A story about (a lack of) entitlement.

[Magda72]

There's been a lot of aggro (hand wringing & pearl clutching) on here recently re adult dc/bedrooms/finances etc. so after meeting a good friend for a long awaited catch up I'm going to share this.
This friend is separated from her husband 6 years. She has a 24yro, a 21yro, a 16yro & a 12yro. For as long as I've known her she has lived in a tiny 3 bed (3rd bed is basically a box room), 1 bathroom, tiny kitchen/diner, 1 tiny living room house. Her dh was always unemployed (by wish - wanted to pursue his Art) & my friend was always self employed in an area that pays the bills but very little by way of luxuries. My friend cannot afford to buy a bigger house and where we are her mortgage is less than what renting would be.
Since splitting her h has not given her or the dc a penny - not a penny. He basically fecked off to another part of the country with another woman & sees the dc sporadically.
My friends eldest was doing exams when her dad left but ploughed on and did very well. She then took a year out and worked to save hard for uni. She has since obtained a first class degree all the while working while studying in order to pay her way through college (with the assistance of a small education grant). My friend helped her when she could but money was and is very tight. This girl is now working a full time job & putting herself through an MA programme part time.

The second eldest didn't want to go to uni but went straight out to work after school. 3 years later she's a manager of her division - the company's youngest at 21.
My friends youngest two are different sexes and given their ages can no longer share a room. So in their house my friend & her dp have one room, her dd has another & her ds another. At this the house is full to the brim as the house is truly tiny. My friend literally has no room for her older 2 when they visit.

Does anyone moan? No.
She & her older dc make day trips to see each other & the dc if push comes to shove will sleep on a sofa/floor if an overnight is necessary. They have both moved out all their stuff into their own accommodations which they fully fund themselves. These dc also have no rooms at their dads as he lives in a one bed with his gf miles away and they have little interest in spending time with him.
These dc are 2 of the nicest, most thoughtful, sociable & hardworking people I've ever come across. The took my friend out for her birthday recently & treated her to everything - a spa day followed by dinner. They have been treated appalling by their dad but are not bitter or nasty or needy.
My friends two youngest are also great kids and her 16 year old is now working all summer having completed their exams.
It's grafting like this that makes me see red on here with all the expectation that dc need two homes, two bedrooms & to be housed & financed by both parents well into adulthood.
There's so much bullshit on here as to what good parenting is - the Mumsnet version of it seems to be some middle class crap about proving your love by providing every material comfort going & that if you don't (especially as a separated/divorced parent) you are failing your dc, they will be scarred for life & you should jump through hoops to right this.
I know many teens and young adults and NONE of them (including my own) are as hardworking, independent or grateful as my friend's dc. Her family is proof that love is not money & bedrooms & holidays & mollycoddling into adulthood - it's graft & pulling together & mutual respect & gratitude & a hell or a lot of people on here could learn a thing or two about this from my friend.

I don't think that's what the message is at all.

There is a vast difference between poverty stricken lifestyle and keeping a room vacant just as children left it, for adult children in case they pop home in two houses.

Most people given the economic climate won't be able to do that, financially running a massive house for kids to be able to have it as a memorial to their childhood just in case is bonkers. Sure there should be a bed/room (if finances allow it) for them to come stay but the sofa is ok if not as the kids are there to spend time with their parents . But I really dislike that with SC there is no middle ground... baffling people seem to purposely ignore it

@Magda72

May I apologise? I made a dickish comment earlier on, I don’t know what came over me.

Your friend’s kids sound awesome.

That's nice. I have a nice friend with lovely, polite, successful and hard working young adult children, who pay their own way and have a wonderfully close relationship with their parents. Their parents are wealthy, have a big house and maintain bedrooms for when their kids visit.

There's nothing noble about poverty and there is no 100% failsafe, guaranteed way to ensure kids turn out well or otherwise. I'm sure the parents of many serial killers/drug addicts/various undesirables worked hard and were decent, honest people doing their best for their children. Would you say it's their fault the children didn't turn out to be the same paragons of virtue as your friend's kids? There are rich entitled brats and there are poor ones. There are also rich but honest and decent people along with poor ones. There's really no point to your story except as some kind of odd brag that you have a nice friend. Congratulations.

@ShirleyJackson & to you too.

Your friend has done an outstanding job, as do many single/ lone parents. Women are very resourceful and excellent at adapting to what needs to be done, especially under pressure. l think as well when you are on your own, you tend to walk taller because there is an expectation from some that you will fail.
However l would be wary of criticising different ways of parenting, we all try and do our best with what we' ve got, thats how l see it.

Your friend and her dcs sound lovely OP. And you are right about mn and its weird policies re bedrooms. With a blended family of 4 dcs for instance it's often completely out of reach for a 5 bedroom or 4 bedroom property. And larger families that appear in the media who are waiting for larger council properties are often slated for it. I see ridiculous posts on here and just eyeroll and wonder what it must be like to live in a house where every child must have their own room for ever and ever and ever. It's just not realistic for many, many families. Doesn't make them shit parents, just means kids have to share rooms.

I'm the oldest out of 6 tho. Grew up in a 3 bedroom house. Only brother had his own room, me and 2 dsis in one room, 2 youngest in parents room til dm left stepfather. Had a 3.5 bedroom house, brother in the .5 room, dm in with 2 youngest, 3 oldest shared a room til I left at 18.

Apart from me being a bit arsey about my dcs cluttering up my bedroom with their stuff, I'm pretty well adjusted, comfortable financially and married to a lovely dh with 2 dcs. In a 3 bed so everyone had their own rooms but when dd goes to uni in September she is being evicted from the bigger room for ds to have it as hopefully she will spread her wings. Eventually me and dh will probably downsize to a 2 bed, definitely don't want either dc thinking they can come back home if things get a bit shitty out in the real world, me and dh won't be here forever and they have to learn to deal with life.

I'm afraid I feel yours was the pointless post, and also inherently judgy and mean about people who, even doing their very best, don't turn out such perfect little darlings as these.

However l would be wary of criticising different ways of parenting, we all try and do our best with what we' ve got, thats how l see it.
I wasn't criticising different ways of parenting. I was actually doing the exact opposite in standing up for a type of parenting that is regularly vilified on the stepparenting board.

I'm afraid I feel yours was the pointless post, and also inherently judgy and mean about people who, even doing their very best, don't turn out such perfect little darlings as these.
The vast majority of parents are doing their best and I said up thread that personality plays a significant part in how dc 'turn out'.
As I said in my last post I was merely pointing out that a type of parenting that is regularly vilified on this board is not always the car crash that the sanctimonious crew predict it will be!

If you weren't criticising different ways of parenting, why say that people are Pearl clutching and hand-wringing? That is demeaning someone who is worried about something that you do not

Because the stepparenting board is FULL of people passing all manner of judgements on parents who may not want, or be able, to parent the way society now deems correct. These hand wringers & pearl clutchers invariably damn any parent to doesn't (for whatever reason) place their child or stepchild front or center of every damn thing & THEY are the ones who flatly refuse to accept that most parents are trying their best & jump down the throats or anyone who doesn't live up to their exacting standards.

I agree OP, and hats of to your friend, Although I also agree personality definitely plays a part.

Issue is that a lot of people on this site have led incredibly privileged lives they can't even comprehend being in a situation like your friends.

4 children seems a lot to have with a partner who's bringing in no income.

I asked above, but it seems to have been missed.

Does your friends DP children ever stay overnight with their father?

MN is hardly representative of “society”. You don’t live in the U.K. so to which society are you referring, even?

Poor people can turn out well-adjusted young adults, without maintaining a dedicated bedroom in their homes for them. Is this the point you’re making? If so, that’s quite a narrow and niche topic of conversation for as wide-sweeping generalisations as those in your OP…

I cannot believe how triggered so many people are by a woman successfully raising 4 dc with little financial or other help.
There's a lot of mean spiritedness on here.
@KnitOnePearlOneDropOne I would have thought that it was pretty obvious given my op that no her partner does not have his dc to stay as there is no room. I supposed this will be another cause for complaint.
He sees his teen dc overnight at his parents house for reasons that were covered upthread and for days out/dinners etc. at my friends.

I would have thought that it was pretty obvious given my op that no her partner does not have his dc to stay as there is no room. I supposed this will be another cause for complaint.

Yeah to right it is. As are your judgemental views of other posters and use of the term 'triggered'. What you mean is people have a different view to you.

Yay for your friend but I have no idea what this story has to do with step parenting, or the perennial issue of step children being treated differently/pushed aside.

Full siblings sharing a small house, where younger children spread out into the vacated space as their older siblings grow up and move out, is absolutely nothing like the hotly debated issues you see on here.

I cannot believe how triggered so many people are by a woman successfully raising 4 dc with little financial or other help

Well to be fair you set the strawman up in your OP. What did you think was going to happen?

To me this is just another case of “don’t have kids with useless men who are not prepared to financially support their offspring”

Oh so this is the link to the step parents and no bedrooms!

I understand your post @Magda72

I do believe that the way lots of mc parents parent financially hinders their dcs development. My cousin is a prime example. He gets bailed out time and time again, he's mid twenties and his parents still pay for his MOT/insurance/repairs and he gets lots. It hasn't helped him. He is lovely and I do love him but he has no clue what the real world is like, he loses a phone and gets another, whereas my teen dc have to put up with smashed/lost phones for a while and so look after their belonging much better. My aunty tears hair out with frustration over how practically useless he is - but they made him like that. He is very loveable but has no clue how to be independent.

Sometimes we help our dc out too much and step parenting seems to be where it really shows up.

You think both parents accepting and acting on their basic financial responsibilities as parents is a middle class fantasy?

Oh dear.

@Magda72 I can't believe the roasting you have got on here!
Your friend sounds amazing. What a great example of a strong woman getting on with things and bringing up such incredible children with zero help.
Yes men should step up, but many don't and many are lazy and selfish and sometimes it's just not worth pursuing them for money.

Yes men should step up, but many don't and many are lazy and selfish and sometimes it's just not worth pursuing them for money

And there's the problem, isn't it? That we accept that many men are next to useless and then slag off the women who have children with them rather than demand, as a society, that men up their game when it comes to parenting and supporting their children. The OP's friend shouldn't have had to do what she did. And there are thousands of us out there doing it. Many with the support of benefits (who are therefore fair game for judgement and are blamed for the feckless fathers) and many without but all doing the very best they can by their children in difficult circumstances.

It is time as a society we recognised where the real problem is. It's not single mothers, is it?