Nipping beginnings of parental alienation in the bud?

[Aloneinmanchester]

I'm posting in case anyone has any advice. Since separation from his ex about 3 years ago, my DP has had 50/50 arrangement with his DC (aged 9 and 6) although he does all of the 'admin' stuff like doctors, dentist, parents evening, form-filling, applying for passports etc. Mum has a history of impulsive behaviour, debts, dramatic falling outs with friends, not being able to hold down a job etc. She moved straight in with a new DP after separation and DC live there half the time. There don't seem to be any huge issues there as the DC seem to get on with him (tho they don't mention him often) and he probably has a stabling influence, although to me it seemed very soon - we waited a lot longer and did gradual intros and we still don't live together and stress that it's their house, I am visiting etc.

Anyway, over the past few months, there have been the beginnings of PA visible but only with regard to eldest DC. She has a tendency to favour the eldest and ignore the youngest. She babies him and encourages him to be very emotionally clingy (entirely inappropriate for his age). It's now graduated to her telling him to say that he wants to see her every day and can't cope without her. As in, she says this openly to him at drop-offs and that his dad is keeping her from him and that he (the child) needs to speak out about it. He then repeats it, although it sounds rehearsed rather than truly heartfelt. It's quite heartbreaking and takes a lot of work for my DP to calm him down (after which he is totally fine). Other DC seems happy.

Was wondering if anyone has any advice or had been in similar situation and what you did to help it? My DP and I never talk badly about Mum, only briefly correcting blatant untruths (like when she told the child that my DP threw her out and made her homeless, which is utter rubbish as he gave her a large lump sum for a deposit despite never being married and having no obligation to do so and she cheated on him). We don't want court if possible. I don't get directly involved as I don't feel it's my place but my DP makes clear his DC can always talk to him and tries to create a safe space etc.

Thank you.

Oh god I could have written your OP. You really do have my sympathies.

Things that helped - boundaries, grey rock technique, don’t engage in the drama. Court ordered agreement. Pick ups and drop offs at school (remove conflict between DP and ex). Keep your boundaries high. Really high. But nip in the bud too - so don’t shift on days they’re with you unless it’s a birthday or christening.

Things that helped the kids - less contact, having their own phones, ending calls if they became visibly distressed (cafcass advise this during the court process).

Fostering a sense of independence and agency - sounds counterintuitive but as they grow up they enjoy it, they want their own independence, to decide their own fate. We pick certain battles and not others and give them a degree of autonomy over those things.

You have to, to some extent, stand back and let them form their own opinions and their own minds. And you never know if it will pay off. But very much ‘when they go low, we go high’ and in the ways you can - make that obvious through your actions and behaviours. You’ll be surprised how well they respond to proper role modelling.

Wow, sorry that you went through this too. I honestly wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Those sound like good tips and the not budging to me sounds better than just giving in and letting her basically monopolise the time my DP has with the kids. That’s why increasing the FaceTime as someone suggested doesn’t sound great to me but I will talk to DP about it. I just think it won’t stop and also sends an awful message to DSD that her mum is calling her brother/asking to pick him up but not her.

Grey rock sounds good as does school handover. Good tip re ending the call. I am going to speak to DP about it. The call will start out fine and they will be chatting to her. Then will come “and do you miss me?” and then “is daddy still refusing to let you see me because you do have human rights”, or some similar nonsense. That’s when the tears start and sometimes she will cry too (or pretend to possibly) and then she will say she can’t last the two days until handover without cuddling DSS (DSD has normally left the room by then, in tears) and that people who keep mummies away from their babies are bad people (I’ve only heard a couple of these as I try not to be there for the calls but they are disturbing as hell). So if DP could hang up before it gets to that, it would probably help. I can’t see how more of these could be good.

Good plan re independence and agency. She babies them and they definitely do like being spoken to like real people rather than infants and we will think of things to do to help them feel more independent as they no doubt feel out of control with the situation as it is.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

Tbh what your are describing re the phone calls sounds a bit like a safeguarding issue to me-the effect that must have on both those children's mental health-and I'd be pretty concerned about the mothers mental health too. If that's what she is saying on calls she knows your dh can hear it doesn't bear thinking about what she is saying when they are with her. It's totally inappropriate!

If you have evidence of that on a regular basis I think it might be time to see a solo solicitor and find out how best to raise those concerns!

A solicitor. I don't know what a solo solicitor is

Thank you @piscofrisco It’s pretty clear to me that she is emotionally abusing them but having a family member that’s a social worker, I know that these things fly under the radar frequently, as they have much more serious cases to deal with. They are fed, clothed and not covered in bruises plus ex’s DP is fairly wealthy so I can’t see social services doing that much, although this is just my unqualified opinion. I also dread to think what it’s like when DP is not there. DP is going to speak again to the school and he has told them about some of the stuff going on so if there was to be a referral, it should ideally come from the school rather than DP.

Anyway I will suggest the solicitor thing to DP. I know he’s not keen on the legal route but she is the sort of person who might need a judge to tell her what she can and can’t do.

I think you deffo need a court offset re contact. You can see a mile off that she is gearing up towards withholding contact if DSS if not DSD. Court orders we fairly toothless in the event but better to have one in place and be able to go for emergency hearings on enforcement than have to start at the beginning and end up not seeing dss for months on end whilst you go through the laborious process of getting one in place .
No one wants to go down the legal
Route but I genuinely would advise it here as the woman sounds like she is already escalating a bit and she's unlikely to stop at this point.

Yes, sadly that’s probably right. I will chat to him. And yes enforcing an existing order is definitely easier than starting afresh, with possibly completely alienated children by then. Sigh. I think sometimes DP still naively thinks that there are certain lines she wouldn’t cross whereas I know there aren’t and that she might well try to stop contact fully and I have to remind him.

I'd get a court order in place ASAP as DSS will be getting to an age where the court will take into account what he wants and of she's brainwashed him or prepped him he could end up saying he wants to be with his mum all the time.

If the phone calls aren't court ordered I'd put a stop to them. They're causing distress to DSS. I'd give the mum a chance to stop her "I miss you nonsense". Get DP to contact her and say that the things she is saying are causing distress to the kids and of she doesn't stop it he will stop the calls altogether. If she continues after the warning just stop the calls. Yes she might kick off at the handovers but it seems she's causing drama then anyway. Talk to the kids and explain why you think the calls should stop and that you can see the calls are upsetting them so think it would be better to stop them.

I have learned from bitter experience that the lines you think won't be crossed will be crossed and then some :(

Ideally you would stop the excessive and upsetting phone calls. But dss sounds very enmeshed with her already, and it's likely that she has already sowed the 'daddy is trying to take you from me' seeds with him successfully. Anything you do re reversing her influence-like limiting the calls- reinforces the message she has given him and in his eyes he will just think 'mum was right, dad is doing exactly what she said he would' (though obvs dh would be doing it for the right reasons not the reasons the mum has given). This is the issue with parental alienation or coercion or whatever you want to call it. You have to be several steps ahead of someone who is thinking in a very warped way and who isn't putting the child above their own needs or wants-whilst you are still trying to do that and won't do anything that risks harming the child. It's an uneven
Playing field from the get go.

Yes, sadly you're completely right on that one. And yes, DSS is very enmeshed with her and it would play into her hands perfectly if the calls were stopped. Looking back, DP should probably have got a court order from the get-go but there we are.

we will think of things to do to help them feel more independent as they no doubt feel out of control with the situation as it is

I started with small stuff, and a decision between two things. Do you want a bath or a shower? Do you want to watch Malcolm in the Middle or The Simpsons.

Language around babying - we stopped using it. We played hardball, no you are big enough to do X and Y. How about now you are eleven you cook tea for everyone (supervised)? We made sure we moved them on and up and we involved them - one’s starting puberty so taking them to Boots, letting them choose their own products within a budget.

All simple stuff but really effective. Kids appreciate having some choice, within the boundaries and where would you rather live? Somewhere you thrive and have space to grow, or somewhere you’re smothered - at teenage years that’s going to be hard work.

I know someone’s said about cutting calls might make it worse, and it can be distressing.

The key really is in the transition and how you display it. That could be taking the phone calmly and saying ‘I think that’s one for another day, we’ll call again tomorrow’ and hang up and ask who wants to play on the Xbox.

I found with the youngest they effectively mirrored Mum’s behaviour but didn’t actually FEEL it, and within ten minutes would be onto the next thing.

Older is harder, but then you have more room to explain in age appropriate language ‘actually I could see you becoming upset and I don’t think that’s nice for you, Mummy does miss you, in the same way that I miss you when you are not here, but you’re my son/daughter and I don’t want you to worry about that, neither would Mummy, so shall we go and make hot chocolates and watch a film’

The anxiety (in my experience) doesn’t stem from them actually missing another person it stems from them worrying about another person, and that’s where you can help. Worry Monsters also work for this kind of thing with younger kids.

The emotional abuse you are describing is really harmful. I think your DP, with your support, needs to get a handle on the situation.
We had similar behaviour and it was becoming extremely difficult for the DSC to be able to enjoy spending time with their Dad. The lies & the emotional trauma for the kids just got worse & worse. They weren’t being allowed to have their own thoughts, were being pressured in to lying, and were not being allowed to grow up.
We resolved it by having an independent psychologist do a full assessment which resulted in the SDC coming to live with us full time. Mum only has supervised contact.
The court recognised the severe impact of the PA and emotional abuse and the long term impact this would have on them as adults.
It was a very difficult and costly process but the alternative was allowing the kids to continue in an enmeshed abusive relationship. Just because she is their Mum & loves them doesn’t mean it’s not abuse.

Thanks for those last couple of replies. Yes I am acutely aware that the older DSS gets, the more weight his wishes and feelings carry. He is easily influenced and I think struggles with a sense of identity so wouldn’t stand his own ground. That to me suggests that locking down agreements in a court order would be good. Also gives a good reason to follow it (ie “a professional person looked at the situation and decided that this was best and we have to stick to it now even if not everyone likes it 100% of the time”). The problems we have have arisen because mum is telling DSS that the arrangements are up to him (and that he should choose her).

@Walkingbythesea thats really interesting and heartening about the psychologist report and that the court took it seriously. I think that DP, having had many years in a relationship with his ex has become used to some of the behaviour that took place when they lived together that is actually not normal and very abusive. Like promising very young children a treat day out and then ripping up the tickets in front of their faces because they did something minor to annoy her. Lots of stuff like that, even including inventing medical conditions for them. I think he was gaslit a lot so doesn’t always see it and I have to point out to him how incredibly not normal it is.

She does love them, I really don’t doubt that, but as you say, that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse. She is not capable of seeing the impact of her behaviour on others.

Hi @Aloneinmanchester I also could have written parts of your post, you're not alone just wanted to show some support.

We seem to get it more in phases depending on what ex has got going on, it was worse during Covid as she wasn't working away like she normally would and seemed to be bored, so on the surface was taking more interest in SS (younger of the 2), but was actually creating a lot of drama and telling him that he could just stay with her all the time, and she won't have any rules & how harsh our rules were etc.

She then went back to working normally, and things settled a lot. But then she split up with her boyfriend, and it was chaos again, but then settled again. She has recently had several different boyfriends in the past year etc. you get the picture...

The most recent one was SS telling school I was horrible, nasty, shouted at him etc. some really awful claims. We could prove all claims were false, and school have been supporting all of us with this. It was totally out of the blue in mine and SS's relationship as we had been getting on really well, however my husband and his ex had, a couple of days before this, had a huge argument about something totally unrelated. SS also then made a comment to DH along the lines of "I had to say it" and his Mum had again, been telling him that he could stay there with her and sleep in her bed, doesn't have to come to ours where there are bedtimes etc.

Like you, ex has always favoured the child who would be easily influenced, she went through a small phase of doing this sort of thing with SD but she never got the same reaction so it's all about SS and I actually think she ignores SD quite a lot. She has always babied SS and he often plays to it. I have actually raised my concerns with husband that SS will really struggle in secondary school next year because of this so we need to look at how to support him in this transition.

She has also done a lot of making a big scene on things like mothers day, she used to do this whole "I can't believe I didn't have you on Mother's Day, I didn't wake up with my babies" wailing thing on pick up, yet she would be the one to put in the shared calendar that they would be with us an extra night, because she was going out.

My husband can also be of the "she wouldn't do that" mentality and even to this day I don't know why he thinks this way, because she always does then do "that" whatever it may be. We too have had the whole "omg you have X medical condition!!!!" at the slightest sign of a sniffle or even with no real symptoms at all.

All very messy and complicated and there is obviously a lot more to it, I would be here all day! But it's all about game playing and point scoring (which she actually said once in a whatsapp, then deleted it but not before DH got the screenshot), it can be vile and no good for anybody. I think most people have said everything I would have to say but for us the most important thing is putting really strong boundaries in place with the ex and sticking to them consistently.

I definitely agree with taking a screenshot of all necessary messages (then save them to the cloud or get him to send to you too as back up in case it gets lost).

With phone contact, it was so unsettling for the SKs when their Mum would call and disrupt bedtimes, bath times and generally throw our whole evening routine off and cause a lot of upset and distress, DH didn't need to stop this as ex was going through boyfriend stuff and luckily it fizzled, but we noticed huge improvement when phone calls weren't happening. This was all when they were probably about the same age as your SKs though, maybe younger, so not an issue for us now.

Oh my god @sunshinesummers so much of that chimes with our experience (it almost sounds like the same person at times) and that's awful that your DSS felt he had to make allegations against you and I'm pleased it came to nothing. I am bracing myself for that happening at some point. I have a very good relationship with both of them but I know that if mum wants to use that as a line of attack, DSS might well feel he needs to turn against me. I have no interactions with her and avoid being there at handover to avoid that happening as hopefully out of sight is out of mind.

The medical thing is exhausting and it's the same this end with overreacting at sniffles as well as inventing allergies and special needs, which the doctors have never even hinted at so they are utterly fabricated and not due to a misunderstanding. Like you, I worry about when DSS goes to secondary school. I worry now to be honest. His classmates are getting to an age where they want to be independent and he's clinging and saying "mummy don't leave me" in full view of them. She quite likes him being isolated and 'special' though as it makes him more dependent on her. Like in your case, she ignores DSD to a large extent and yes, it's because she doesn't get the same reaction from her. DSD is an independent little girl who has her own views and opinions and she doesn't do the whole adoring performance that mum wants. She is mainly useful in terms of getting compliments about how pretty she is (which i think mum takes as reinforcement of her own beauty so she likes dressing her up). DSD says she wants to be a vet but mum tells her she can "be like Cinderella" instead (ie sit around and wait for a rich man).

Interesting points about the calls. They are with her this week but we will see how the call goes next week when they are here and then will need to decide what we do. We find them destabilising and would prefer the whole week without interruptions so that the kids can settle.

Same with you that her behaviour depends on what is going on in her life and pretty sure the current stuff is triggered by DP saying email contact only and please don't drop round unannounced. I am hoping her current relationship lasts as it would be terrible for the kids to be destabilised again and have to leave what is now a home to them. She is completely financially dependent on her DP and he pays for everything so that makes me think she will maintain the relationship, although I do wonder what her DP gets out of it. She wouldn't do well on benefits due to her lifestyle and expectations so I can't see her leaving current DP unless it's to move in with another man who will maintain her. Sounds like in your case it must have been quite disruptive with the many boyfriends. I hope we don't have that to come.

We will continue with the boundaries, grey rocking etc on a day to day basis but I will have a serious chat to DP about him trying to get a court order. I feel sick sometimes at the thought of what could happen when DSS is a bit older. It is what it is though and we will have to work through it even if it feels unfair sometimes.

It's funny how all these women act differently but with the same end goal.
My husband's ex portrayed herself very much as the brave victim, abandoned to bring up children alone. She always said in court she was acting on behalf of the children and they were begging her not to make them see their dad? What could she do? She was their advocate.
The youngest was born with a medical condition which was entirely corrected when he was three, signed off by the hospital and could lead an entirely normal life.
Six years later, his ex was still adamant she could not work as she needed to be there in case the child had a relapse and this was used to justify refusing contact or holidays. The judge saw through her but she still blocked contact nevertheless.

Yup, this one likes being the victim too. And she also claims to be her kids' advocate. Sorry to hear that she still blocked contact even though it was court ordered.
One thing that goes in our favour a bit is that she is also very hostile towards the school, tells SK that it's a failing school (it's Ofsted Outstanding), their teachers are thick, you don't need to do well at school to be successful etc. So the teachers are a bit wise to her because she's raised her 'concerns' before (to do with classroom temperature, the morality of setting homework and the fact that DSS scraped his knee meant they couldn't keep him safe 😂) and they have just batted them straight back. I think they know precisely who is the reasonable parent and who is not, which is helpful.

@Aloneinmanchester wow I think you really could be us a couple of years ago! I'm sorry you're dealing with it and hoping you can nip your situation in the bud now. We didn't know anything about parental alienation or (naively) that it was a thing, so therefore didn't know how to deal with it, the points I made above were the things we kind of picked up on the way and eventually looked into.

My SKs have had all sorts of tests that we always believed to be unnecessary for ADHD, dyslexia, ASD all pushed by ex so it was the same with wanting them to have special treatment.

Slightly different maybe but some friends of ours had an ex wife who bought Dad a puppy for father's day ("from the kids") knowing full well how terrified Dad's long term partner was of dogs. It was a way to score points with the kids because they wanted a puppy, she just didn't want one at her house. And even better for ex that it made the new partner so uncomfortable - they always said to us what on earth do we do: we get rid of a dog we never wanted, make Mum have it back and we're the bad guys in the situation, or the partner has to live in fear.

There is comfort in knowing you're not alone talking on here and in real life, but it is also so sad to see so many other people dealing with this sort of behaviour and that a parent cannot put a child's needs at the forefront of their mind and actions, instead it needs to be about winning all the time.

My god that puppy story is horrendous. How cruel for everyone, especially the SM, and also cruel towards a poor innocent animal, using it as a tool to hurt someone else out of spite.

I do feel better and less alone knowing there are others out there going through the same thing. It is very sad, I agree. We are very focused on putting the kids first. DP never rises to the snide comments and nasty emails which is good. I read them sometimes and my instinct is to just say fuck off but obviously that wouldn’t help the kids and would just play right into the hands of their mum.

My advice would be (I’ve been a SM for 9 years & have seen the damage PA does to children. I’ll give some examples below…..

Document everything you think is PA - dates, times, the event

If you need to involve the police do. Everyone will tell you it’s a family court matter and the police won’t get involved- but if you have police involvement (which we did once) then social services will get involved

Involve the school and ask if counselling is available

Make your concerns known to social services

Involve CAFCASS

After 10 years of PA - my OH now has no relationship with his daughter (now 16). She’s been completely poisoned by her bitter mother. Despite court orders, police involvement, counselling & SS involvement.

By the time everyone realised what was going in - it was too late. His daughter was almost 16 and everyone’s view was - the court order was useless and they couldn’t do anything as she was almost an adult.

Some examples of what the mother had done (it makes my piss boil when people say PA doesn’t exist)…..

When he left (due to her abuse) she told him (the father) if you leave me you won’t see the kids again (and she did all she could over the years to prevent contact).

Even after years of court orders and her being taken back to court for breaching the CO - it made no difference, she still stopped contact. Last time he took her to court the judge threatened to remove the kids from her. But the problem with the family court system is that you never get the same judge twice, so every time you start again.

The kids weren’t allowed to call him (their dad) ‘dad’, or ‘daddy’ - they were only allowed to refer to him as ‘him’ as she told the kids any other term upset her.

If she demanded money and he refused (despite the consent order being agreed years before). She would have the kids ring their dad (many times they were in tears) - and they would tell him they couldn’t visit him as mummy hadn’t got what she had asked for. And could he give it do they could see him.

When the Mesher order ended and she refused to sell the FMH (despite years before agreeing to the sale). She told the kids ‘he’ (their dad) was making them homeless. They were absolutely distraught. This was despite her getting £200k out of the sale.

Her boyfriend of 6 months came over to our house one day (with her) and in front of the children threatened to beat him (their dad) up. They both had to be removed by the police.

She agreed to a holiday to see the kids paternal grandparents. Flights were booked & the night before the kids phoned dad to say how excited they were. At midnight she sent an email to say the kids weren’t going - she had changed her mind. The kids when we saw them were so upset about no going.

All contact with paternal family members she did what she could to stop. Visits to grandparents she would stop contact. When a grandparent died she wouldn’t allow the kids to go to the funeral (the kids were 14 & 16 at the time). Contact with the godparents was refused (as they are related to the father).

When the kids were younger & it was agreed by the court their dad was ‘allowed’ to ring them at 6pm on set days. She wouldn’t answer the phone and if she did she would hold the handset & listen to all conversations. This only stopped when dad bought the kids mobile phones at 11. Even then - while at home the children weren’t allowed to phone & text dad while in her home.

I could go on and on…..

Sadly - the older girl (now 16) who is devoted to her mum now refuses to speak or see her dad. After years of her mothers poison being dripped in her ear she’s decided it’s easier not to see him.

The younger boy - now 14 has worked out (through counselling at school) what has gone on.

My advice would be to get as much help as you can. My OH didn’t know we’re to turn / what help was available and by the time SS / the courts actually did something about it, it was too late for his daughter.

Some women are so emotionally damaged that they don’t care about using their children as weapons. These women disgust me.

Good luck. It’s hard.

So much of that has happened and still is in out situation @NorthernSpirit .

The anxiety. It's awful. DSS1 is so enmeshed with his mum that we don't know where to start on trying to undo some of the damage she is doing. The kid is a nervous wreck and I don't think he knows which way is up. And now she is starting on DSS2. DH is in bits as he watches his relationship with them being-frighteningly rapidly-destroyed. And I'm in bits because I don't know how to help him

My husband is currently experiencing PA. This weekend coming should have been his weekend but now DSS isn’t coming so it marks 8 weeks since he last saw him. We’ve had weak reasons as to why he’s not coming and the not knowing is actually worse tbh.

DH messages everyday and sometimes waits a week for a response which could just be ‘IDK’ or an emoji. DH’s mum has tried to reason with the ex and DSS but there’s no movement, it’s awful. The ex is harassing him, using withheld numbers to ring. When they do speak, it’s just abuse. I hate it.

What age is he? Could you DH get a court order in place to see him?