Another AIBU!

[PennyLane75]

First time seeker of advice here so please be kind!
I'll try and make this as short as possible.
Dh & I are both divorced approx 10 years, together for 8 & married for 4. I have one dd (15) & he has 4 ds (22, 20, 17 & 15).
In our house we pay the mortgage 50/50 & I pay 2/3rds of all else for my dd & I, & dh pays 1/3. I holiday alone with my dd which I pay for & if dh & I go away together we pay 50/50. I get on well with my exh & his dw & my dd is a happy content girl who also has a great relationship with dh.
When dh divorced they sold the family home which he had inherited so he was able to buy his exw a good size family home outright with no mortgage & a small cottage for himself where he sees the boys 5 nights one week & 2 nights the next week. They live over an hour away & we chose to not blend for many reasons but space (dh & I couldn't afford a larger place together without selling the cottage), the fact that his dc had weekend sports & my dd finding them very overwhelming being the main reasons.
Dh's ex doesn't work outside the home & on divorcing he agreed to give her £200 per week per child. He also pays ALL school stuff inc. trips & pays ALL third level outgoings for the eldest & will do so for the others. He also takes them on all their holidays. He has a good job & is financially astute so he can afford to do this, but only just - it leaves him with virtually nothing left over at the end of the month. Since covid the eldest has been back with dm so dh is now back to giving her £800 a week!!!! - having paid uni fees & accommodation for a full year! Despite the boys getting older his exw is still not working. This is fine - her choice - except for the fact that since I've know him she has always had issues with money. The first few years weren't so bad - mainly her refusing to buy the boys clothes so dh would have to, but the last three have been awful. Every month there's a fresh request for money for car tax/car insurance/house maintenance/house fuel/a holiday - you name it, she requests it. Initially dh would say no but this would cause war and she'd be roaring down the phone at him in front of the kids so he'd capitulate & pay whatever bill it was.
This week however dh tells me that she's contacted him and wants 15K. Her grand scheme is that dh lends it to her & she'll give it back to him in a few years when she sells her (mortgage free) house. He phoned his solicitor who said he (dh) can draw up an agreement & get her (the ex) to sign it & that it 'should' stand up in court down the road but it may not.
Dh did all this behind my back so to speak - both he & ex have signed the document but he hasn't given her the money yet as he's having to cash in a small pension fund to get her the money!!!!! I am beyond raging but he says he 'has' to do this as his 17 year old spent all last weekend crying because his dm is so mean about money. The 22 year old is heading back to uni next week & the 20 year old is due to start so aside from the 15K his ex wants dh has two large uni bills coming up.
AIBU in being angry & thinking all this is absolutely ridiculous? This is not about the money per sae, it's about the fact that dh is (& always has) letting himself be taken for a massive ride. The last few years have really taken their toll on him emotionally & financially & it's all at the hands of his exw. He works ferocious hours to provide for them all & is honestly becoming a shadow of his former self & I'm genuinely worried about his health. He is always worried (about the boys) & tired & as a result is permanently cranky.
I can't seem to get through to him that this whole situation is madness. Does anyone have any advice/tips/suggestions at getting through to someone in this situation?
Sorry for the lost post but it feels good to get it all out.

YANBU.

Is he prone to caving in to emotional blackmail? Presumably the 17yo was ‘crying’ about not having new trainers or console? And in the real world, they need to learn that these things don’t grow on trees. Especially if their mother chooses not to work.

What is the loan for? Going behind your back to release the funds for this for his work-shy ex would cause most people a lot of resentment. Have you asked him not to pay the money?

Do any of the boys have part time jobs? Do they appreciate their father or just see him as a cash point?

Ps does their divorce entitle the ex to half your DH’s pension?

Wow she has some cheek.

But the main problem her is that your DH needs to grow a back bone and learn to say no.

She is not his wife, they are no longer together. His sons are older now and he has and still does pay more than enough for them (why is he paying that much anyway when he has 50:50 contact???).

You're somewhat separate still so I guess it's his money to blow on his ex wife if he wants but it would really put me off someone tbh. I'd have expected the exes gravy train to have stopped long ago and I'd really not be impressed by a 15k loan. No way. What does she even need it for? Time to get a job if she's short. She's had it good so far by the sounds of it.

Another thought, OP... at this stage (with the ages of the children) most divorced parents’ lives are growing further apart. Your DH seems to be getting closer and more connected with this loan. That’s another reason why it’s just not right.

To answer some questions:
Dh is the most sane, rational, level headed person ever - except when it comes to his dc. They have always been his Achilles heel. None of them have jobs (covid has been a great excuse this year) & yes, I definitely feel that while they no doubt love dh he is very much the bank roller for them & this is encouraged by their dm.
He gave that much maintenance on divorce as his job used to involve more travel than it does now & he was mindful that she had the majority childcare of young children. But that's no longer the case & dh just doesn't seem to fully get this.
His money is his to do with as he sees fit but it's getting to the point where he just doesn't have it & it's impacting him.
The 17 year old was crying because in his words dm is always on about money & he'd like to get away from her & go to boarding school! I don't know if it was anything more specific than that.
I told dh I didn't think he should give her the loan as there's no guarantee she'll use it for the kids 'expenses' & there is no guarantee he'll get it back & no guarantee that she won't want more in another 12/18 months; that basically he's enabling her to take no financial responsibility for herself & he needs to stand his ground. He agrees but says he can't bear listening to the boys being upset as it's very distressing.
I can just him being bled dry in years to come & working himself into the ground for it.
The finances don't impact me but his mental & physical health does.
Also - she has no divorce claim on his pension.
It's just so frustrating.

Cross posted @MeridianB & I agree fully. I feel he keeps getting sucked back in & it's ridiculous & not right at all.

What 'child expenses' does she need 15k for?!

He needs to meet with his four sons together and have a serious chat about all aspects of money. He doesn’t need to go into the figures but they need to understand how fully he provides and how he expects everyone to develop a work ethic and know the importance (and pleasure) of being financially independent. He would be doing them a big favour by helping them become well-rounded adults.

Can the 17yo live with you? Then he would get away from her financial dramas and DH can cut maintenance.

The more you say, the harder it is to see any good reason why your DH should give the ex any money. It sounds highly unlikely that he will enforce repayment of this ‘loan’. Esp as the huge amount of maintenance she lives off will reduce and disappear in the next few years.

It also sets a horrible precedent. I can see her coming back for more before the house is sold, if it ever is. The boys may follow her lead and opt for emotionally-laden handouts over jobs.

I’d actually go into the full facts and figures with the “children”. The whole thing, from how much the house was, what he pays their mother weekly, what it costs to feed an accommodate them with him, what he pays for on top such as school trips and holidays and phones, what their darling mama has demanded now, how many hours he works to provide all this, how many pennies are left in his savings account and pension for old age....
The whole sorry story, backed up with as much evidence as possible so that when I’ll health and penury finally come calling, the “children” don’t get it in their heads that dad no longer cares and can appreciate that he has finally been bled dry and that they and their mother might want to consider getting off their arses and getting a job.

I cannot get my head around this situation
It’s absolutely nuts!

He needs to say no. And YOU DO GET A SAY, it’s not solely his money anymore and ceased to be so when you two got married. Large expenses should always be a joint decision... especially if it ends up impacting your life and finances with him.

Fuck. I would leave my DP if he unilaterally decided to give his ex a huge sum of money like that without even consulting me.

£800 a week?!! Sorry... I cannot understand how she’s getting £3,200 a month with no mortgage and doesn’t have a tonne of money left over.
Wtf is she spending it on?!
Unless she’s feeding them fucking caviar she should have large savings. If not then she needs to reassess her lifestyle choices

@SpongebobNoPants is right. I hadn’t totted it up but it’s mad. And that sum is tax free. Something very seriously wrong here.

Think your husband has a bad case of Guilty Father symdrome until he addresses his issues i dont think anything would change unfortunatly.
God be with the days went parents actually taught there kids to be indepedant.

Agree with all the PP’s, this situation is ridiculous!

The first thing your DH needs to do is face up to the 50/50 situation. He shouldn’t be paying maintenance at all - and if he wants to, he has a perfect right to reduce it massively. I’d halve it right away.

If he hadn’t handed over the “loan” yet, can he pull out of the agreement and say he needs to review his financial situation?

He needs to take a step back and look at this logically, putting emotion aside. Then he might see how ridiculous it all is. Even his younger children are close to adulthood now, his ex needs to get out there and start supporting herself.

That’s insane. He’s spending 7 nights out of 14 with his dc. That means equal time with each parent. My ex & I do this & we make no payments to each other. Nothing. One of the real benefits of children spending equal time with each parent is that you don’t argue about money- because you don’t pay each other anything! (And my ex is very well off - I don’t expect hand outs from him.)

And why on earth is your dh paying for a 22 year old? This young man is an adult; at this stage in his life he really needs to be encouraged to stand on his own feet. It’s not a kindness to make your children dependent.

Your dh is obviously being taken for a ride: as you say, the question is why he can’t see this. I’m not convinced by allowing this he has actually done his kids a favour: mother obviously sees him as a cashpoint, is unwilling to support herself like an independent adult, and manipulates the kids to extract money.

Could you and he go for family therapy to talk about what’s really going on here- why he’s doing what he is, & the effect on you? I can only think there’s some very weird emotional stuff going on with him to accept this.

This is madness ! Is the money for the older 2 going straight to them or to the ex ?

What’s his retirement plan? Does he have one? Savings? Pensions?

Personally I see a fair few men spend large amounts of money (out of guilt potentially) on their children/ court applications etc. And that’s their choice. Aside from when they then set up home with someone else.

Because I come back to this one question? What are they going to life off when they retire?

How entwined are your wider financials? Are there wills/ trusts for the children? I don’t think it’s remotely acceptable for him to make this decision without talking to you in full. I’d be concerned about what else (truthfully) he’s not telling you.

^£800 a week?!! Sorry... I cannot understand how she’s getting £3,200 a month with no mortgage and doesn’t have a tonne of money left over.
Wtf is she spending it on?!^

This.

And iv taught about it there is much more goin on if hes handing her 15k i wouldnt earn that a year. Ur husband im afraid is the problem not the kids or his ex. Im in actually sorry to say that coz i dont judge anyones suituation. But the fact he told her yes without even talking to you would have alarm bells ringing there. I know he doesbr have to tell u everything but that large amount id be telling ur husband and her to fuck off. Tell him to come back when when he grows balls love or no love.

She maintains she needs the 15k as the maintenance doesn't cover 'expenses' such as car tax/car insurance/house insurance etc. & that she'll use it to cover that stuff for the next 3 years - that is until the youngest turns 18 & she will then sell her house. This issue of 'extra expenses' has been an ongoing for the last few years & when dh used to say no she would explode in front of the dc & then not get the car taxed & refuse to drive them to school. This is why dh capitulated. She now maintains that if he will just give her this 15k that she won't bother him again.
Personally I feel that she has wracked up debts & needs this sum to pay off a loan or a credit card & have said as much to dh.
I don't know what she spends the maintenance on & it confounds me also. Dh says she was never great at budgeting & it could be something that simple; that she just doesn't know how to budget.
Dh having the dc 50/50 has only come over time as when the maintenance was set his job involved a lot more travel & he felt it would be mean to reduce it when he ceased to travel as much.
The 17 year old can't live with us as dh would still need be gone from here 4 nights or 2 nights a week to see the 15 year old who is happy where he is at the moment. I also don't think the 17 year old really wants to go to boarding school. I think he just said it as yet another thing to guilt dh about.
When the eldest is at uni dh gives him the money directly & will do the same with the 20 year old who took a gap year & has done nothing all year due to covid! So from next week the ex will only be getting £500 a week which will cause further outbursts I'd say.
I've been thinking about the guilt thing all evening & it's gotten worse as the years have gone by & I think it's because he's actually very happy with me & feels really bad about that when he's with his dc who are party to their dm's anger at everything but which she directs at dh.
He did go behind my back which I'm very annoyed about but he did apologise this evening & said he 'fessed up to me as he hates not being honest with me but that he didn't tell me sooner as he knew I would disapprove. After that remark I told him to grow up!
His finances have never bothered me as we both pay our way and are very equal in our household but as a pp pointed out what I don't like about this is the fact that instead of increasing distance between him and his ex as the dc gets older, the distance is actually decreasing, & also the manipulation he's giving into & the effect it's having on his health & wellbeing.
I would like to tell him not to give her a penny beyond the maintenance & explain all this to the dc, but if she pulls a stunt like selling her house which she always threatens to do, dh & dc will see this as sabotaging exam years (none of them cope with change very well) & then I run the risk of this coming between us as I'll have been the one who told him to cut her off.
But I feel if I leave him to it he/we will be thousands down in a few years & he will be done in from the strain of it.

If she needs 15K, why doesn’t she go out and earn it?

(And my ex is very well off - I don’t expect hand outs from him.)

It is pretty crass, in my opinion, to label maintenance as a ‘handout’. It is not unreasonable that both parents contribute to the upbringing of a child. Nor is it unreasonable that any career sacrifice in marriage is recognised long-term post-divorce. No one should be made to feel they are begging or out of order for needing maintenance to support their children. There are too many children living in poverty as a direct result of attitudes like this.

This situation, however, goes beyond that and is clearly caused by guilt on the part of the OP’s DH and a sense of entitlement in the ex. Whilst the OP admits the ex wife has made sacrifices to bring up the children while her ex worked, it is clear years have passed here and no one has adjusted properly to the new situation. Both parties need to get a grip on how the future is going to look and start taking responsibility. Is there a spousal maintnenance or global order in place, OP? Are you sure there is no pension share? Given that he is a very high earner, it would seem odd that nothing long term was legally put in place. Is there an end date your DH is looking forward to or is he dithering around it, trying to keep the ex happy? I am afraid you may be in for a rough ride here, doubly so if the legal situation hasn’t been sorted appropriately.

It would be a deal breaker for me that my partner agreed to this behind my back.

OP, you’ve not answered my wider question.
What’s his retirement plans with his money being haemorrhaged in this manner.

@Enoughnowstop I think these are emotive discussions. There’s no question in my mind over child support and of course both parents should contribute to the upbringing and ongoing costs of their children.

But what is very tricky is spousal. I have WOHM all my life and it has not been remotely easy, juggling childcare and a job. In actual fact it’s been a nightmare. But I wouldn’t have had it any other way, because I have retained my financial independence.

Career sacrifice recognised post divorce? I think a lot of career sacrificers have had it pretty nicely for sometime. My only hope is that this becomes less and less as workforce’s are pivoted to bringing more diversity in/ supporting parents back into work etc. Because examples like the OP’s continue to be commonplace. And they are grabby and entitled.

How some parents operate in this manner is unfathomable to me.

Spousal maintenance was not awarded as she got a house mortgage free. Dh inherited their family home pre marriage from a bachelor uncle. This property also came with land. When it was sold the majority share was used to buy exw a large new home 'in town' & buy dh a small country cottage a little out the country. There was some cash left over which I believe also went to the exw. Dh's pension was left alone on the understanding that the house was to be mortgage free & that he would assume sole responsibility for all education including third level.
I don't think she ever gave up a career as I don't think she had one. She worked in a shop before the dc but dh said she never showed any interest in going back to work or training for anything. He sort of assumed (as you would) that she would do something as the dc got older even if just to break the monotony of being in the house all day, but she never has.
I think there's most like a big psychological piece on her part whereby she is struggling with dh having moved on & she keeps using the kids to rein him back in. It's a dh problem in that he lets her.
I'm going to try and talk to him this evening about therapy.
I must say it's a dynamic I don't really understand as like @sassbott I have always worked & really value my financial independence, & exh & I are really separate in this sense. I would never dream of asking him for money & I know he feels the same. For exh & I divorce means EVERYTHING bar our parenting is separate.