Court orders

[fangle]

I stupidly posted in AIBU and will request its deletion as I forgot all step parents are scum here but I'm genuinely confused as to how they can resolve this. Each thinks they are right. She thinks the weekends aren't included and he thinks holidays are separate from term time and should be split down the middle regardless and weekends should remain as they are with holidays superseding them but the pattern for weekends remains the same -

So if the court order says -

Children to live with the mother
Father to have contact during term time every other weekend (from end of school on Friday and return to school Monday) and one night in the week (Wednesday) and Half of the school holidays split equally between the parents arranged in advance ....

Then how do you split holidays?

My ex partner and I just split holidays down the middle in half so the kids don't have to go to and fro and it's easy for us to plan in advance as we both know if it's the last day of term and they would be with either of us then we "get" the first half or what ever. Straight forward and amicable. Apart from the summer holidays where if there's a special date or any thing we try and accommodate and make each other's lives easier so the children are settled and know what's going on.

What happens when parents can't agree? DP is having a mare with his ex and I can't advise as frankly I think it's ridiculous they're squabbling about numbers of nights and emailing spreadsheets to each other

So if it's a week holiday split in half down the middle

If it's two weeks (like Easter) and covers 3 weekends - how do you split it? My ex H and I split down the middle - our EOW remains constant and won't change - holidays get lapped over the top but the weekends don't change.

For example this Easter ex has them for first 10 nights then I have them - then they go back to school and they're back with me the consecutive weekend.

My partner and his x can't agree and she thinks the weekends aren't part of the holiday and shouldn't be included so she's saying he should have the DC 5 days extra over the next two weeks but when she wants him to - and she still gets them on "her" weekends meaning we can't go away on our booked holiday.

I'm confused and frankly hate the drama so any advise much appreciated. Hope this makes sense.

They should handle it like mature adults and get half the time in the school holiday including the weekends that fall in the school holiday and they should try and be accommodating towards any holidays and family plans which are in the best interest of the child.

And no, it shouldn't all be about what she wants

@OutingHobby well I agree but I can't find any evidence or case law that states the weekends are part of the holiday and she's absolutely adamant that "her" weekends are "her" weekends irrespective of holidays and he's of the view there should be as few hang overs and just split stuff in half to make life easy.

I'm to thankful that my ex at least has half a brain not to use our DC like a trophy like these two idiots.

The weekends are part of the school holidays. They aren't term time

I dont see why it has to be case law as they just are.

@OutingHobby she's saying they're not the holiday they are weekends and not included.

Fgs when my kids came home last night they were as far as they are concerned on school holidays for 2 weeks.... they didn't say yippee it's the weekend and on monday we are on holiday.

Bless you, what a nightmare. We had a similar issue, settled by the lawyers / court involved confirming the intent of the language. What I understood was that term time vs holidays are typically separate (in that the schedule from one doesn't transfer to the other period). In our case the holiday's are granularly detailed as to when they are + how many nights with ex. The EOW does not continue during hols in our case as DD only spends a few extra days with her Father in the hols (long story, safeguarding reasons). Ex had booked a holiday in 'my time' (hate that expression) so I just gave him those days so that it didn't impact their holiday.

From what you've said it sounds like the intent is:

Term time: The schedule outlined.
Holidays: 50% of the nights for each parent regardless of whether they are week days, weekends, bank holidays etc.

If I've read it right, she doesn't get to claim her weekends in the holidays, rather its up to both of them to agree how to carve up the hols. IMO (as an ex wife) it's patently unreasonable of the ex to think she can dictate as / when contact takes place. That's not the intent and it's actually quite controlling. It's clearly not in the child's best interest to deny them the opportunity to go on holiday with their Dad.

You may also want to try posting this on the legal board as there are a couple of family lawyers who are very knowledgeable and comment on threads from time to time. They might be able to give you a definite answer or legal route to sort it out.

Problem is the wording in the court order isn't it?

It says EOW during term time - which in her mind means weekends over the holidays are not split( IMHO-madness)

Split the holidays - simple but then the above order says he does not get weekends except in term time.

The two of them need their heads banging together. 8 week summer holidays does mean they both would not see them for a month - which is hard for bothe sides. They need to work it out.

Poorly worded court order

@Pinkyxx thank you 😊 your explanation is fab

My OH had this. Court order stated that he has the kids …. during term time but that the term time arrangements are suspended during the holidays (not half terms) and that he has the kids for one week over Xmas, One over Easter and two over summer. There was an argument over whether in the summer he still had his weekends but it was deemed no. Basically he has them for 14 days which includes 2 weekends. Not sure if your consent order has similar?

Completely agree with pinkyxx

@toobusytothink I think it's sensible that way too but he will have to seek clarification from the court. It's so frustrating why everything has to be a battle 😩

To me this is fairly simple - holidays need to be split 50/50 so if they break up on a Friday this is the start of the holidays and if they have 4 weeks holiday plus a weekend (as it won’t be an exact 4 weeks) they would have 30 days to share so 15 days each - would make sense to do two weeks each but could do week on/week off

Of course the weekends are included in the holiday contact. So if for example this weekend was his weekend, he could have them as usual and then have them all week and they could go back to mums on Friday and then her week would start. That's how it would work here anyway

The court expects people to act like adults. However, if it's ended up in court in the first place at least one party is unreasonable. This is why each time I've been dragged to court by the unreasonable other party I've ensured granular detail. If there are any loopholes, they'll be exploited.

We largely stick to weekends except at Christmas where that doesn't work due an alternating arrangement, and summer where the holiday is broken down to longer periods than weeks.

For a two week school holiday, for example, it will be:
Parent 1 weekend
Parent 1 Mon-Fri
Parent 2 weekend
Parent 2 Mon-Fri
Parent 1 weekend
School

@Doyoumind

The court expects people to act like adults. However, if it's ended up in court in the first place at least one party is unreasonable. This is why each time I've been dragged to court by the unreasonable other party I've ensured granular detail. If there are any loopholes, they'll be exploited.

We largely stick to weekends except at Christmas where that doesn't work due an alternating arrangement, and summer where the holiday is broken down to longer periods than weeks.

For a two week school holiday, for example, it will be:
Parent 1 weekend
Parent 1 Mon-Fri
Parent 2 weekend
Parent 2 Mon-Fri
Parent 1 weekend
School

This is what I was trying to say but in a much clearer way

Is this a new situation? What has happened in previous years / on previous holidays since the order was written?

I think she would be pretty petty to stop a prebooked holiday she was aware of at this stage... but then again if he is planning to have the kids for the whole of the Easter weekend without discussion I can see why this might be causing problems too.

He needs to sit down and work through the whole school year with her so that this clashing holidays Dodleston happen again after all its the kids stuck in the middle isn't it.

Is the spreadsheet thing because they are close to the cut off for the next maintenance bracket?

Im wondering if this is to do with a day counting effort to hit with maintenance or 50/50 split?

155 and 174 days are maintenance change cut offs
182.5 half year

52 week 1 day
26 weekends 2 days = 52
Half of 14 weeks holiday = 7 weeks 4 additional days (28) if on his weeknight week, 5 otherwise (35)
So 132 or 139 days.

If you include the 2 weekends either side of half term however or the 3 weekends in the Easter holidays etc then my kids have 20 holiday weekends. So by claiming them your dp could be up to 152 or 159 days total - so yes that could hit the maintenance level cut off? Is that the issue?

Sorry just reread 3 nights ewo...

52 week 1 day
26 weekends 2 days = 78
Half of 14 weeks holiday = 7 weeks 3 additional days (21) if on his weeknight week, 4 otherwise (28) or could be 5 if no weeknight or Friday (35)
So 151 or 158 or 165 days.

So adding the 20 holiday weekend days in could definitely take him over 50% ...

@LittleOwl153 tbh I don't know what ever the finances with CMS he pays it - that's not in dispute I don't think.

At risk of sounding contentious.. the impact on CMS is irrelevant. Not sure if the day counts are correct though. Having done this with a fine tooth comb with my ex, I think it goes this way...

Contact period:
Term time: EOW from end of school on Friday to Monday (3 nights) + 1 night in the week (Wednesday)

Holidays: 50% of the holidays (starts when school finishes, i.e. end of school day on the last day of term)

Standard school holidays:
13 weeks per year (13* 7 = 91).
Half = 45.5 nights.

Term time:
39 weeks. (52-13)
Half (i.e. eow) = 19 - 20 weeks (depending on how the cycle falls).
20 * 4 = 80

Total nights:
80+45.5= 125.5

If term-time contact applied in the holidays, it wouldn't cite an equal split so unless the order states that the term time Wednesday night applies during the hols, it doesn't, likewise nor do the weekends. Neither party can claim term time rights in the opposing period.

I understand the point you've made but I think you've overcomplicated it. Being pedantic and by LA/school holidays the school holidays do actually commence on the following Monday, not the Friday/Saturday as schools close therefore the EOW is easiest best stood. My DP court order states the 50/50 split of school holidays starts from the Friday-Friday for whoever would usually have the 1st weekend then swap over. It maintains continuity in the weekend patterns and enables a fair split of the 10 "school" days in week blocks.

@Sayitaintsoiwillnotgo the difference in your case is that the court order states Fri-Fri so the intent was exactly as you say for the cadence of OEW to continue all year round with holiday days 'tagged on' to the regular weekends. In Op's case the language suggests a clear distinction between term time and holidays; with holidays to be split equally on an agreed basis. I may of course be wrong.

My DP had to go back to court yet again for this issue because his ex was wholly unreasonable about it in the majority of holidays. It was the only way in the end.
The wording was improved and made clear that 50/50 of all holidays meant an equal division. Term time arrangements suspended at the end of the school day that directly precedes the holiday commences and finish at the start of school on the first day back.
The half terms were never too much of an issue as the equal division fell on a middle of Wednesday. But Easter holidays was always a big issue as she tried to give him 5 days and she have 12 days.

It's pathetic.

@Pinkyxx not disagreeing with you. My main point was that actually school holidays begin on a Monday and end on a Friday (sorry if I didn't make that clear). That is what is written on all local authority/school calendars, so the only weekend here that can technically be argued is the middle weekend.

I think the only way this can be resolved in this case is back to court for it to be explicitly written what is meant as clearly both sides have dug in - if wording is as OP says, both sides are misunderstanding/in the wrong re:splitting weekends. I just used our example to highlight our least hassle method - and believe me my DP and his ex have a very acrimonious relationship.