Nipping beginnings of parental alienation in the bud?

[Aloneinmanchester]

I'm posting in case anyone has any advice. Since separation from his ex about 3 years ago, my DP has had 50/50 arrangement with his DC (aged 9 and 6) although he does all of the 'admin' stuff like doctors, dentist, parents evening, form-filling, applying for passports etc. Mum has a history of impulsive behaviour, debts, dramatic falling outs with friends, not being able to hold down a job etc. She moved straight in with a new DP after separation and DC live there half the time. There don't seem to be any huge issues there as the DC seem to get on with him (tho they don't mention him often) and he probably has a stabling influence, although to me it seemed very soon - we waited a lot longer and did gradual intros and we still don't live together and stress that it's their house, I am visiting etc.

Anyway, over the past few months, there have been the beginnings of PA visible but only with regard to eldest DC. She has a tendency to favour the eldest and ignore the youngest. She babies him and encourages him to be very emotionally clingy (entirely inappropriate for his age). It's now graduated to her telling him to say that he wants to see her every day and can't cope without her. As in, she says this openly to him at drop-offs and that his dad is keeping her from him and that he (the child) needs to speak out about it. He then repeats it, although it sounds rehearsed rather than truly heartfelt. It's quite heartbreaking and takes a lot of work for my DP to calm him down (after which he is totally fine). Other DC seems happy.

Was wondering if anyone has any advice or had been in similar situation and what you did to help it? My DP and I never talk badly about Mum, only briefly correcting blatant untruths (like when she told the child that my DP threw her out and made her homeless, which is utter rubbish as he gave her a large lump sum for a deposit despite never being married and having no obligation to do so and she cheated on him). We don't want court if possible. I don't get directly involved as I don't feel it's my place but my DP makes clear his DC can always talk to him and tries to create a safe space etc.

Thank you.

Hi @Aloneinmanchester I am a step-parent but first of all I just want to pre-empt the people coming on who are immediately going to say that parental alienation doesn't exist and that it's just used by abusive men to gain access to their children. They say this because a lot of people can't cope with the cognitive dissonance of the fact that while it does definitely happen, there are many vile men out there that abuse and use the terminology to gain access. For this reason, I tend not to use it as a term as it gives people an excuse not to answer your question and just drag the thread off on an unhelpful tangent. Just want to get that out the way first of all!

Secondly, I don't think there is a lot you can do to directly challenge this as if you say anything to your ss it will get into an unhealthy back and forth with mum. She sounds like the type of person who thrives on this kind of drama and will be a bit deflated if you don't give it to her, so I think it's best to take the indirect approach and call her bluff a bit.

Be good to him, and if he says he wants to see her every day, I would just not make an issue of it cause it's what she wants, just roll with it. You and your DP know it's coming from her, but that doesn't matter. She is making ss believe that is his reality (and he won't be able to differentiate his feelings and thoughts from hers at age 9) so you just need him to see you and dad being supportive of his relationship with mum. Can he have regular face times with her? I do find it very odd that she only says this about her eldest son, favouring him above the others :-/ sounds delightful.

I'm in exactly the same situation. We've only recently found out about the lies the ex had been telling the kids when my 16yo DSS opened up to us about what goes on at his mum's after he had a fall out with her. Although, we had suspected for a while that she'd badmouthed us. When DSD was 3 she once said she didn't like daddy and daddy had to go in the bin, while she was lying cuddling him.

Like you DP, my DH gave his ex a lump sum from the sale of his house after they split despite them not being married and her not being entitled to anything. He wanted her to be able to set up a nice home for his kids when she had them. She ended up moving into her brother's house and blew the cash on god knows what. She told the kids and anyone who would listen that my DH stole everything from her and left her with nothing. We actually have court next week because she thinks she's entitled to a further £30k from him. She cheated on him and physically assaulted him, the last time being Infront of their then 2yo. Yet she feels hard done by.

Like you've, we've never badmouthed the ex infront of the kids but have answered questions honestly or corrected lies they've been told as diplomatically as possible.

If you haven't already, get a court order in place so she can't withhold access as it sounds like that's what she's building up to.

About 6 months ago my 5yo DSD was saying things like "I wish I could stay at mum's all the time" "I like it at mum's better". "My mum said I can go to her whenever I want". I said "so you don't want to come and see daddy any more?" And she said "yeah I do, I do I was just kidding". I reminded her of all the fun stuff she gets to do at dad's house. Her mum doesn't do much with her and she spends a lot of time in her room with an iPad or with a babysitter.

It's so hard. Keep doing what you're doing, reassuring him. Ask him how he feels about what his mum says. If that's really how he feels. Kids aren't daft. They know who's there for them and who isn't. They learn when they're being used as a pawn in a game.

Thanks so much for the replies and insights. Regarding seeing more of his mum, there is a regular face time in place which is also when some of this stuff is said by mum. I will speak to my DP but I think he is not keen on increasing the FaceTime because it does destabilise the kids and also she likes calling when she knows they have after school hobbies and things. DP never tries to disrupt the time she has with the kids, as he knows that would be inappropriate.

Yeah weird that it’s only the oldest but not so weird when you know more about her personality. The favouritism and rewards cycle is part of how she operates so the eldest is the one who gets told he is special and amazing but he has to work to keep her approval. It’s actually made the youngest more able to cope though, as she is not subjected to the same level of manipulation.

We will continue to support him. My DP is also in contact with the school and I think they witness a lot of dramatics at the door of the classroom. During the time he’s with mum, DSS will cry and cling to her and refuse to go into the classroom. He’s in year 5. This isn’t when it’s changeover day - it’s when his mum is collecting him later the same day but he claims not to be able to spend 6 hours without her. Instead of reassuring him, she says she will miss him and hates leaving him 😑. With my DP, he is totally fine going in. His ex sees this as evidence that he loves her more and hates his dad whereas I see it as evidence that my DP provides a more secure environment and DSS doesn’t have to do a whole drama routine to “prove his love”. My DP is v against his son living with mum more days as she never does homework with him, no reading, no screen time limit and constant late bedtimes (might also be why it seems like the more “fun” house). He’s not doing well academically as it is.

I will speak to DP and see if he can reassure DSS that if he genuinely does want to speak to his mum on FaceTime he can ask him and he will arrange it. Problem is she will probably ramp it up though and ask if she can come and pick him up (but not his sister of course). Such a hard situation.

Sometimes I think maybe court is what’s needed but DP isn’t keen as she’d tell the kids ALL about it.

Also thanks for the tip about using the term parental alienation. I agree it’s a bit of a controversial one. Hopefully people will read the post though and see that DP is not some sort of deadbeat dad claiming PA because his ex has valid concerns about his parenting ability.

She sounds like the type of person who thrives on this kind of drama and will be a bit deflated if you don't give it to her, so I think it's best to take the indirect approach and call her bluff a bit.

And yes, she is, 100%. I am pretty sure this has all started because my DP has started being more firm about boundaries and minimising the time he interacts with her. She used to send 15-20 texts a day and sometimes pop by unannounced and he insisted on email only and will only respond if it needs a response. As in he will respond to “what are the children’s passport numbers” but not “have you given my babies a cuddle for me today” 😣. That got her very angry and this is her response but at the cost of DSS’s mental health sadly.

Whether or not your DP goes for court ordered anything, I hope he is keeping a record of everything that is even slightly off. I'd consider things like a doorbell camera that automatically records audio as well as video. Keep the emails, keep a record of what school says, (he can email the teacher to confirm what they said). Keep a diary of what she says that isn't recorded. Do little videos chatting to SS about what mum says and how he feels about it. You don't have to ever use them but they'll be there if your DH ever needs them.

Thank you @Grimchmas. Yes, he has started keeping records of everything now and I suggested to him to covertly record the audio from the FaceTime calls as some of them are quite bad and end with both kids in tears and mum in tears too 😬. Also emails to the teacher and to the GP so there’s a clear record of him informing professionals about his concerns.

i am reassured by the pp saying that kids will eventually work it out for themselves. I really hope so. They are lucky to have a dad who provides a stable and loving home for them and I hope it goes some way to offsetting some of this stuff. She hasn’t (yet) moved on to me being a bad influence but I’m pretty sure that’s coming. If it’s best for the kids, I will take more of a backseat and let them have more time with just them and their dad as well, though i already try to do this. Although as she’s 100% financially reliant on her DP, she can’t really push the “it’s bad for them to have a stepparent” line very convincingly.

@Aloneinmanchester Calling at times when she knows the kids have hobbies and things arranged is absolutely not on! It sounds like it all very much driven by her needs and not her DC at all. I suppose a combination of careful management and strong boundaries is needed here. What a nightmare!

( Sorry rant incoming- We experience something similar in some ways with my SC. It does seem at times mum will purposely time communications for when she knows we have something nice planned such as during holidays or days out and send things like 'What kind of tv would you like in you bedroom? 'Would you like me to buy you these trainers?' What child is going to say no to that? And the sd ends up feeling like she is missing out and can't wait to get home to mum's and affects how she acts with us, meaning she can't enjoy what we're doing because we haven't 'lavished' as much money on her as mum. DH exactly the same as yours- he doesn't interrupt sd when she does things with mum and respects their time. Another thing we've noticed is mum is always in the room in the background whispering things when she calls us, but we always give SD space to call mum in private. Cause we think that's just the decent thing to do -she's 11 and entitled to have private conversation with mum, but apparently doesn't go both ways. (Such double standards 😔)

And interesting what you say about the dynamics with her other children. I read somewhere that parents with narcissistic tendencies will often have a favoured 'golden child' and this does remind me of that.

I agree, you would hope most posters would see that your dh is clearly not a deadbeat, but sadly from experience I see all too many people (mostly not stepmums) jump on and pick out one small detail from a post, remove it from the context and use it as a stick to beat OP with. Good luck OP, you sound like great parents, both of you :)

It's crazy how similar these women operate. We had the same with my DSD for 2 years at nursery and for the first few weeks of school. Would cry when mum dropped her off but nursery told us as soon as her mum left she was absolutely fine. There were never any tears when DH or I dropped her off. Even the nursery staff commented on the difference and that she was always happy and smiley with us. I think DSD was just putting on a show for her mum. Again, her mum sees this as she just wants her mum and loves her more.

DSD used to tell us that her mum really misses her when she's at dad's. She would sometimes get upset at the idea of her mum being sad and felt guilty that her going to her dad's was what was making her mum sad. It's just awful to put that sort of guilt on a little kid.

Her mum does the big over dramatic "I'll miss you so much" bla bla bla at handover. Now DSD generally just seems desperate to wriggle away from her and run into our house. The first few weeks of school I would get a kiss and cuddle at drop off but now she just runs in. I went to give her a hug one morning and she was just eager to get to the playground to see her friends. So now I don't push for it. She knows she's loved. She often asks for cuddles at home but is probably now too cool for hugs at school! Haha! I think it's important to take cues from the child and not force things to make yourself feel better.

We have her week on week off. There's no phone calls or facetimes and DSD never asks for her mum when she's with us. She seems to have risen above whatever her mum says and the guilt trips.

Start a notebook.
Be as specific as you can be. Date, time, as close to verbatim as you can
Have a ritual, quote whatever you need to make sure all notes taken, all actions considered, all routes explored are about protecting the kids. Not adult hurt feelings and “being in the right”. But about the kids.

I don’t care what prefix (or lack thereof) goes before the word parent. If you are taking steps to ward off the life long damage attempts to alienate can incur, then GodSpeed. And thank you. Because we need as few new members of our tribe as possible.

My husband was a victim of serious PAS 20 years ago. He has not seen his two boys (who are now men) since. I think/hope courts are more enlightened these days. Back then, although the court/CAFCAS/contact centre ('to allay mum's concerns) all said alienation was taking place, but by that point, the boys' happiness was so enmeshed with their mother's, the court would not act. This was before 50-50 residency was a thing.
The court said the only thing they could do was look at a 'fresh start'; with new reports and the ex had at the point run out of legal aid and wanted to apply for it in the eldest's son's name (he was 10) to fight to prevent contact the boy was adamant he did not want but could tell no-one why apart from daddy is horrible to poor mummy. At that point my husband had not seen his ex for two years let alone spoke to her, apart from at court.
By the end, the ex refused to leave the contact centre as she needed 'to keep my children safe' and every letter, card and gift were returned with a note telling my husband to 'stop taunting poor mummy'.
In the end, he gave up.
Now, I have posted this story before and have been told I am lying, my husband is lying and I am a 'shiney-eyed new wife'. We have been married for nearly 20 years.
I have also been told I would not have been allowed in court (I was) and my husband was 'a prince among men' for giving up the contact battles, even if he thought it was in the boys' best interests.
It will be interesting to see how this thread goes.

@FortheBeautyoftheEarth oh wow, the phone call thing sounds so familiar to our situation. When DP calls on his scheduled time, the kids are looking past the camera to someone (ie their mum) before answering any questions. He was like “are you looking forward to going to football at the weekend” (DP and his brother were taking the kids to a game) and DSS looked to his mum as if to say “am I?” before just going silent. He loves football but can’t even say that in front of her. DP also leaves the room for their calls but he can hear what happens on them and sees their distress afterwards. And the stuff about interrupting planned activities is also familiar. We’ve had at least one holiday nearly ruined because of a “traffic jam” meaning handover was 2 hours late (she’s 7 miles away).

DP’s ex doesn’t want them doing extra curriculars. DP takes them during his time but they can never progress and get good as they only go every other week. She told DSS he could get brain damage from footie practice as he could get hit in the head (wtf) and he refused to go for a while, saying DP was putting his life in danger (again, wtf).

The golden child thing is textbook and fits to a tee as do so so many other things. But low level enough for authorities not to be interested. DP and I have accepted it for what it is and focus on damage limitation. While having them with DP full time would be ideal and definitely better for their education, he doesn’t want to cut them off from their mum and we also realise that it would just fuel the narrative that DP is trying to stop DSS seeing his mum. We will just have to stay strong, ignore her drama and be there for the kids and try to instil good values. In time they might realise the truth.

Wow, so much of that rings true for us too. The teachers have also commented to me and DP that there’s a huge difference and that the kids ‘struggle’ when it’s mum dropping them off. But yes, like in your case, she sees this as validation that she’s the better parent. At 9, lots of DSS’s classmates are getting to the stage where they’re a bit embarrassed about holding their parents’ hand and stuff whereas he’s there clinging to his mum saying “don’t leave me” and making a show. Yet is fine as soon as she goes.

We also do week on week off. Good to hear that you seem to have got through the worst of it and hats off to you for dealing with it as it’s horrible. Interesting that you have no FaceTimes. I think that would probably make it better (as it’s then and at handover that the issues arise) but obviously it wouldn’t go down well.

Yes, this all sounds very familiar. My husband was walking on eggshells the entire time he was with the boys because any issue, regardless of how small, would mean the oldest bursting into tears, demanding to call his mum to 'rescue them', which she invariably did. When they went further afield, she used to drive and park up nearby, telling the boys she was only 10 minutes away if they needed her. All designed to instil into the children that their father was a danger to them and she was the 'best' parent. At pick up, they would excitedly show their mother what they had collected, bought or made, and it was invariably returned later the same week with accusations of taunting poor mummy.
Just before he gave up the fight, poor mummy drove 200 miles to collect the boys two days into a seven-day holiday (which she had tried to convince the courts not to allow) after the oldest let go on our baby's buggy at the edge of a pier and my husband (not unreasonably I think!) grabbed the pushchair in a panic. Cue a call home and mummy to the rescue.

I’m so sorry to hear about your experience as a child. I’ve read a lot about it to educate myself and it’s horrific that someone would do that to a child just out of spite. I try to be empathetic, understand that mum is missing her kids when they are with dad, that she probably feels insecure, but at the end of the day she is an adult and what she is doing is awful (and there are many more examples of awfulness). I really hope me and DP can mitigate at least some of the damage.

DP does keep a log of stuff and has kept all the abusive texts and emails. I really hope we can undo some of the damage.

We are also in this exact situation. I'm actually speaking to a family therapist this afternoon to try and get some advice on how we handle it. Because it's hard to challenge the terrible lies being told about dh and I by the step kids mum without effectively telling the kids that she is lying to them. They worship her so it's going to be very difficult for them to accept that she might not be being fair or truthful. And yet they parrot everything she says and believe it as fact and that's affecting our relationship with them. It's pretty awful.

Horrific. Your poor DH. I’m so so sorry and also I feel so bad for those poor boys/men who were and probably are still abused. I don’t understand how anyone can do that.

And sorry to hear the backlash you got. I think that because there are lots of stories of abusive men in the family courts, often making PA allegations, some people don’t want to accept that it can be the mother who is the alienator. And your DH walked away because he loved his DC too much to subject them to more drama. Heartbreaking. There’s not really much else that can be said.

I’m not the type to just immediately believe my DP but I see him with his kids, I know he’s a kind and gentle person. He’s got a close group of friends he made in primary school, a stable job, good values and morals. Everyone I’ve spoken to says he was emotionally abused during his relationship. He was a bit of a shell of a man when I met him and quite anxious but he’s much happier and more confident now. He loves his kids more than anything so it’s so gutting to see this happening to him.

Solidarity. It really is awful isn’t it? And yes we are careful about trying to avoid any suggestions of lying. We sometimes say she must be mistaken but we never use the word lie. I really hope the therapist can help and give some suggestions on how to cope. Let me know if there are any good ones. I just can’t fathom how someone can weaponise their kids against the other parent. I just can’t.

I really appreciate your position on teasing out the why behind the actions. I know it’s a cliche, but hurt people hurt people (even their own children).

At some point the kids may need to grapple with the contradiction between “the person supposed to love me the most” and “the person who loaded me up as a weapon, no matter me getting smashed up inside on impact”.

It’s quite a tough one to wrestle with. Having somebody who was there do the opposite of telling you are half genetically “a monster” is huge. And can save the smallie at the sharp end decades of teasing through painful memories to get a more 360° view of the why. Until the why is understood it can be close to impossible to set yourself free of the past.

My husband's ex had done the same to her daughter she had with her first husband. My husband naively believed how awful his stepdaughter's dad was until he went on a course with him (they worked in the same business, but not together) and he found out that this man had been fighting to see his daughter for six years and was paying substantial maintenance every month, which the ex had never told my husband about and was squirreling it away while my husband paid for all his SD needed (the ex did not work).
I think I was told I was lying about that too 😭

It's irrelevant what she thinks. You and DP seem sensible enough to evaluate how involved or uninvolved you should be in the kids lives. Take the cues from the kid, not their mum.

If I took cues from my DSDs mum I just simply wouldn't exist.

Yes I had no support on here when I asked for advice. I was told I was naive, after dh for his money (hahaha), and that he MUST have done something wrong-despite me actually seeing evidence he hadn't and being there for some of the things she made allegations about! MN is terrible for misandry around this topic.

You’re right of course, I just worry sometimes. Also I wouldn’t want them to think I was abandoning them or something by suddenly being around less but I will continue to encourage my DP to do things with just them, including separately. In that sense, it’s helpful for me to be around because when he was on his own, he couldn’t have one on one time with each of them very often. I think DSS in particular would benefit from one on one bonding with his dad.

That sounds horrible. It’s a shame that people react that way. I deliberately posted in the step parent board because I thought there might be more understanding here. Otherwise I’d probably be told to butt out (although I do butt out, I am never in the room for FaceTime calls and I make sure I’m not around for handovers either).

Honestly, it sounds like you're dealing with it perfectly and sensibly.

My DH does bath time and bedtime in our house. That's his special time with DSD. They do some things just the two of them but generally if I'm not joining them she asks why and wants me to come. Haha!

But yeah, take the cues from the kid. It's a fine line between seeming detached and making sure he has enough one on one time with dad but it sounds like you have the balance right.

It is definitely something that leaves a long lasting impact. I hope that having their dad and me as adults in their lives who will try to keep them safe will undo some of the damage.

And yes, very true about hurt people hurting others. She does hurt and sometimes we see her trying to atone for losing her rag or whatever by lavishing gifts on her kids which suggests some guilt. I also think that in her mind, she has convinced herself that she’s doing the right thing by how she’s acting. It’s still abusive though and she is not capable of meeting their emotional needs. Or educational, but that’s a whole other story.