SS behaviour advice

[Bannannaa]

DP has 2DC age 7 and 9. I have teenage DC age 15 and 17. We have lived together a year.

The youngest SD7 tends to be a frustrated stroppy tantrummer sometimes when she doesn’t get her own way but that’s dealt with quite well by DP. SD is also receptive to me helping out with this and we have made good progress with managing angry feelings like breathing exercises and understanding emotions. She also sometimes does have to do a time out to calm down and she will then understand why. SD loves my older DC and vice versa and has a warm relationship with them. SD is very helpful and considerate and will listen if you give her an explanation why she can’t do something.

DP’s eldest DC 9 doesn’t listen to anything anyone says, almost ever. You can say the DC’s name loudly, or go over and physically tap him on the shoulder, make eye contact and DC will just carry on with whatever they will doing. Even if you explain why they need to stop, they often wont stop unless physically removed. Or often they will stop until you aren’t looking and start doing it again. At the same time they never do anything you ask either (normal every day things).

DP will end up shouting at him out of frustration after plenty of warnings. DP is pretty much constantly tearing his hair out. SS is NT and intelligent and has no hearing problems. DP is always teaching about consent and other peoples feelings so it’s not like he isn’t trying. I also find myself getting very frustrated and often I have to leave the room because I know I am getting worked up when SS isn’t listening to me or anyone else.

My DC avoid SS9 as they say he is intensely annoying, as he won’t stop doing things when you say ‘no’ or ‘stop’. This can be physical acts too like touching, grabbing, tickling or teasing or trying to get into DC rooms. Last week he made them all upset by thinking it was funny to pretend to be trying to throw a big spider at them even when everyone told him to stop doing it, he had to be physically carried away and DP shouted at him in the end. They don’t like spending time with him, which is sad but I never force it and actively have to prevent him annoying them.

SS also never does anything you ask so will need to be told over and over to put shoes on, move out of the way or basically any daily tasks take 100 times longer as he talks and faffs so much and pretty much everything is on his terms so we are always late everywhere and frazzled.

IMO this feels like subtle controlling behaviour. by not doing what you ask, they are controlling the narrative, you will end up doing the job instead as it’s taking so long. With not listening to people who don’t consent, it’s cos it’s his agenda and it’s something he wants and he doesn’t WANT to stop. When you ask him why, he will just say he didn’t want to stop touching someone, he was just playing so he didn’t, or he doesn’t want to help out, so he isn’t going to.

I know he’s just a child and I have to keep telling myself that. He doesn’t seem to have good socialisation skills so a lot of his grabby behaviour is his way of playing. He plays with animals in the same clumsy, rough way and pays no heed to their body language either if they try to desperately escape him. I feel bad for him he’s constantly getting told off, it’s a stressful environment at times we just don’t know how to get him to learn.

At the DC’s mothers house, the step father has put in an extremely strict routine with a lot of rules. But SS9 is the golden child and apparently ‘never told off’ (according to them both) which upsets and SD7 as she feels like she is always getting told off. Their mum spends time gently explaining things to SS9 and he kinds of gets a hair ruffle and a pat on the head and she speaks to DP about things as if SS9 is still 3yo and still learning boundaries. Even DP’s parents are beyond frustrated with SS9 not listening to them either.

Apparently he is not like this at school or his DM’s (according to her anyway) but this can’t just be about me, as he’s been like this with DP when we didn’t even live together it’s just not getting better and he’s the same with his grandparents.

I’ve told DP I am considering moving out as it’s not fair on my DC to live like this with another child who invades their privacy and disrespects their boundaries on such a frequent basis. DP is not like this at all so it’s not something DP can change about himself to set a good example. I feel he needs some intervention but where do you start?

I'm sorry this sounds like a tough set up. I agree you need expert advice - I would suggest a family psychologist.

He needs a lot of help, that is clear. But for me it wouldn't be at the expense of my own children's childhood, especially at such an important time for them.

These aren't your issues to get to the bottom of, he has two involved parents.

Who will put your DC first if not you?

If by chance you guys have BUPA you may find it covers useful stuff. Sadly the waiting lists for any kind of NHS help are v long. Certainly long enough for more than one relationship to break up.

The Owl Centre online has a database you can use to find therapy in your area.

Listen to the ex wife. You describe her as a "gentle parent" but things got bad enough for her to leave her kids for a significant amount of time. You are dealing with behaviour and stresses out of the norm. You need help and to protect your own DC.

He was 4 when they split, mum left. She also had a big gap of choosing to not see them much at all for at least a year which I think will have had a big impact on them

I think this is a big part of the issue. She behaves well with mum because if he doesn't, she may go again. He behaves worse with you because he is testing to see whether you will leave.
I think I would get DH to take him out for the day- just the two of them. He's 9 so old enough for a grown up chat about how he behaves and why.

It's clear that at 4 the impact of the split would have been much greater on him than on his younger sibling.

If the other household are finding rules need to be very very clear and that SS has about the ability to understand boundaries of a typical 3 year old, I would take that intel seriously. As clearly your way isn't working.

Your older DCs need locks on their doors. A physical barrier or putting things out of reach is often better than "reasonable explanations" especially if the other party has a limited amount of comprehension.

Something else to consider -- SS may be hyper and hard to manage due to excess energy. DP could get up early doors Sat and Sun and take him for a run/bike ride/football. My DD can be positively evil when underexcercised.

This will also get him out of the teens' faces reliably and you can do something with the more compliant girl. Plus strengthen DP and SS's bond, which will be damaged by the shouting.

For the not getting ready issue, what happens if you set a hard deadline and if DSS isn't ready, you and the other kids leave without him and he stays home with his dad?

It's not an ideal long term solution, because it's taking time away from your DSD to spend with dad, but it might be better than what's currently happening, in which everyone else waits while your DP cajoles and then shouts at DSS. It's a natural consequence of his behaviour - and it stops him having a ready made audience for his behaviour.

Re the rules at the other house these are:
eat your meals
no shouting
no crying
no yelling
no getting out of bed in the night
no being rude

So none of these really apply to SS. He’s fine with these things and he doesn’t have emotional outbursts. The rules are all about manners really (and suppressing your emotions) SD7 is the one who struggles with them. They aren’t expected to do any chores and they don’t get punished for being late or messing around.

DP has in the past not taken him to things as he won’t get ready for them so he has had consequences. This morning DP said he would have to go to grandparents if he didn’t get ready so he did do it.

Sorry to be clear he's never had an absent dad, mum was not very good with contact for a year or so now she has 40-50% although for instance she would go away without the DC for a few holidays missing her contact days but DP never does so it ends up that it’s often more like 40 than 50%. Mum also works so step dad is very active in their upbringing. I’m not so much involved as DP is very hands on with them and doesn’t expect me to do things. I’m not judging her she had her own reasons for decisions but I don’t think it ever got explained to the DC as they were very young, and now it’s more normal so I think they assume all is fine

Honestly the more I read the more this boy is crying out for help ..

masking is really something it sounds like but you get all the shit - his safe space ..

My Ds has Asd - doesn’t understand body language so might laugh when he is been shouted at - he does this at school but equally might be missing what the obvious queues are ..
The reason I mention pda is that it is anxiety based so the simplistic tasks can be overwhelming like putting shoes on but also avoiding demands can reduce that stress . The way you approach things would be very different because like many parents dad reaches the point where shouting as he has repeatedly asked the same thing yet - shouting does not seem to help . It is dads built up frustration where with lots of kids it ok .. why on earth are they shouting .

he has gone through a lot transition from houses seem to be difficult for both children .

I

I think a starting point might be a Speech and Language assessment for the child to establish whether he can in fact understand what's being asked. Some kids have big differences in their receptive and expressive language. My DD for example is highly articulate but often doesn't really "get" what people mean especially if they use metaphor, analogy etc. This causes her a number of social issues.

I think any decent therapist is going to remark that a set up where one child is constantly in trouble at one house and the other, at the second house, is an absolute recipe for conflict and sibling rivalry!

Yes he does sound nasty and what about OPS kids.. They should put up and shut up should they

I don’t think he is nasty but either he is ND or something is not right somewhere!

They are both very fixated on name calling and today I called DP an idiot in jest/joke and not thinking they both gasped and said I was being mean to him and was being nasty so I used this as a chance to explain it wasn’t nice to hurt someone’s feelings and I was sorry to DP but it was also not ok to hurt someone physically or touch someone or do something to someone who says NO. They seemed to have zero comprehension of this was was baffling as DP and I are always banging on about it. Mum definitely is fixated more on verbal stuff than physical stuff. I also reiterated that DP needs to at least get SS hearing tested he agreed as he hasn’t since a baby. I didn’t want to bring up the topic of ND right now, it wasn’t the right time.

He gets PLENTY of explanations and the gentle stuff from our end too but there is some kind of disconnect. DP worries he’s too impatient but this Stuff would try the worlds most patient person. DP doesn’t like the imbalance and is always trying to connect with SS but SS knows he feels guilty about shouting at him so will keep saying ‘mum never shouts at me and you always shout at me’ even when DP is not getting cross, so it is kind of an emotional blackmail at times!

I would not believe that DS9 is well behaved at school. Ask his Dad to speak directly with the school to verify that.
Have his hearing checked.
Get him into seeing a professional. He needs intervention before he can make the most of his life.

I think before any improvements can be made - some assessment is needed. His behaviour sounds very like a little lad I know and he was diagnosed with sensory issues, ADHD and a few of the traits sound very close.

School never had a problem but his treatment of others was "off". Parents had ran themselves out trying all behavioural approaches.

Now he has a sensory diet, very strict on behaviour, and lots of activities and time away from sibs - for the sibs benefit. It seems to work .

I watched him this weekend without him knowing and I do think he is possibly sensory seeking. He cannot stand or sit still, whilst waiting for a public toilet he was clicking his tongue repeatedly whilst climbing mental railings and kind of entwining himself all over the rails, kind of draped over them. He then made this clicking noise in the car for a full 20 mins. It’s fairly (extremely) irritating. Also he’s never prepared to walk/move when you ask as he’s found something to touch or climb which takes up all his interest. Usually instead of putting his shoes on he will have found something else to fiddle with. It’s caused DP stress that a 9yo cannot put their own shoes on when asked or fasten a car seatbelt. DP isn’t a shouty person in life at all, I’ve never heard him get angry at anything else so I do think it’s sad that SS gets yelled at so much like this and I know DP doesn’t want to.

He also likes to lie his full body weight on people a lot. He has to be touching things. He will squeak a dog toy loudly repeatedly until you beg him to stop. He’s very articulate but I don’t think he has a good imagination. He kind of doesn’t really play much with toys in an imaginative way. He also eats quite oddly picking tiny bits of his food it can take over an hour to finish a meal.

Its possible he doesn’t have impulse control I did try to talk to him about it I said if you have an idea to do something, you need to ask yourself ‘should I do this’ but he either can’t or won’t - if you ask him why he shouldn’t do something he will tell you why, but he’s still done it anyway.

I think as he’s clearly very high functioning in many other ways this is going to be something that is missed unless his parents take some initiative. DP is not currently open to this idea that it’s sensory seeking.

My DC are just exasperated with how irritating it is for them, they want to be able to walk in and out of their rooms without locks on their doors! I did get him to stop opening the bathroom door from the outside cos this was an issue for a while. He’s just so overbearing and in their faces, DP and I having to constantly be watching whether he is annoying them all the time.

I’m not adverse to helping DP with a special needs child at all but as it’s unlikely anyone is going to take action to get an assessment and this isn’t going to change any time soon I am going to talk to DP about moving out for my DC sake. Luckily I can go back to my own house, it would just mean I have to sort out the practicalities (short term let). My DC know this isn’t something that’s anyone’s fault or SS, they don’t shout at him or anything but they didn’t ask for this life and I feel like it’s unfair so perhaps DP and I can reassess living together again in the future.

Yes that sounds like sensory seeking. The most useful assessment for that would be occupational therapy. The good news on that is it's possible to get it done privately reasonably fast (I know this as we did one for an EHCP in the spring). Not cheap of course but they would make recommendations to help him.

There are lots of relatively cheap things from fiddle toys to wobble boards and chewellery.

You need a proper lock on the bathroom door.

What's that quote, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?!

Maybe when your DP realises you are serious it may spur him into action. I suggest you start writing down your concerns.

DP’s has mum told him she thinks there is something more going on. We all had a really long chat about how this is not getting better and he’s soon going to have a larger, teenage version of SS on his hands and DP shouting is obviously not helping. Now I have begun to point out to DP when SS is sensory seeking and cannot keep still and is having issues focusing. Today he was meant to be doing something DP asked and he was either smacking something repeatedly or he was spinning around. DP also asked SS when they had quality time why he doesn’t listen and SS said there was too much going on in his head at one time. I said to DP listen to him, he’s probably telling you the truth.

DP is reluctant to bring this up with exwife, it’s always a hard thing. There is a lot going on there.

However DP is open to looking at different techniques of parenting in relation to ADHD.

One of your rules is no crying? Eat your meal? No shouting I sort of get but this really doesn't sound great for a struggling child. Children really should be able to cry and express emotions that aren't neat and tidy.

A good tip I got was "notice what they ARE doing".

So DD doing mad stuff, talking nonsense, fiddling with something but is actually brushing her teeth as I asked her to do a few minutes ago.

Rather than stop that, be quiet, put that down...

Hurray! Teeth!

We haven't managed to get places (so few dates offered) but our local authority does a course called New Forest parenting for ADHD. Maybe your LA has something. Does sound like DP needs a parenting course tbh.

I think they are the rules at their mums house not at the ops.

Definitely need to look in to getting an assessment, also, as a pp pointed out, it's worth looking up PDA (pathological demand avoidance). It might help you find strategies that enable you to get ss to do things that need to be done instead of it being a battle every time.

No these are not our rules in any way!