Should DH say something or just suck it up?

[Laurdo]

My DH and I are at a bit of a loss of what to do regarding some concerns we have about my 5yo DSD when she's at her mums.

Custody arrangements is 50/50 however we have her slightly more as we have her every Sunday for football training and mum drops her midweek day quite alot.

There have been concerns about DSDs wellbeing at her mum's for some time now. Nothing major but DH keeps a note of things just in case he ever needs it. Whenever we pick her up after a week at her mums she's shattered, dark rings round her eyes. We've had to cut matts out of her hair. She's been sent to nursery in dirty underwear and in pyjamas before. As she's gotten older she's able to tell us things. We never ask but she's openly told us that mum lets her stay up watching YouTube on the laptop in bed, she never gets a bath at mums, mum never brushes her hair. Not ideal but not having a bath isn't going to kill her. She's missed a lot of football training sessions when she's spent the night before at mums because she's simply too tired so it is starting to affect her hobbies and with her starting school in August we're worried it will affect her school work.

She gets a bad cough in the winter months and can be up all night coughing. She also has eczema. DH took her to the doctor and they said it could be asthma. She was prescribed inhalers and also given cream for her eczema. DSD mum binned the inhalers and apparently called the doctor to say DSD didn't have a cough at all. We were given more inhalers from the doctor which this time we just kept at ours. We got duplicate eczema creams so she had her own but she doesn't use it and DSDs eczema would be worse when she returned from her mum's. My DH has tried to speak to her about it a few times but nothing changes. My DH had requested a paediatric appointment where both parents could attend. They only sent the appointment letter to mum and she took DSD and only told DH afterwards. What she told DH was not what DSD told us. (I know she's 5 and we should take everything with a pinch of salt but she says things that were obviously wording from the doctor) Thankfully DH received a letter in the post regarding a further appointment for August, against it said the opposite of what mum had told DH and confirmed what DSD had told us. So at least that aspect of her care will hopefully be resolved come August.

DH went to collect her on Sunday. He messaged his ex to ask if he could pick her up a bit earlier and she said it shouldn't be a problem but she was out so to call 16yo DSS. DSD was out playing in the street when DH went to collect her at 3pm. Her clothes were stinking of smoke and she said she'd had nothing to eat all day and was starving.

Her mum seems to be out a lot. She doesn't work but is doing a course at college which is the same time as DSDs nursery hours. Of course the 16yo is old enough to look after his sister but he's left to babysit a lot and will just give her cereal or snacks when she's hungry. He can barely look after himself and it's been a struggle to try and prepare him for adult life and leaving school in the summer. I certainly wouldn't leave him to watch her any more than an hour or expect him to sort her meals.

My question is.... What do we do? Mum is high conflict and has narcissistic personality traits. My DH feels like he's stepping into a wasps nest whenever he needs to discuss something with her.

Contact is minimal and restricted to absolutely necessary only. We'd like to improve things for DSD if possible before she starts school and ASAP really as it's horrible knowing she's not being cared for properly.

We'd like to look at the possibility of having DSD with us more often as we feel she's really thriving and happy at our house and we offer much more stability. DH isn't sure how to approach this as she's likely to kick off if she feels her parenting is being questioned in any way. Even if having her DD suited her she'd say no just to spite DH. I'm not sure whether they should do mediation again. The last time she was very volatile and shouted over the top of DH. The mediator wasn't great and intervening.

So what do we do? Do we risk bringing it up with her and the potential backlash from it or do we just suck it up and be grateful that at least DSD has a roof over her head and is fed at her mum's?

My parents foster so have some experience working with SS and it seem the bar for what's ok is pretty low.

Sadly, this is true. I think I'd be tempted to try other approaches before involving SS. I don't think SS would do much, I think this would need to be about going for custody through the courts.

My preference would be to speak to mum and try to help improve the situation but you indicate that isn't possible.

I'd document absolutely everything, with photos where appropriate.

I'd also try to start building up more time with her slowly- just offering to have her when mum needs and asking can she stay one more day using excuses like she's really tired or you've got something special on.

If you can get to the point where you are the main carers amicably it will make any next steps easier.

We've actually already been doing what you suggested.

The court ordered arrangement is Sunday to Sunday. Swap over at 6pm Sunday. Mum has her every Tuesday, we have her every Thursday.

Mum often just asks if we can keep her Tuesday and we will always say yes unless we absolutely can't. We also collect her from mums at around 11am on Sundays because we take her to football training. Drop off when she's going back to mums is still 6pm. We were considering asking to have her Saturday nights as she was missing a lot of football training on Sundays due to being up late on Saturdays. This is probably something she'd go for as she often goes out at the weekend.

She was due to pick DSD up today for an overnight but asked to drop it which DH said was fine. She's picking her up for 3 hours for a birthday party on Friday instead. She often asks to switch days, drops the Tuesday but then doesn't arrange to have her another day. We never chase it as we're happy for DSD to have an extra day here.

I would try to accelerate this (gently). Maybe you could have a few things in a row that require her coming at the start of the weekend and see whether it naturally becomes habit?

I think you can perhaps afford not to involve SS/courts until she starts school, when mum might be happy to have someone doing all the early mornings and school runs (and paying for uniform) and you might bring up a 5/2 night split.

Maybe after a while she'd even do every other weekend?

In the meantime it might be worth getting legal advice with the evidence you do have about how likely you are to get full custody.

Can you find an activity on a weeknight that Dad takes her to every week and she ends up stopping over from?

We've just started her at a new gymnastics on a Friday so we could ask just to keep her after that and potentially just all the way through to Sunday since she has football on the Sunday.

Has your DH got PR? If yes he can claim parental rights and not return her to Mum's in best interest.

Yes he has PR. I was thinking he could do that but I wouldn't want us to get into trouble.

First step: make an appointment with the nursery manager and DSD's keyworker. Explain everything you have explained here and ask them to start keeping a daily log of DSD's appearance, behaviour l, mannerisms and any concerns they have.

This is create a second source of evidence to show how when she is with you, she is clean and well cared for bit when she is with mum, she is dirty and hungry.

Ask them to talk to DSD about what she does at mums when mum is out. Or even when mum is home. They can record that too.

Keep up with the log your end. Just things like 11/04/23: dsd arrived with soiled clothing (try to get pictures as evidence) write down anything DSD says that flags safeguarding issues.

But your first part of call is working with her nursery and then her school. Once she goes up in Sept.

Just to add. It's a lengthy process but it's a solid plan and it does eventually work.

Keep everything so once DSD is grown, and potentially had attachment issues or anxiety due to the neglect she experienced half the time, with Mum - She'll be able to see how much you faught for her and how much you noticed and most importantly, how much you cared, could be incredibly healing. - not saying this will happen. But the risk is increased due to her situation.

Love bomb that little one so she knows, even when she's not with you, that she is important.

Thank you. We'll definitely be doing this. I suspect they may already have some issues recorded.

Speak to the school about your concerns they will have likely picked up on certain behaviours when she's at her dms. You can also contact social centres. It's clearly a safeguarding issue.

Yes do this.

I would mention it to school and see if they notice any pattern. Before notifying SS. It will give you additional information to tell social services so you have some evidence other than your own

It would be piss poor on your DHs part NOT to involve social services.

Matts in her hair, unwashed, unfed, being sent to childcare in dirty pyjamas? Him being scared of his ex doesn't matter. He needs to grow some balls and sort this for his daughters sake, she isn't being adequately cared for.

Also could he try to teach her how to care for her own hair? Or make sure he sees her every other day so he can do that and the baths?

He's not scared of his ex she just doesn't listen and she does things in retaliation to spite him, regardless of it's affect on DSD. She previously withheld access for 2 months because she didn't get her own way (which there were zero legal consequences for). We had booked a holiday and she had agreed DSD could go then withdrew consent the week before stating that she was worried he was going to kidnap her and not come back. I don't know if she has a genuine fear that he'll take DSD away from her or if she just did it to be difficult.

Ideally we'd like her to agree to us having her more before involving the authorities so he has to approach it carefully. If he goes in all guns blazing we'll get nowhere. In my experience the bar is extremely low with SS and although we think she's being neglected 1. We'd have to provide clear evidence and 2. She's not underweight and has a roof over her head.

Of course if we have to we'll go down that route but preferably we'd like to get something sorted without.

Yeah she brushes her own hair now. She has a little routine in the morning where she makes her own breakfast, brushes her teeth, brushes her hair, gets herself dressed and makes her bed. We wanted her to be a bit more independent generally and would encourage this even without the situation at her mums, but of course this now means she can care for herself at her mums too.

You sound like a great SM - well done for standing up for both these children.

Is the mum having some kind of breakdown? I ask because I don't understand how basic needs such as keeping a young child clean and fed are not happening. It's so, so basic. Has DH asked her about this? And then there's the lack of sleep routine and other things you mention.

It looks like you and DH having her as much as possible (ideally living with you) would be a great solution.

Well done to your DH, too, for protecting his son's free time.

DH said she's never been a great mother. DH did the bath and bedtime routine when they were babies and implemented all the boundaries which she would often over rule.

She definitely has some mental health issues but she always has done. DH left because the physical violence from her escalated and she assualted him infront of DSD. I think she struggles to cope because she hasn't implemented routine or boundaries. She's complained DH about DSD being terribly behaved, not sleeping etc. We have no issues with her behaviour and she sleeps from 7.30 - 7.30 in her own bed. Sometimes we don't realise how well behaved she is until we experience other people's kids of the same age. She's honestly a wee dream and we are very lucky.

She sounds lovely, op and a credit to you and DH. Children feel safest and happiest with boundaries.

I only have experience with the nursery/school aspect with issues such as these. The nursery will be very glad to work with you as they want what's best for DSD and engaged parents are so much easier to work with than parents who aren't that bothered so you and Dh will become the first port of call when she is poorly at school or has an accident, dress up days etc.

Also give them an inhaler and make them aware of any other medical issues. Going forward, assume the mum keeps them out the loop. So frequent, good communication with her nursery and you guys is important and will help.

They may advise you (and I would too) to tread very slowly and very carefully with DSD's mum. 50% of influence in DSD's life is better than less which the mum has form for witholding.

They will also want a chance to work with Mum too to implement any new care plans. Eg, making sure mum in dressing her for nursery and brushing her hair. They may be able to raise their concerns for DSD with mum themselves (and log that they have done so)

Wether it's right or not, it is their job to do this rather than DH's.

They then will keep the log and will advise you on the next steps on when other agencies (such as SS) can get involved and/or how to get DSD with you full time.

But until you have those next steps, it's really important to keep mum on side and not give her any cause to withhold DSD (such as attacking her parenting skills - which I know you're not - it's clear it's neglect, but that is how DSD' mum will see it and then will make things difficult)

And you're right. SS will not remove DSD u less there is an immediate risk to life. And there is not. When DSD's mum is not present, she is using a babysitter (as wrong was that is for your DSS) and while, yes I agree it is neglect, it's so hard to prove.

But don't worry too much. You only need to get it right 30% of the time for a child to be a healthy, well regulated human.

You and DH give her 50% so long term, she is in no danger. But I completely understand the frustrations of wanting to give her 100%.

Keep us updated on the meeting with the nursery. Continue that relationship with the school. You're doing great.

She's honestly a wee dream and we are very lucky

She is also very lucky to have you and DH (and DSS love his heart)

Thank you. That is really helpful. We will definitely get the nursery involved.

I'm quite friendly with the staff and so is DH. His friend has an easter bunny costume so DH arranged for the Easter bunny to go to the nursery. I make cakes and biscuits with DSD to hand in when they have things on, hand stuff in for their Halloween party etc. We got married recently and the nursery staff where asking to see photos etc and would ask all about it.

They did a stay and play a few months back where parents could book a 30 minute slot to go and play with their child. DH and I went together. DSDs mum was supposed to go the day before but didn't turn up. When we turned up for our session the nursery manager said "mum didn't turn up (eye roll), but at least you're both here for her". They generally call me is DSD is sick because I'll go get her straight away. Mum has previously told them she's still at college and won't leave to get her.

From speaking to the teachers DSD seems to tell them quite a lot about her home life (as 5yos tend to do, usually with a bit too much detail), so I'm sure they have a decent picture about how things are at both houses.

She also cries a lot and tantrums when mum drops her off but skips in singing with me and DH. One of the teachers said to DSD as she skipped in with DH one morning "why do you always cry with mum but are happy with dad?"

Honestly I feel a bit annoyed with ourselves now for not involving the nursery sooner.

Thank you. They are great kids and thankfully seem to be turning out to be good kind people.

For the people suggesting social services and working with nursery, is this based on professional and/or personal experience because I disagree this is the right approach.

Even if social services open an assessment, they'll still direct it back to the child's father to safeguard her. He has PR so he can keep the child with him and go to court for an emergency order.

Definitely do everything in your power to get this sorted OP. My parents split when I was 6. I would go to my father's on weekends. I would wake up alone and couldn't reach the heating. He was sleeping with a hangover. I would grab a blanket and eat digestive biscuits and drink squash. I had food at least! Your DSD isn't even getting fed bless He would get off his face and blast music until it woke me, I would go downstairs at about 2-4am and ask him to turn it off and he wouldn't. He wouldn't dress me or brush my hair or allow toys as they were "from IT'S house", He called my mother "It". One day, I said to my mother before going to his house "do I HAVE to go to daddy's?". She said no. And I never went there again. Years later I asked why she didn't stop me going there before. She said she wanted it to be my choice. I was 6. I have resented both parents for this for too long. Please be a voice for the child. She may well feel she doesn't have a say in whether she goes to her mum's house or not. Therefore the child just puts up with it, all while dropping massive hints at the better parent/s, hoping something will change but not really understanding any of it.