Am I ruining DSD relationship with her mum?

[Primalicecream]

So, for background info- DH and I have been married for 6 years, together for 9 years.
I have 2 DS from my first marriage, both now in their early twenties and moved out of home. DH has 3 children from his first marriage - eldest DSS is now 19, middle DSD is 17, and DSD who is 16. DSC used to be with us every weekend and most of the school holidays due to mums work pattern. Middle DSS still more or less sticks to that pattern.

4 years ago eldest DSS moved in with us full time. We knew he and his mum had not been getting on and his mental health wasn’t great. Things came to a head, mum phoned DH to say he wasn’t welcome back after the weekend. That he was aggressive, angry and dangerous and she couldn’t cope. The thing is- he had never behaved like that with us. Other than the odd teenage mood, nothing that even fit with that description of his personality. At the time I thought, well, we don’t have to make him get out of bed for school, weekends and holidays are more chilled; Mum probably just needs a break and who can blame her!
So, we let him get settled into a new routine of being with us full time - but we both felt that he and mum should get some help to rebuild the relationship. DH got them both some support through DSS school. That seemed to work and DSS did agree to spend some time with his mum after around 6 months. That lasted for 2 weeks before he came back to ours, and he’s been with us ever since. I appreciate my relationship with him, as a step mum, is different, but I can honestly say he’s the kindest, sweetest, gentlest boy, I have never seen even a hint of the behaviours mum describes. On the other hand, what he describes is his mum saying awful things to him, being really unkind and nasty to him and about DH and I, and he admits that he did shout at her to stop when he couldn’t bear it anymore. Anyway.
Six months ago, my DSD told her DH and I she didn’t want to go back to mums after the weekend and that she also wanted to move in with us. Initially she said she would go back to mums every other weekend. Over Christmas, she was meant to spend 5 days with mum and younger DSS (17). She came back after 2 nights saying she just didn’t want to be there any more, not even weekends, because of how her mum speaks to her and how she makes her feel. She finds it hard to talk about what happened. All she keeps saying is that it’s better at our house, it’s calmer and kinder.
Their mum, however, is telling anyone who will listen that it is all my fault that first DSS and now DSD are living with us.
The thing is, because of what happened with eldest DSS neither DH or I feel it’s right to encourage DSD to keep going to stay with mum if she doesn’t want to. DH has started to talk more about what their marriage was like and it sounds…awful. And eldest DSS is really worried about his sister and says he thinks mum is treating her like she used to treat him.
So, I think I’m sharing this to ask- has anyone been through similar? Are we doing the right thing? My gut instinct is to believe her and tell her it’s her choice, that we love her and this is her home too. Or does their mum have a point, that lots of teenagers have rows with their mums and we are getting in the way of their relationship with mum? I don’t know what we should to do for the best!

The common denominator is the mother.. it's completely possible she is the problem. If it helps, detach and frame it that they are choosing to live with their dad not their mum, removing yourself from the equation.

Sounds like mum is projecting when describing DSS’s behaviour. Talk to the school again and ask for help so you have backup if needed.

Also watch for signs of parentification or isolation by youngest as mum is going to lay it on thick and play splitting games.

I think, just looking at the facts, she's raised 3dc up to 7, 10, and 12 with her husband. Then for the next 9 years doing all the donkey work, the school runs, the homework, the GCSEs, A levels, 3 X pe kits, uniforms, school bags, the drudgery on her own, while you and DH had the fun weekends where she got to treat herself by going to work.

She's probably completely burnt out. It must have been relentless.

Now one DC is left school, and been with you for 6mths, to say you've not seen the same struggles that she has for the past 9yrs, is comparing apples with pears.

Does she also hold animosity because DH left her for you?

I think you need to listen to DC and let them lead the direction they feel most comfortable with, but don't be misled at all that you wouldn't have had the same experience with them if you had been doing the hard work for the last 9yrs instead. They're rebelling against her because she's been the one holding it together through the difficult parts. You haven't had that because you didn't do that.

If your DSD wants to live with you, I think you need to welcome her, especially as your DSS is living there, but as with him you need to support the relationship with her mum. As a PP says, they're moving in with their Dad, and it's great that they have that option.

I don't think you're responsible for a breakdown in your DSCs relationships with their mum, or stopping them from moving back in with her - they're old enough to choose where they want to live.

To clarify. I have been with my DH for 9 years, yes- but no, he did not leave his wife for me. DH and I were both very much single when we met.
Actually, since you - sort of- asked 😆she met someone else when when my DSD was 1, told DH that this man was the love of her life, and their marriage was over. She Is no longer with the other man, that relationship ended after a year or so.

You wondered whether I understand how exhausted she might be. As a matter of fact, I had been a single mum to my two children for several years, hence me feeling some sympathy with the DSS situation initially because I know full well how exhausting it is doing everything on your own!
And yes, absolutely, the weekends with all 5 kids were fun - nothing fancy, just going to the park or baking cakes- but as you can imagine, they were also exhausting! And I’d then be back in to work full time Monday to Friday whereas the children’s mum was off work Monday- Thursday, having worked the weekend. Once the children got older, ( secondary school age) she changed working hours to weekdays, meaning she got weekends off- but did not want to change the pattern. Again, I never questioned that, just thinking, much as you’ve suggested; well, she is probably shattered and needs a bit of headspace to herself at the weekend. But I think the children might have enjoyed even the odd weekend with mum? If she’d agreed to it?

I think it’s not your decision. The children have a father and he needs to be the one dealing with this. Children of divorced parents are stuck in the middle. Yes, their DM might not win parent of the year, but its more than possible they're exaggerating what happens at hers because its more likely to influence their DFs decision to let them stay with him.
My friend had 3 children and one of them begged to live with his DF, not because he didn't like my friend his DM, but because his DF had a bigger house, more money and basically left him to it.

That’s a really helpful point: we are a bit bothered about youngest DSS and the impact all this is having on him. What kind of things should we maybe look out for?

I think the children are all of the age to choose where they want to spend their time. Realistically they’ll start enforcing what they want soon regardless of if you support them or not. The situation described by DSS sounds very sad and if he has been with you for quite some time now then it sounds like he has settled in without having difficult behaviour. I’d allow the children to choose for themselves where they want to live and what contact they want. Sod what anyone else thinks.

Only query I have is if their mums behaviour was so awful when your DH was with her, did he try to have more time with the kids? Was the concerned about their welfare with her earlier?

Yes, eldest DSS has been with us for 4 years, finished school with better grades than predicted and on to further study. Turning into a really lovely young man. But adamant he doesn’t want anything to do with his mum.
DH feels really guilty. His marriage to the children’s mum wasn’t easy, but he put it down to her grieving ( she lost a close friend in tragic circumstances shortly after they married) and he also tended to blame himself for annoying her or triggering her anger. Nevertheless, he was completely stunned when she told him she had met someone else. Hence being on his own for several years until we met. But he says he had no concerns about the children’s well being, in fact he always said she was a good mum, and refused to say anything negative about her.

DH however, is lovely and the kind of person who always sees the good in others….

I think the DC are now old enough to choose where they live. I'd encourage regular contact and Mothers day, birthday and Xmas gifts for her but really it is down to your DH to speak with his DC and sort out what they want. Is there enough room in your home for all 3 DC to move in? Because if you have 2 eldest there the younger DC will most likely want to move across to you too. It wouldn't be fair to have eldest 2 but then refuse the youngest because of lack of space. I bet Mum will feel upset too and I suppose it will affect how much child maintenance your DH will pay to her too.

You sound wonderful!!!

Clearly their dm has issues and I would guess the stress of life as a single mum has proplbabky escalated that.

Your dsc need you to have their backs. Yes it is normal to row with your parents as teenagers. But if you have genuinely never seen any sign of the aggressive behaviour their dm talks of then I would trust to what you see and know.

The only one damaging the relationship between dsd and her dm is the dm.

Keep doing what you are doing, but do keep a very close eye on the youngest. She may take it out on them.

I would ensure that school are aware of the issues so they can support and guide. They cam also look for any clues to issues with the youngest.

Good luck @Primalicecream you really are fab!!

Thank you- that sounds like a wise plan.
Space wise, we can make it work. Very lucky to be in a big enough house- it’s nothing fancy just an older house with a decent extension! and my two children aren’t bothered about me keeping their rooms for them or anything! Younger DSS says he is ok, he prefers being at mums because it’s a bit nearer school and friends. But he knows he is welcome here whenever. But it may change.
DH is going to leave maintenance as it is for now and have a chat in February if things haven’t changed. Added complexity is that the kids mum actually earns about the same as him now - and I don’t earn a lot ( I work full time in a job I love but the pay is terrible. But that’s another story 😂). DH is going to get some advice about how to find a fair solution going forward.

I tho k you need to encourage contact with mum. Not necessarily overnights but they need to maintain a relationship with contact. What that looks like I would let step kids lead. Lunch every fortnight if that's all they want.

They are more than old enough to have their views taken I to account.

My kids are court ordered to see their dad and very clearly will say they prefer to be with me. To want to be with dad o we mum who is resident parent says a lot imo and I think that should be listened to. I had a mother like your dss described and I have issues still because of it my parents were still together so there wa s no escape. I ended up spending as much time around friends houses as I possibly could, got a job etc etc. If you want to be away from home you find ways to do it and spending time at dads is much safer than hanging out at the park or in the woods with questionable characters

This is also something to be very wary of.

Our eldest (prodigal first grandson) asked to live with Nanny and Grandad, who spoil him absolutely rotten and he has a bedroom suite, walk in playroom, large ensuite bathroom, like little Lord Fauntleroy over there. They also let him get away with murder. It's not a real stretch of the imagination to work out why he fancies a cooked breakfast with Nanny every morning and then lazing in his "west wing" to our house, and it's not because we are evil parents. This is probably a more extreme example, but I think people forget how fickle some children can be.

I really appreciate all of your replies. PurpleBugz, I think what you describe is my worry- at least if they are here, we know where they are.
I’m not sure they think it’s easier here than at mums - I / we are probably more strict in terms of house rules, and expectations around helping around the house, tidying up after themselves, etc but that’s partly been out of necessity because at one point, when my children where at home, there were 7 of us here. The DSC say they don’t mind that. Mums house is closer to school and to friends.
I agree that it needs to be DH who liaises with their mum and talks about what’s happening with DSD- but I do think we need talk everything through together. It’s our house, rather than just his. And, just as with eldest DSS, if I’m going to have DSD under our roof full time, then she becomes more of my responsibility. It does change things.

Hi @Primalicecream If the mother is as both DSS & DSD describes, then DSS2 will be the only target and centre of attention from her. She will be vulnerable to emotional abuse and Mum will talk about how the other kids “abandoned” her. She will work with a narrative of disloyalty and betrayal, as will as being a “victim of your manipulation”. DSD2 if she fits the pattern will become anxious and withdrawn. She will be torn between the better, safer lifestyle in your home and being loyal to her mum so that mum isn’t lonely. She will think that she’s protecting her mum, but the reality is that the mum will be putting her in this position at the expense of her own emotional safety. She will probably assume a parentified relationship with her mum, and be forced to grow up far too soon.

I would honestly just leave them too it. I wouldn't get involved in encouraging a relationship with their mum or discouraging one. They are old enough to make their own decisions and if they want to spend time with their mum they can facilitate that themselves. Just be there to support them and listen to them. Teenagers can be fickle creatures and often selfish in that they do what suits them best.

My DH has 50:50 with his kids and my oldest DSS16 went through phases of staying at either parents house or his grandads. If his mum was doing his head in he'd stay with us, he thought dad was being too strict so he'd go back to mums or grandads.

He now lives with us full time and doesn't see his mum much for very good reasons I won't get into. DH has never tried to force him to see his mum, nor has he ever badmouthed her. We listen to his complaints and concerns about his mum and her lifestyle and offer support and guidance. But ultimately whether he has a relationship with her is his choice.

Also, don't pay much attention to what other people think or what the ex is telling other people. It's no one else's business and as long as you can look in the mirror and say you're doing what's best for those kids everyone else can piss off.

You are not ruining the relationship of your sc with their mom, but I can understand her perspective in the sense that instead of fixing the issues, the children chose whats easier and in this case, that is moving in with dad. I had big issues with my mom when I was a teen, but had nowhere else to go and somehow, we had to work on the issues.

You do sound very nice and a house with lots of kids can be fun. I was a single mom with one child for 9 years and my son always wanted to be elsewhere (father was in another country, but he always prefered the friends or relatives houses), going home with me was always a problem and yet, while Im not perfect, I tried to give him my best. He always sounded like he was missing something with me. It was hurtful. I know he loves me and things are good now that hes a teen and has a little brother (and as he learnt to appreciate things).

My DPs two now young adult sons barely even visit us now. My DP had a wife (their exSM) before me and she has a son of their age. She made big efforts to present herself as their family even after the separation and always invites them for events (my DP is terrible organizing anything and just goes to see them himself). ExSMs live-in boyfriend is sociable et also has young adult children, so you can imagine that they all have fun together and its much more fun than with us (I have younger children). Picture a big latin family with music, loud laughs, etc. So while the exSM has the right to do whatever she wants and the SS have the right to enjoy her house more, in some way, I do feel like her presence limited our relationship with my DPs sons. And I always treated them well. I've been there for 9 years too and I dont even get a congradulations for my bday, yet, they do congratulate her.

The fact that you encourage their relationship with their mom is really great. Other than that, theres nothing else you can do. Life is not (always) fair.

What can the OP and the father do about the parentification? Many mothers express their feelings to the children, sometimes too much, and some children take their side, others dont.

If the youngest child is empathic, he would feel bad for his mother even if she doesnt say anything. Many children would. I once witnessed my SD, then 10, crying just because she overheard that her older brother will be sleeping in a friends house. She just imagined her mother alone one night and that was enough for her to feel bad.

Many teenagers play one parent off against the other and use 2 houses to get what they want and I think this needs discouraged. However I think your eldest dss is at least a good gauge that this isn’t likely what’s happening here. I would take you dsd in and let her lead the relationship with her mum. Don’t encourage or discourage. The true relationship/story will show with time as it has with dss.
Don’t concern yourself with what their mother is saying. What was she really going to say if what your step children are saying is true? She’s highly unlikely to tell that version

Just wanted to give a little update to everyone who offered helpful advice.
So, DSD is still very clear that she wants to live here. DH talked things through with her and agreed she would still go to her mums every other weekend and on special days ( eg, mums birthday which is next month). She was ok with that. DH and I chatted about what was reasonable in terms of chores and DH then spoke to her about about what she will need to help with going forward- it’s more or less the same as at mums, but since DH and I have an en suite, I’ve asked that she and DSS keep the main bathroom reasonably tidy in between proper cleans. It’s only what my own DS did at that age, and it means she’s not seeing being here as an easier option!
DH contacted school on Friday just so they were aware ( first day teachers were back after holidays), and they asked him to come in to school for a chat yesterday. Mum had been asked to attend the meeting too but said she didn’t want to. What we have found out is that she has been missing school much more frequently than we had been aware of. Usually coinciding with a weekday mum has off work. School say they have tried to engage mum about this but mum hasn't responded well (DH didn’t think to ask what they meant by that, he was a bit taken aback by what he was hearing). DSD did her GCSE mocks before Christmas and DH was shown her marks, which are much lower than expected. Form tutor has been worried about DSD for a few months because she has been very quiet and often sitting on her own in class and at break times.
DSD was really upset in the meeting but did calm down once she realised she wasnt in trouble, and agreed to having some support sessions from a counsellor who comes into school. Form tutor did say that when he does ask about family she always says very positive things about DH and I and that he thinks her living with us for now is probably a good thing. School will also keep an eye on my other DSS, who is in their sixth form which is reassuring.
Overall, things are good, we are settling into a bit of a routine. DSD seems well settled - has her ups and downs but sometimes hard to say what is ‘normal’ teenage moodiness and what might be something more!
DSD mum has gone quiet in terms of saying things to other people, DH and I are worried about her but we need to be boundaried about what we do about that- she has her own family and friends to offer support.

I have had similar.

I'd say, from experience, please listen to the kids.

Not saying the situation is the same, but my eldest DSD came to us when she was 13 after clash after clash with mum. Younger sister stayed with mum (she was 7).

Police rang me totally out of the blue a year later at 7am one Saturday morning to tell me mum had been arrested (for abuse of the children!) and we needed to collect youngest immediately from grandparents. She's been with us ever since. Mum has done prison time.

Eldest was very bitter about mum from the word go, told us tales of horrendous situations, which we put down to teenage anger. Turns out, she was downplaying the situation massively.

Will NEVER forgive myself for not getting younger sister out of there a year earlier, it is something that genuinely haunts me. But social services deemed it the best place for her to be, and we took their word.

Sometimes mums aren't the best people for kids to be with.

How’s it worked out OP?

DSD is doing really well. She’s 17 now and still living with us full time. She sees her mum once a month on a Saturday or Sunday but rarely stays overnight - her choice - like most 17 year olds she wants to be out with friends at the weekend! Things between her mum and her are fairly cordial. Mum doesn’t contact DSD much if at all between visits, and isn’t at all pro active in suggesting that they see each other more often. It’s almost as though she’s lost interest in DSD now she’s older and more independent- although even as I type this I recognise there may be other things going on in mums life which I don’t know about and which might explain what’s going on. Anyway, the main thing, and the thing DH and I can do something about, is making sure DSD knows she’s loved and cared for. We are really proud of her and how she’s dealt with everything over the last year or so.