Parental Alienation

[Lucky34]

Hi there

We are experiencing some real challenges with the ex & finding the behaviour quite destructive.

I'm just wondering if anyone has experienced trying to evidence parental alienation behaviours & what you did to provide "proof".

We think we are going to have to challenge some of these now but unfortunately unless we can evidence it, I can only imagine what we will be up against. The ex seems to have little to no insight on her behaviours.

Any advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated. As you can see, I am losing sleep over this & it is impacting our life in a very real way.

Yes. I am entirely the figment of some nonce’s imagination.

Or acceptable collateral damage in the battle of the sexes.

@AlienatedChildGrown

I'm sorry for your experience. I don't mean to suggest it doesn't happen on an individual basis.

Just that the tide is turning against the concept as a whole. You only have to look at MRA sites to see it's been hijacked by abusive men and the family court and Cafcass themselves are aware of it. It was dropped from the Act due to the backlash.

Thank you @pitchforksandflamethrowers

I have to give evidence in both criminal and family proceedings and be questioned about the abuse over several days. Both social services and the police advised me to not allow direct contact with the abuser, and I know if I had ignored that and offered it, I'd be accused of failure to safeguard and prevent child witnessing abuse - but now I'm accused of alienation instead! It feels like a no win. I actually offered indirect contact before court began but ex abused it and used it to harass and stalk me so it couldn't continue.

So the PA defence is a bit raw for me although I'm sure there are cases where a parent tries to manipulate a child against the other.

It is hard to know what to call it, if parental alienation is becoming challenged as a principle. In a situation I am aware of the mother has stopped all contact with the father (there was a long break during lockdown which is a long story, but she has since refused any access), and the children are now saying they don’t want to see their father. The children are under 10, and the courts really don’t seem to be able to help break the deadlock.

It’s been entirely hijacked by adults focused entirely on adult agendas. We are just the parley that gets sprinkled on top to tart up the dish.

Type parental alienation resources into any search engine. If you are accusing or accused you can find plenty of places to talk, get support/advice, commiserate. Lots of groups, associations.

If you were the kid. Not so much. We get picked up when we are useful weapons for or against a claim. And dropped just as fast when back to the real, important business about talking about how the adults in the equation feel, via the lens they deem to be the “real issue”.

I understand that PA is challenging to deal with when there is a history of DV. Then I can see how it can be used as a means to control

But what about when there is no history of DV, instead there is an ex who is so bitter & has made it her mission to try punish & discredit my DH. This has been done by bad mouthing him to friends, his family etc. when this has failed or not gotten the results she had hoped for, then the PA has been ramped up. Every communication is twisted & her behaviours are "in response" to us. However if we set a toe out of line she goes to her lawyer to "document" it. It just takes up so much time and energy to try have a normal conversation & try come to a normal arrangement for the child.

How do you document that the mother would rather have anyone else look after the child, even though we have stated over & over that we would happily look after him as we feel it's better he is with one parent rather than be shipped out to anyone who will have him? She refuses to tell us anything & has stated she will not ask us to look after him. We hear third hand from DD when we see her.

I feel that it's never ending & unfortunately I can see the impact it is having on DD. It impacts our relationship & also I believe it is unsettling for DD. We try not to interrogate DD but as nothing is communicated to us in relation to DD, we do have to ask some questions just so we know what is actually happening in her life.

My DSC's were victims of parental alienation from an emotionally abusive DM. Would be ok with us to our faces and then we would find out low level stuff to start with 'your scared of daddy and final aren't you', 'don't tell daddy about xyz as he will be really angry with mommy' this progress as they got older to them being told that if they told that mom had passed out drunk after school then they would be taken off her and she may as well kill herself if they aren't there. That I had physically attacked one of them - the incident as described to me would have left actual scars and meant that DM would have had to seek medical attention for the DSC in question (DSC didn't remember incident even though would have been about 8/9 when it happened but asked me 3 years ago about it as it was the last thing that they could not reconcile).

They never told us this was going on as they loved their DM very much and were scared of what would happen to her.

As it is their DM has no contact with DSD or her DGC as she doesn't want her DM to get the opportunity to poison them.

DS moved in with us at 15 and has seen his DM 3 times since (he is 18 in 2 weeks).

OP there are various tactics your DH can use but he needs to remember every time he communicates with her (or her lawyer) she will twist his behaviour, therefore he needs to be aware he can't control her, limit his communication with her and not react to her behaviour.

In regards to other people looking after his child it doesn't work like that. Either parent can choose who they like to look after the child in their time as long as that person isn't a known child abuser. It doesn't matter if the other parent is available and willing to look after the child.

Btw I did send you some PMs but you didn't reply.

@RedWingBoots many thanks. I'm really sorry. I don't know how to access pm's so was completely unaware. I'll investigate now to try see.

Yeah I'm aware regarding childcare but there was an informal agreement put in place but that has now been just ignored. It's just infuriating & we are at a loss on how to progress. We don't wish to cause any disruption or take over the role of DDs mother, we just want to be part of DDs life & for her to know that she is always welcome & wanted at our home. It's very hard to watch someone be so destructive & feel so powerless.

Many thanks for taking the time to respond & as I said, lll try find out how to access my pm's.

Jeez what utter tripe.

The issue with parental alienation is the drip, drip, drip effect over a long period of time. Some confuse the resident parent 'letting' the non resident parent see the child /children as proof it doesn't exist.

Unfortunately it's very difficult to prove unless the parent alienating does something so blatantly obvious that serious action is needed. Even if proven its unlikely action will be taken unless very serious alienation is in play.

I believe alienation is the number one accusation made by non resident parents trying to gain child contact. Unfortunately it's all wrapped up in the pre historic family court system we have in the UK.

The main issue being the system in place allowing bad behaviours which makes it very difficult to distinguish between cases where abuse is in play or a resident parent playing the system.

It has a devastating impact on non resident parents and the children.

OP you may want to check out Karen Woodall. She covers PA I think there's videos on YouTube

@Casper10 Thank you. Anything that can help us to document & understand what we need to do to ensure we are not overstepping is much appreciated. The reason I started this post was because when I have looked up it is very confusing, most of the information is based on the USA & it's difficult to find some practical information to help those on the receiving end to document & what behaviours should be challenged.

As someone who has been on the receiving end of a domestic abuser who claims pa

I'm bloody glad to see people starting to realise it's just another way to control.

Also, I read on here a lot of women who believe every single word their DH or dp says. Like it's gospel.

The mad ex wife
The evil ex wife
The ex wife won't let him see his kids
The ex is poisoning the kids
My poor dh etc etc etc

Blah blah blah .

I actually think that comments unfair, and rather ironically plays into the thinking that women don't have eye ears and thoughts independent of their own. Shall we not.

People do PA (who aren't abusers) and it's a form of one parent trying to control and hurt their ex by using the kids. It happens and it's incredibly cruel.

Some abusers who have been legally proven to be abusers of DV in the court, use PA as a means to control their ex via the children and it's incredibly cruel.

I'm the existence of one situation, doesn't automatically cancel the other out or make one more damaging than the other as in essence they are the same dammed thing with slightly different elements at play. The common denominator is the people who willing to do anything and sacrifice anyone to maintain control.

OP is asking for advice re her situation and as triggering as it maybe to some of you and I have a hell of lot of time/empathy for that (given my work) you need to scroll on if it's that bad.

But it's completely uncalled for you come along and say because of my experience I'm going to come along invalid yours and call OP dumb. How would you like it if people approached your DV history the way you have approached OP. I'm sure you would be fucking heartbroken and shocked at the hostility.

The matter of the fact is no one has no idea what a person is going through whether they are with a abuser or not and actually in receiving end of valid cases of PA. So save your hostilely for the abusers in this world, not for the people who suffer because of them. Or the abusers really will, dammed well win.

Also can we stop with the language that abusers would use to subtly put people down and make them feel small. If you have been on receiving end, you know it's impact.

Don't @ me either. I'm not in the mood. Having ironically been drafted in on a DV case on my mat leave because of the plague. Ffs.

@pitchforksandflamethrowers

a) I didn't call the op dumb
b) pa as a concept has been largely discredited.
c) the amount of new gf's/wife's who believe all is startling
d) I'm sure there are the odd cases of a person badmouthing other parent to extreme levels. Awful but I'm still glad pa is being shown to be a tool in the kit of abusers.

Sorry you got dragged in on mat leave.

a) lot of women who believe every single word their DH or dp says. Like it's gospel. How would you know this, do you live with each of the posters and see they blindly follow their DP. Or is it rather misogynistic assumption. Why do you assume they don't have their own intellect to you know make their own minds up ?But your right I summarised to stupid because that's what's implied when this type of thing on a thread.

b) In relation to DV is been largely discredited as previously stated because it put kids with forced time with their abusers. As a syndrome (aka a medical condition) yes it's also been largely discredited because the study wasn't robust enough and it wasn't representative. Before research and medical intervention cancer was killing people we knew it was happening but we didn't have a name for it or largely understand it. It still killed people.
There are problems with the medical element and then how that was interpreted into law. However saying it's bad mouthing people is wrong and completely undermines it's impact. Having just spent half the night going over a report of how a husband convinced his kids his wife was going mad and to live with him full time (via the courts) when he had broken nearly every bone in his wife's body while they were together and finally taking the kids away as punishment for the wife divorcing him. Would you call that bad mouthing ? He later went on to only hurt one of the kids and make that child believe she was mad.

c) from your perspective but you have no idea what the wife truly thinks. They wouldn't be posting on a forum if they were truly 100% sure, doubt/concern/worry as we all know starts slowly. A empathetic stance would be to kindly point out their might be another way to view it. Many posters on here call out DH actions and mine has been called out a few times for his idiocy. When you saw the warning signs did you foresee what hot water you would be in ? I personally didn't. The first wives and second wives are still human. Don't think because hindsight has made your vision 20/20 that she isn't starting from the same place as you did. Also not all men are abusers, some ex's are nasty people are people good and bad in each.

d) I can tell you from my work it's not a few it's a lot. A awful awful awful lot. Abuser of different genders (iMO only) is done differently by men and women, men use their strength, financial assets and women use their network, social standing and communication to abuse. Different types of abuse essentially although again, just my opinion. It needed reviewing, it needs defining but there are genuine families who will suffer if it has been removed completely. It's sad to say but the list of ways someone can abuse someone else is growing.

Ah I'm sorry too, it's probono work so it's pretty relaxed and doesn't actually break my mat leave, but after reading the case files I don't feel relaxed I feel incredibly narky.

I don't expect anyone in the early stages to not have emotive reactions to posts like this. I have sympathy for the fact it's hard to see the wood from the trees in the early days but you cannot discredit someone else's version of hell because it doesn't marry up with your version. We have enough abusers to do that.

I believe the victims their pain in the first instance yes that does open me up to being "hoodwinked" to begin with but it's better to believe and review the evidence, than be suspicious of someone and that person to not feel believed and then go back to the abuser or abusive situation. I remember how much courage it took me and if someone hadn't believed me when I reached out for proper help, I'm fully aware I would be dead right now.

Ps I tried bullet points but as you can see I still wrote a essay but I appreciate the bullet points since my brain is literally jelly rn.

The posters reality and your reality can exist and both be valid. And since I believe both of you, both have suffered different types of abuse and both are entitled to help, support and advice should either want it.

The world is shitty enough without victims turning on victims

@beachcitygirl sorry forgot to tag. Brain is officially melted.

I'm sorry you went through DA

However, that doesn't mean that PA doesn't exist.

The family court system is a racket which is played by Amber Heard types to stop access with the non resident parent.

Yes of course there are cases where there is DA and contact needs to be stopped but there are plenty of cases where it shouldn't.

If your going to post can you try and be a bit more balanced.

@Casper10

Your own post is so far from balanced

'The system is played by Amber Heard types to stop contact with the NRP...'

I mean, I don't know you, but you sound like a multitude of woe-is-me abusive fathers who've been rightly prevented from further damaging their children.

Children witnessing domestic violence are victims as per the DA Act, and rightly so. It cannot be ignored. The presumption of contact doesn't override a child's right to safety, and thank God for that.

However, there have been many cases of women and children who have been physically, emotionally and even sexually abused and the perpetrator levels his pseudo PA claims to throw a bit of dirt into the mix and try and further drag them through the wringer.

I know of one woman whose daughter disclosed sexual abuse at the NRP's hands. He cried 'PA'. Contact was reinstated by the court because of his outcry that the mother was a liar. The father continued to abuse the child and eventually contact was stopped - too late, though.

I'm sure there are parents out there who try to manipulate children against the other parent who has done nothing wrong. But I don't think there are many mothers who do so with no reason. Getting up on that witness stand is no picnic.

If you read my posts in the entirety they are balanced.

I have no issue with contact being stopped where there's DA and serious safety concerns.

What the premise of your argument seems to be is because there are cases of DA we ignore the cases where the family court system is being played to stop the Father / non resident parent seeing the children. Are you seriously saying this isn't an issue?

The system can be manipulated and that's damaging for children and parent being alienated.

There's not much willingness to tackle this issue and frankly in this age of equality for all we have a family court system which is anything but.

Can I just point out that this has been posted in the step parenting section. So although there is a lot of valid discussion regarding this, I have asked from a step parent perspective & if there are mothers who are finding a similar issue, can I direct you to other areas of the site that might be better suited to your circumstances.

@Lucky34 apologies that's my fault. I just think the comments got a bit out of hand with people creating stawman arguments and got bit over zealous and I contributed to going of topic

This post isn't about the validity or not of PA. I believe you and it shouldn't be happening, and for that I'm sorry.
. I wish the poster redwings was still knocking about as she knew a lot about this.

I would only communicate via text so it's all documented, any conversation that are had a summery text sent after each so it's documented. Do the kids have a phone you can lock or a way to communicate with them ? Have you informed the school ?

It's important the kids have a route to fact check before things get to potent so emails that are signed in on phones but locked to only their and yours access.

Thing is kids will naturally want both sides of the story and it's important that need is addressed

Are you denying it ever happen?

I saw it with my own eyes. I didn't need dp to tell me about it, she abused me as well as him.

When we met, he had nothing but good things to say about her. She seemed like a really nice woman and a bloody good mother.

When she realised we were in a relationship that was going to stick, the abuse started and she absolutely alienated her child. She said some absolutely abhorrent things.

It does happen. I appreciate that abusers also claim it and I'm sorry that's happened to you, but can we not try and deny it happens please.

Op my only advise is to document everything, even if you just write down what she's said verbally, what the kids have said. Save texts etc.

And then lower your expectations, because as you can see most people will believe the ex. Most people don't believe that women can be viscious without good reason, and even less believe that women will voluntarily cause emotional harm to their children.

Be consistent, if contact stops keep trying. You can prove when their older you never gave up. That's my only advice because I don't believe a man in this situation can actually win because most people's views are prehistoric.