonished you know so much about me, I don't know anything about "people like you" and what you always think.

btw I'm not arguing that the CSA is fair or just. But then, I don't expect a government office to be fair or just tbh.

She went to the CSA. The consequences are that we now pay less to her and as a result we can now pay moer into dsd's bank account. If she hadnt gone to the CSA then she would recieve more money in her hand each month. So in my eyes she shot herself in the foot. She should have left things as they were.

What I am doing is morally right. I am a mother fighting to protect my children and provide a home for them (and I include my dsd in that statement)

Mothers shouldnt be able to use the CSA as a stick to beat their ex's with.

Little bella,

Just for the record, Dh's ex is now married. So DSS is not living in a lone parent household. In fact their household income is probably very similar to ours. Only we have to pay out £300 and still support our own family.

Maybe the CSA needs to distinguish between single parents, and those who are co-habiting (i've a feeling the old CSA system used to do this).

They certainly need to take more account of if my DH only has himself to support, or like in our case he has 2 other children and a wife to support (I do work but only earn a very small amount after paying for childcare). I think the difference of £70 the CSA are allowing for this is my biggest problem with this system.

I realise there are probably lots of dads who don't pay anything. But it seems like the responsible ones who are paying already, and may have other families to support are the ones that are getting screwed the most. The ones that don't have any other responsibilies are the ones that can move round and avoid paying anything at all.

I don't know what the line is for 'child poverty' but I would be very interested in whether my children would fall into this after the increased payments we will have to make, and how this can be acceptable.Surely there should be a case for sitting down and looking through an individual case like this. A 'one formular fits all' cannot be right when there are 3 children involved here, and only one is actually being supported.

No the consequences were that you decided to cheat, so the payments were altered.

Which is fine, I look forward to seeing you on some of those ranting benefit-fraud threads, defending benefit fraudsters because the system is unfair.

Anyway, would love to continue this discussion with you but my battery is about to give out and I appear to have mislaid the cable to connect it up again . Oh well, I do have ironing to do I suppose. I'm frightfully bitter about it...

When we had dd, (3rd child together), the CSA adjusted -£2 for her birth. Even though our family is bigger than the one child he had with his ex, it seems as if dss proportion of the money here is more than our own dcs together. DH also has to travel 300 miles to see him, and we get no fuel help, and even have to pay when he is with us!

Some things are so wrong with the CSA, and thats what i feel it comes down to, not dss mum or anything.

kittykat, I have total sympathy with your situation. (only 9% battery left so can't say more)

Yes can totally agree with the ex's using the CSA to get back at their partners.

In fact, when we were previously in the CSA and the assessment went down, she totally stopped DH having any access to DSS. That was the whole reason why they did a private agreement before, as he offered to pay more that the CSA said so she would let him see DSS again.

Obviously that was before we had any other kids. Now obviously money is extremely tight, that is not an option. Looks like she is not even allowing DH even phone contact now.

The fact she can get away with all this, and she can even stop DH talking to DSS, and he still has to pay his £300 is totally out of order. Where is the support for the dads in return for them paying their money every month?

Yes they can go to court, but who has got money for that when every single penny and more is counted for included huge CSA payments?

Thats terrible

We had a private arrangement with dss mum - but she went to CSA when her and dh fell out, thinking she would get more from us. She ended up being £20 p/w worse off.

Scorpio, it is terrible. Now DH is facing the prospect of no contact with DSS until he is 18, and old enough to contact himself. However we still are legally made to pay this money.

I know they say finances and access are not linked, but what makes me really cross is that we have always bent over backwards to accomodate DH's ex's requests on everything.

And now he is basically being forced to choose between supporting the kids that live with him, and keeping up with the financial and emotional demands of the Ex.

It is always the 'bad dads' that get the publicity, I think more needs to be made of all the dads that pay their way, but are at the mercy of their Ex's. It seems like it is almost a crime to be the dad of a split up family, even if it is not their fault in the first place.

Jammi, there seem to be quite afew very unfair stories coming out here.

All I keep thinking is, if DH and I split, especially through no fault of his, how could i make his life so hard with regards to access of his kids. At the end of the day he is still their dad, and if he had treated me with the respect he has his ex (both financially and in the way he has dealt with things on a day to day basis) I would feel really bad if I completely stiffed him over, as she has done.

TBH the last month was the first time he has ever stood up to her, and it was to do with DSS welfare, and felt he had no choice. This is obviously the backlash for what he felt was doing the best for his son (hard to explain without going into details) What happened to the 'best interests of the child' in any of this? To loose contact with his dad cannot be good. But as you say teh current system only supports the resident parent.

Jammi, I think you are definately right here. There has to be some sort of common goal between the parents here - ie. the best thing for their own child involved.

I have to be honest, in all the time I have been with DH she has treated him like a piece of dirt, and it has quite upset me in the past that he has had to lie down and take it. The only reason he has stood up to her of late is because we have had our own children. You are right though, I suppose the one satisfaction in all of this is that at least we treat our own children in a manner that they can be well adusted adults.

I would be very surprised if DSS ever grows up to be like this. (As if having all this to deal with, DH and I have suspected for a long time he has SN, but Ex has always denied it. Very long and messy history here...) I just worry that the person affected the most is DSS. Which really isn't right, is it?

The CSA claim to be helping children get out of poverty but the reality is that the poorest children e.g those with a single parent living on benefits only get to keep a very small proportion of the maintinance paid (something like £10 a week I think.) The rest is kept by the government to pay back the benefits.

It is worth knowing that in some circumstances, eg when the resident parent claims benefits, they have no choice but give the other parents details to the CSA.
This is what happened in our situation. Due to a lot of lies on DPs ex's behalf, (not necessarily to get at us but to cover up the fact that she was cheeting the system) we ended up seeing DSCs a lot less. The CSA made a catalogue of errors including taking the money from DP and not giving it to his ex, then telling her that he hadn't paid it.

The CSA has caused huge problems for my DSCs who actually aren't short of money at all and never have been.

Luckily DP and his ex have finally started being able to communicate about these things and it does seem like we are all finally out of CSA hell. And it looks like we may be seeing more of DSCs in the future too!

DH has got back onto CSA and explained all the ways in which the assessment is based on income which is not even a true reflection of his actual monthly salary.

The CSA have agreed to reduce the payments by...a whole £1 per week. By our calculations it should be £20 per month less. And this is apart from the fact we can't even pay it anyway.

I have made an appointment with our MP, and will be taking all of these issues up with him at our meeting. The whole fundamentals of this system are morally wrong, and something needs to be done. Maybe if enough people make a fuss, and highlight the unfairness to the children in the 2nd family, they may do something about it eventually. I'm sure there must be a case for human rights somewhere here.

Anyway. Will let u know if we actually get anywhere. At least it makes me feel a little better.

Mummyno2, it's unfortunate that you have also experienced problems and ended up having to use the CSA when you didn't necessarily have to. I realise there are other problems with the CSA system, not just from our side of things. THe whole thing wants a good overhaul if you ask me.

Its good that you have spoken to your MP kittykat. I have heard of cases being turned on their head because of the MP stepping it - I think it does depend how pro active your MP is though so really get on to him kitty!

I wouldnt hold out much hope of the system being though. In 2013ish CMEC is being introduced, its the goverments third attempt at getting the CSA right but I it sounds just as bad, if not worse.

Hope everything goes well for you Kitty.

Sorry for the typos, just got in work and am very tired!

Good luck with your MP ktiiykat. Looks like we may be following the same route as you as after thinking it was sorted we had a letter this morning saying they are going to take 40% of DPs income anyway! Despite the fact that his ex sais that she doesn't want any of the arrears money and admits that he was paying during that period.

I would advise your DH to write to the CSA following his phone conversation and also email the same letter if possible, making it known that he will also be sending a copy to his local MP. It does sound like they've made mistakes here. I would also get him to sent a photocopy of as many payslips as he can find, maybe the last 6 months worth.

Please try not to get into so called 'csa arrears', as that's when they get really nasty. Get your DP to stop paying anything that he may already be directly to his ex, even if it is less thanand pay all money through the CSA keeping a note of when it was paid. If not they will claim that he wasn't paying at all during the period it takes to sort it all out.

Good luck!

All sounds interesting, but I am about to lose my home after a massive increase in CSA payments. They have gone up from £350 per month to just under £600. They actually took near to £1,000 this month in 'error' and I can't have a refund I'm told.

They say I owe over £7,000 in arrears that I am disputing and have requested my file from them which will take 40 days to arrive. I have copied in my MP but I don't seem to be getting anywhere. I have also complained about the attitude of the staff who telephone me as they are very aggressive and unprofessional. I have paid them for years and to date totalled over £21,000. They really don't care about anyone even to the extent of losing ones home and not being able to afford basics such as food. The system is rubbish I can fully understand why people take their own lives.

I've had enough of it all!!!

Just to add to this. DH was paying the CSA on a regular basis right up until DSD was 9. During this time all the money went to her mother and dsd saw none of it because she was living with her nan and grandad (her mum's parents) at the time. They got no money at all for her.

She moved in with us when she was 9, hence DH stopping payments. It was legal and above board, DH got a residency order for her and I claimed child benefits and tax credits for her. Yet for some reason the CSA still seemed to think DH should be paying maintence to his ex - even though he was now the resident parent. Took us over a year to finally get through to them, during that time they hounded us nad claimed DH owed them over £20,000. Funny as DH has never earned that much in his life. When we finally got them to believe us (funny how we were obviously lying even though we could prove she lived with us through court orders, child benefit and tax credit letters and even his ex telling them she didn't live with him anymore).

Complete bollocks the whole bloody system. And no we don't get a penny off his ex and haven't done in the 7 years DSD has lived with us.