Parental Alienation

[Lucky34]

Hi there

We are experiencing some real challenges with the ex & finding the behaviour quite destructive.

I'm just wondering if anyone has experienced trying to evidence parental alienation behaviours & what you did to provide "proof".

We think we are going to have to challenge some of these now but unfortunately unless we can evidence it, I can only imagine what we will be up against. The ex seems to have little to no insight on her behaviours.

Any advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated. As you can see, I am losing sleep over this & it is impacting our life in a very real way.

Sorry, no advice. I empathise though, my ex is a master at parental alienation & unfortunately there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, it's almost impossible to prove.

Yes, it's an uphill struggle everyday & the ex seems determined to fracture anything that is positive within our household. It's so demoralising to watch it & have little control over it. Tonight I have ruminated over it all night & got nowhere, except made myself upset and no doubt it will impact my family today.

@Lucky34 you need a poster called @redwingboots she is amazing with all things family courts.

Texts on DSC phones, emails, family counselling notes ect. And family courts take parent alienation v v seriously.

Thank you.... I really appreciate your help.

Détail all the examples of bad mouthing and parental alienation. As a previous poster said. Family Courts are really aware of the dangers of one parent constantly bad mouthing and making life challenging for the other parent, particularly if it is the non resident parent.
Be strong, good luck

What is the alienating parent doing?
How old is the child/children?
Is there an "end game" for the other parent? In my (limited) experience they know exactly what they are doing but don't care about the impact on the child, only that they get what they want.

Sorry you're going through this, it really is an awful experience

I'm so sorry OP, this is one of those things that happens so often yet is very difficult to prove. and it puts the non-resident right into the crossfire if they try to correct it, fanning the flames even more.

In our case DH's kids were told all the time that they couldnt have nice things because their dad didnt pay mum enough (he paid maintenance +++ and Exw barely worked). Over time the eldest daughter learned to channel her mum and I think still to this day believes that her dad failed her somehow (for the record he was/is an amazing dad and fought hard for contact whilst the ex weaponised the kids.

DH picked his battles very carefully and spent a lot of time discussing any misconceptions (which is difficult to do without losing your rag) but he picked his battles very carefully.

The only consolation I can give is that over time children learn to question parental alienation but it's horrible to be in the middle of. But yes, deffinitely start to record dates, times, places, words etc

It primarily seems to be bad mouthing our home (I've posted before about the DD saying statements that clearly they've heard & would otherwise never use) & limiting contact to the point that she would rather the child is anywhere but with his dad, even though we continually ask what childcare plans are made & that we are available.

This mainly seems to be to ensure that maintenance stays within a certain limit & our time does not encroach on her monthly spend. I wouldn't mind so much but we never see it reflected in anything for the child.

The standard of parenting is also an issue with us needing to endure basic self care & hygiene is maintained during our contact.

I'm beyond frustrated and it feels so futile documenting things when there never seems to be an end of it.

This is really hard.

I’ve watched parental alienation from the side lines for 9 years and to be frank, the courts. CAFCASS or social services don’t know how to deal with it.

Some examples in our case:

Mother (RP) badmouthing dad. He’s referred to as ‘that useless piece of shit’ or ‘useless excuse of a father’. This is a man who has never missed a maintenance payment, pays well over the CMS amount and has had to fight to see his own children.

Despite a very clear contact order - contact is stopped as a way of controlling & getting what the mother wants.

The kids aren’t allowed to call their dad ‘dad’, ‘daddy’ etc (as it’s too upsetting for her). The kids are only allowed to call their dad ‘him’. I’m only allowed to be called ‘her’.

She said the kids could go on holiday with dad (she agreed in writing). The night before pick up going to the airport- the kids said they were excited & their cases were packed. At midnight she emailed my OH to say she had changed her mind and the kids weren’t going. Because of this the courts got involved and they involved social services. She was given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

The kids will be due over (as per the contact arrangement) and she’ll get them to ring dad to say they aren’t coming as he doesn’t pay mummy any money (they are usually crying). This isn’t true - she gets £775 a month and a payment has never been missed. It’s because she’s asked for more money & he’s refused.

The kids aren’t allowed to bring any Christmas or birthday presents they get at ours home as it upsets her.

When the FMH was sold (which the EW had agreed to in court years before). She told the children ‘he’ was making them homeless. She got £250k from the sake I might add.

When my DSD was 16 she was caught breaking into her dads phone. It transpired she had been breaking into it for months and taking screen shots of our personal messages & sending them to her mum. She was also taking pictures of our bank statements (hidden in a folder in a draw) and sending them to her mum. That daughter now refuses to visit or speak to her dad. The years of poison dripping into her ear has worked.

The police & social services were involved in this last incident. Again - they did very little. Mum was ‘asked’ not to badmouth dad. Social services said because she was 16 there was nothing they could do.

It’s so sad to watch this - when my OH has tried to be a good dad, fought to see his own kids and spent thousands of pounds doing it.

Who does this to their own kids. I really hope that one day they realise what she has done to them.

My advice would be to document everything and speak to social services the children’s school about what is going on and ask for their help. In my OH’s case he asked for help too late.

Good luck.

Oh my, I'm speechless at what you have experienced but also scared as a lot of what you are going through is exactly what we are experiencing.

We have decided to start documenting everything that is happening in a dedicated journal and will update it weekly on what issues we had.

There is definitely a pattern to the behaviour & it is when we are having a settled time at our home & DD is happy with us. This seems to result in trying to then limit the child staying with us.

We are also now documenting any issues we find regarding how parenting of the child is going as we are now the bad guy because we try to discipline if there is bad behaviour.

We definitely have issues with the DD asking about money and questioning things she shouldn't care about.... obviously we realise where this is coming from. But why would you even poison your child like that and take away their innocence? It just upsets me as I would never do that.

Thank you so much for sharing your examples as it has made it so much clearer on what we need to document.

I only hope we don't get to the point that DD is 16 and decides to opt for what her mum says as it would be devastating for my DH & me.

I think there is some advice on here Podcast

My experience has been that the Family Court dont give a shit about Parental Alienation. At all. Regarded as parenting differences and they are not the third parent.

My DC would come back to me and tell me that their paternal family referred to me by my surname. As in what has dog done now? How dare dog do that? etc. I'm their mum. Luckily for me as DC have got older they have seen and heard the differences between the families and can understand what might be a better approach. Eg my family would ask SC how are your [parental] grandparents doing (using the correct names)? Or my DC will see the difference in meals/snacks/independence etc. We do OK.

It was more serious when they were younger. Really serious. I kept being consistent. I'm a single parent and my parenting was the best it could be. Ex did all he could not to pay maintenance. He would argue otherwise. So as usual on here I am wary of the new partner/wife and their claims. Very often not true at all.

@spongedog firstly I'm sorry you went through that but just to challenge one tiny point (I'm not meaning to be nit picky I promise) the courts actually act as a 3rd party that has a unbiased view on what's best for the child regardless of parental differences.

Years ago parent alienation did happen but your right it wasn't addressed but it's certainly taken more seriously of late.

The problem is saying parent alienation slagging off each other is one thing, but parent alienation is actively encouraging the kids not to see their other parent but various means. I have in the past called my ex a 🛎 end in front of my child. That is different to a systematic process of not just speaking badly of the other parent but of purposely trying to destroy the relationship. It's still fairly new so RP are seen to have more access to the children therefore more chances to influence the kids opposed to EOW parent. It's abuse of power on steroids.

That said your ex sounds like a asshat for trying to get out of maintenance and calling you names and being nasty. I'm really glad your kids see it for what it is.

So sorry this is happening to your family, it really is all consuming and heartbreaking. P.A is the ultimate devastating tool to inflict the most painful and damaging attack on a parent.
In my case, I told CAFCASS during divorce proceedings that I was concerned about p.a, gave examples and said it was only going to get worse as I was slowly being cut out of my DS life. Nothing was done, only my solicitor said don't worry we will make the contact order watertight until he leaves school 😂
Fast forward 12 years and my ex's work is complete. I barely have any contact with my son and he tells me nothing of his life (he's 18 next month), I don't even know where my son works, it's like he thinks I'm a mad woman who will stalk him. I don't have his mobile or house number, I have only his gaming account to message him on.
The very 1st time I knew the way it was going to go was when my son was 6 years old and broke his arm in school at 1pm, we lived in a rural area so he had to go to a hospital an hour away, by the time he had xrays, a cast etc, it was 9pm by the time they drove past my house- that was when I was told about it, my ex knocked on my front door, in the dark, with the engine still running and said "he's broken his arm but he's fine, just getting him home", that was that. It broke my heart imagining him wondering why for all those hours, his mum wasn't there at the hospital with him to help soothe his fears. A nice set up of an example of "your mum doesn't care" though.
At 7yrs old my ex christened our son in secret, all his family there, none of mine as I was never told. I only found out 2 years later by complete accident through a friend of a friend. That was a perfect fit for my ex's words to our son "your mum's always too busy with her own life for you".
I've given my son 3 mobile phones over the years, soon as he's at my ex's they are switched off, all have been "lost". For his 13th and 16th birthdays, my ex allowed him to meet me in a lay-by to give him his birthday presents, ex stayed there again with engine running. My (private settings) Facebook page appeared to have been checked for pictures of my son and I, and he was told "oh, playing happy families with your mother are you" whilst showing him a picture of us together. I stopped using my Facebook at all but damage was done- all my pictures with my son from age 8 he hid his face behind something or he's wearing sunglasses or his hand covering his face. I'm still astonished to this day at the creativity and depth of cruelty that my ex came up with so many ways to destroy my relationship with our son, I never thought he had it in him. I was a good and loving mum, I don't think my son even remembers before I split with his father, his memories seem to have been replaced with his father's description of me, a crazy, selfish and uncaring woman. It's not one thing that points out p.a it's the drip, drip of numerous little poisonous acts over many years that causes the damage.
Finally, when he was 14yrs old, I got a sense that I was causing my son too much stress and anxiety trying to fight for our relationship, I could see that if he had little do with me, then that was less hassle that he was getting at home with his father, less worry of being questioned or told off for even mentioning my name. Time will tell if I have made a grave mistake but I stopped fighting and left the door open for him. Now I hear from him maybe once a month, he tells me about a TV programme he's watched or a new computer game hes playing, and although I ask him he hardly gives any details of things that are happening in his life, I desperately want him to share his life with me, I'm so very proud of him. He video calls me late at night on occasion, I never want the calls to end but they do, and abruptly when his father comes home.
I have no advice to give you because I failed miserably in stopping p.a happening even when I saw it coming, nobody listens , nobody cares and my son will bear the worst scars of all. All I hope is that one day he will want a relationship with me and we can rebuild our own story again, that he will get a chance to see that I've always been here as his loving mum.
Lots of luck and prayers that you can protect your family, I hope courts actually do take p.a more seriously now ⚘

Thank you all for sharing, as disheartening as it is to read, it is always good to know we are not alone.

I think the way everyone describes the constant erosion & intention to disrupt our family life is what I just find exhausting. I do not understand why someone would be so willing to invest so much time into being so vindictive. Surely their time would be better spent building a solid relationship with their child & ensuring they are emotionally strong & resilient. I just find it all so futile as ultimately it is the child that misses out & is affected long term.

I find that if you point out any of the destructive behaviours you are met with gaslighting, threats & then refusal to interact.

It just takes up so much energy & is a drain on us. Xx

I would caution against claiming parental alienation. Its increasingly discredited as a debunked theory that lacks scientific credibility and is mired in gender bias. It's now recognised as a tool of domestic abusers to continue to perpetuate their abuse. I believe it's been dropped from the recent Domestic Abuse Act for the above reasons.

And of course the concept was invented by a paedophile apologist.

@Willyoujustbequiet let's be very clear on what your saying on the topic and why. Simply put it is legally it's very hard to tell what's parent alienation from normal reaction to a situation with domestic abuse.

It's been discredited as a syndrome per because abusers who have been proven in court to show DV has taken place still get access to the children they have been abusing which is wrong iMO.
Cafcass has guidelines below for anyone that cares. It's not got no scientific background it's "soft science" because the impact hasn't been fully examined and they certainly didn't look at how it would impact children in relation to cases of DV. Freud had some pretty whacky ideas about his mother but actually quite a lot of sensible ones as well. Let's not use emotive language without critical thinking.

www.cafcass.gov.uk/grown-ups/parents-and-carers/divorce-and-separation/what-to-expect-from-cafcass/alienating-behaviours/

The Domestic Abuse Practice Guidance in the CIAF includes the following advice:
“Ensure you have clearly distinguished between harmful conflict, domestic abuse and bond breaking or alienating behaviours which lead to resistance to contact.

That said - what op is taking about isn't a case of DV with kids involved so what you put is moot point. We all know that kids are sponges, loyalty bonds exist something doesn't have to be a syndrome to know it's harmful to do to children. I obviously don't think abusers should have access to their children and think it's mad that because PA is put in domestic abuse law, it's created a certain amount of rigidness and legal loop hole that's opened it up for people who abusers to use it as a defence. I have seen this happen in my work with a DV charity on both side of the fence.

But it's insulting to then say it doesn't happen and it has no validity what's so ever. Abuse can be perpetuated but both men and women but it happens in general in many different ways. Just because one women makes a false rape claim and lies about it, doesn't mean there aren't other valid rape claims. It needs to be investigated, not dismissed out of hand and proven with mitagating factors taken into account (DV is a large factor here) by a court and a judge.

It's nuanced and of course I'm sure you didn't mean comment to try and discredit or insinuate the women on this threads partners are domestic abusers subtlety suggesting it's all made up in there head because you read a guardian article on it. Being part of a blended family means you get very used to nuances and if your going to reference and regurgitate a article or several it's worth explaining the context of the information such as this has a massive background in domestic violence. Context. Is. Important.

If anyone wants to read the article- it's in the opinions section link below

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/21/abused-uk-children-family-courts-parental-alienation

"The phrase – based on a “syndrome” that has been internationally discredited and is banned from use in family courts in some countries... parental alienation is still defined as controlling or coercive behaviour in the draft statutory guidance."

So it's still part of legal guidance so still being reviewed.

Sorry for all the links, just want all the correct info out there

I do not understand why someone would be so willing to invest so much time into being so vindictive. Because harming/punishing the .other parent is more important to them then their DC. A friend's Ex is doing this, he cheated, he wanted the divorce but he's still doing everything he can to mess up her life and he doesn't care about the effect on their children. He's so angry at her. According to him the cheating, the emotional and physical abuse, the divorce he wanted, is all HER fault.

@pitchforksandflamethrowers I believe it's been removed from the statutory guidance - happened this week. Excellent step forward, if you ask me. Awful defence tactic for abusive men and total pseudo science.

@OakTreex odd there isn't any news articles on it that said I'm on mat leave so I very well may be incorrect or not up to date as I would be.

That said again instead of removing it completely there should have been a clause put in re dv cases.

Let's not pretend that parents don't do PA where no dv is happening because they are bitter and happy to put their own needs and emotions above their children's best interests. This board can be a good example of the vindictive of humans
*
No good parent will do this to their children. Unfortunately it does happen and it's children who suffer.*

@LunaAndHerMoonDragons my friend suggested it to me when I split up with my ex who had cheated as a way to get back at him and make sure he regretted doing it.

I told her that I would never do that to my DD. Baffling some people think it's ok.

@pitchforksandflamethrowers don't know if this will work but I saw the news on Women's Aid Twitter and also The Court Said here: www.facebook.com/390567931718616/posts/pfbid02jheLhWsaHNq5Mdr5wRw1WwxN8H323wReaWhVxAPDbFKxAu23gQaUrZ7R4pg1BGe3l/?d=n

I can't comment I'm afraid, I'm struggling too much as a DA victim in the court process to wish to 'see the other side' of parental alienation clearly.

@OakTreex the thing is abusers use anything that will allow them to continue doing what they want (dv on one side and PA on the other both are ways of maintaining control and forms of abuse) the problem with abusers but they hide in plain sight and it's usually a long and painful process to prove either or both things. The law in my opinion needs changing.

I have been were you are right now luckily not with my exHB but it's the reason I got into DV bono work, I was once a client, so I get it. These threads must be v hard read but it's taken me years to realise that anyone who flex's that control muscle are the bad guys, that said if they wore a sign it would be helpful for all involved.

I hope you find peace, and just a gentle reminder that not everyone is a arse hat although when your in it. It does feel that way 💐

I'm so sorry you (and others) are experiencing this. PA is something that my (abusive) ex has wielded at me since we split, purely because I've tried to change a ridiculously inconsistent contact arrangement that is dictated by him to me, into a every other weekend + midweek arrangement that actually provides him more time. Apparently because I have my son during the week (whereby I work full time and DS is at school) I am somehow trying to monopolise and control my ex. Of course I'm not, I'm just sick of having to communicate with him every month about what he wants - he's chosen to have less contact and pretends it's because of work schedule which is total bullshit, but there we go.

My ex interrogates our DS about "where he wants to be" (i.e.; with Mum or Dad) and has "recorded" him (I've not seen /heard this) saying he wants to be with his Dad. Ex claims I'm a useless and negligent parent because I apparently won't work with him to combat DS anxieties (none of which are major, despite my exes wailing email about how he's been damaged by my MH) but it's very hard to work with someone who sends you ranting emails which seek to continue the abuse. All of these have been sent to my solicitor, DV service and the school (as he brought up several allegations of my responsibility around school) and I'm on the brink of applying for a non-molestation to stop them from happening. Ex's girlfriend (who he moved in with, and her kids, after 3 months) facilitates this and has threatened me via a troll account. Ex surrounds himself with sycophants who buy into his demented logic and rally round to bad mouth me and my family, which is ironic considering he always loved my family (they provided continuous support to him during his struggles) and support his malicious allegations to the police/SS about me. DS hasn't said specifically what these things are, probably because it's done just out of earshot but his behaviour toward family members which was very loving has changed. Ex was also a big fan of bad mouthing his previous ex (his eldest's mother) around my DSS so I know he has form for it.

However, I know when we eventually end up in court, based on the allegations ex has alluded to in his emails, he will try and devise up some cock and bull scheme to accuse me of parental alienation. Despite my exes actions towards me both during our relationship and particularly since, I have always been very encouraging to my DS over seeing him, even when he didn't want to. I've spoken fondly about my ex, reassured DS about the changes my ex has put him through (introducing his girlfriend after less than two months) and we talk openly and freely about ex in a positive way all the time. In contrast, ex refers to me not by name but "mother" and has said he refuses to bring me up in conversation and shuts down any mention of me when DS is with him

To be honest, I have no real advice. I'm hoping my DS will see my ex for what he is when he's older - fickle, selfish, rude and only interested in DS when it suits him, just like he's been his entire life.