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Splitting holidays: when you can't agree....

73 replies

ThisMustBeMyDream · 04/03/2020 23:44

Sorry, this turned in to a bit of an epic tale. Apologies....

My other half has just been told he can have half of all school holidays with his daughter (court order states term time contact to be suspended during school holidays. School holidays shall be shared equally between the parties).

Easter will be the first shared holiday. Child is 3, and has spent 5 days with her dad on holidays previously.

Mum isn't happy about the new court order. In fact, it would be fair to say she was furious. The order was made just under 2 weeks ago. My other half decided it would be best to let things settle before broaching how the division of easter will look.

Anyway, she messaged him yesterday and said she had been thinking about the holidays, and she proposed that as the first weekend of easter would have ordinarily been her weekend, she would keep that. Then as the child had a swimming lesson on the tuesday, she propsed dad got from 4pm on the tuesday, until 5pm on the sunday so that she could go home and see what the easter bunny had brought her.

Fine in principle - but this wasn't half of the holiday. He would have 5 nights, while she would have 11! He gently pointed this out by asking where she would like him to have the remaining time.

Well, this did not go down well in the slightest. She eventually offered tuesday 4pm until the monday 5pm. She would not in any way accept that 7 days and nights is a week. She actually argued that a week is monday - sunday. No matter what he pointed out to her she would not back down on this idea. She also wouldn't accept that the easter holiday was 16 days, and half of this was 8. She said it was 10 days, so 5 was half. She actually threw a written hissy fit. She said she would deny contact if he didn't agree to her dates (as in number of days contact). Then she started ranting about the court order saying she only had to give 28 days notice to keep the child longer (previous holiday arrangements were 28 days notice for either party with no opportunity to say no to it provided notice given. Current order has no such stipulation). Then the rant went on to saying she had a holiday booked so she wasn't giving him any more time and that was that. This was despite being at court less than 2 weeks ago and being asked of any issues for the easter holiday and her saying no.

The upshot is, well, who knows really. He agreed to the dates she suggested but is asking her to figure out where she wants the additional contact to be. He has given her free reign of dates to whatever works for her. She states she won't be agreeing to any other times though. He has suggested him having longer over the May half term but shot down in flames over that suggestion. Also suggested putting the time on to the summer holidays. Ignored completely over that one. She has a strong history of trying to control and manipulate the orders to her benefit. So none of this behaviour was a big surprise to either me or my other half.

Is he being unreasonable to think half of holidays should mean half of holidays (within reason obviously as sometimes things can't work out that way)? He has no objection to splitting the time up, he doesn't mind if she has 9 days and he has 7 ultimately - it's the issue over how she will do this at every single holiday. She has derailed every extended holiday time he has had with his daughter. Recent examples include her not wanting him to have 1 extra contact day at christmas (he had 26th/27th court ordered and then no contact again til his normal weekend of 3rd, so as family live over 4 hours away he wanted to extend from sunday night to monday night to facilitate visit. She didn't like it but the order allowed for it with it's wording. So she called the police saying she didn't know where the child was. Even though she did...). She also didn't allow him to have any extra time in the feb half term, which he left as it was back in court imminently.

He is a teacher, so the holidays are their quality time together. So he obviously feels strongly about the holiday sitatuon - it was one of the main drivers to going back to court as the previous order wasn't fit for purpose.

I'm all for a peaceful life, and letting things go. So is he. But this is a pattern of behaviour that has been displayed through this child's life, and she has stated in text she is willing to breach the order to get her way.

He really does not want to have to enforce the order if she continues this in to the summer holidays. So, can any of you make suggestions to how to move forward (and please don't suggest that he should let her do what she wants). Maybe resources used to help work out holiday division time? Is there something to help her understand how holidays can be split relatively equally? I don't know. I'm clutching at straws here. There is a small child who loves spending time with her dad and extended family. But it is being regularly sabotaged. This isn't good for anyone.

OP posts:
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2019user44 · 04/03/2020 23:54

I would suggest you simply notify her that if she doesn’t put forward the other dates you will be applying to enforce the order without further notice to her. Give her 7 days, if she doesn’t comply, fill in and send to Court a C79 APplication for Enforcement and send her a copy. Basically with this kind of person in my experience you have to keep taking it back until they get the message that their behaviour has consequences. Unfortunately it is a bit like dealing with a child but your DJ sounds reasonable. If you do take it back get the order amended so that it actually stipulates who has what weeks of each holiday. Basically the less wriggle room the better!

MrsPworkingmummy · 04/03/2020 23:57

Hmmm, a tricky one. This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think age 3 is too young to be away from mum for such a long period of time. My son is 2, and by all accounts, is still my baby...I feel it would be detrimental to him to be away from me for so long. I get where the mother is coming from to be honest.

How long have they been separated? Your DH has obviously moved on from his ex, but that's a lot of change for the child. Perhaps mum is trying to give the child consistency and stability. I'm a teacher too and some of my unhappiest students live between mum and dad. They hate it and wish they had only one home.

For what it's worth, my dh's ex completely ignored their court order and nothing was done about it. At the time, dsd was 6. This was back in 2010ish and the judge recommended we go back when dsd was older and could give her own opinion. At 6, she wanted to stop with her mum and she missed her when she was with us.

SandyY2K · 04/03/2020 23:59

I agree with the above advice. If she gets her way now...it sets the tone for her in the future.

Stick to the court order. She needs to comply.

ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/03/2020 00:10

He is really keen to avoid court again. It has honestly been ao incredibly stressful for him. Last night watching the back and forth of texts I could see how stressed it was making him. He wants to find a way without court - although so far that hasn't worked. He is aware that courts do not like you to keep going back either. So he is mindful of being overly litigious.

MrsP, they were a short relationship. Pregnant after 3 months of dating. I've posted about it on here before. They are very different people. Things never took off, and the relationship fizzled out. She met someone else when the baby was a month old. She introduced that man as daddy. They split up about 9 months ago now.

Mum has never once voiced any concerns about the length of time the child is away. She has had plenty of opportunity to do so. Ovviously her actions show differently 🤷.

He built up contact from literally 20 minutes 3 times a week to where he has had 5 days consecutively. He has never rushed it. He has always been focussed on his daughters needs. She isn't distressed when she is away - quite the opposite. We have facilitated video calls to ease mums anxiety. He has done everything he can but she is absolutely resistent to him being a dad (ultimately that's what it all comes down to from her actions over the years. It has been documented in previous reports).

He isn't even asking for prolonged periods. Simply for the holiday to be split in some way equally.

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ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/03/2020 00:12

Just to clairfy - they split up 9 months ago refers to mum and her new partner. Not my other half. They split up nearly 4 years ago now.

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Sotiredofthislife · 05/03/2020 07:15

She actually argued that a week is monday - sunday

A week is 7 days. A week is Monday to Sunday. It may not be half the holidays but it is a full week.

Therunecaster · 05/03/2020 07:19

My ex and I started with an exact 50/50 split but the kids wanted to come home to me so it never worked.

averythinline · 05/03/2020 07:25

I woudl suggest he stops texting back and forth....nothing gets sorted in text arguments ...

if he wants to avoid court again, then would he suggest mediation- he
would probably have to payfor it... but it can be a really good way of sorting out issues..

Or maybe propose an annual plan....

ultimately if she wont discuss/agree he wil lhave to go back to court....
but the expectation is that he will have tried .......

ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/03/2020 08:13

So tired, a week is 7 days and 7 nights. Monday - Monday. Where does Sunday night go otherwise?
When you go on a weeks holiday, it is booked Monday-Monday or Tuesday-Tuesday etc.

That is a full week.

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ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/03/2020 08:18

If he had 4pm Tuesday, he should be returning Tuesday PM in order for it to be a week.

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Sotiredofthislife · 05/03/2020 08:48

If you start on Monday and push through to the following Monday you are on day 8. I get the 7 night thing from a holiday perspective but you are into the 8th day by the following Monday! Is it worth the fight?

MorningNinja · 05/03/2020 08:57

Your DP needs to start as he means to go on otherwise this will happen each school holiday. It sounds like he's being perfectly reasonable and flexible so this seems more like controlling and manipulating behaviour on her part.

Somerville · 05/03/2020 08:58

She also wouldn't accept that the easter holiday was 16 days, and half of this was 8. She said it was 10 days, so 5 was half.

Does your court order define school holidays differently to your LA? Because if not, in my DC's primary school at least, you're both wrong - school holidays don't begin on the Friday when they break up - the weekends are still officially term time.
Our school holidays (and I think for whole LA) are stated as Monday 6th April to Friday 17th April. Therefore 12 days and a parent splitting that would have 6 days each, with the weekend at either end being determined according to usual pattern. Assuming that's EOW, as is standard, then half the Easter holidays your DH will end up with both weekends, and they'll each get a weekend of half term, etc...

Now maybe the court order defines school holidays as from the instant she finishes school and until the morning she restarts school. In which case he has a point, and they need to return to court, or attempt mediation. But if not then her definition is at least equally valid, since it equals out over the course of a year anyway. The important thing would be to then agree that this is always the pattern, so that your DSD's mother doesn't change the terms based on what suits her, from holiday to holiday.

ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/03/2020 09:09

Between us we have 3 different LA's but all 3 define holidays as friday following school - monday return to school. We have a copy of her nursery holiday dates which state that. As he doesn't have sunday overnights he hs already discounted that night so is counting friday 3rd 3pm - sunday 19th 5pm which are the usual drop off times. Within that there should be a relatively equal split of time. Her proposal was nowhere near it.

As I've stated the order has the stipulation of term time arrangements are suspended during holidays.

He thoroughly believes that she will always play this game to manipulate the holidays to her advantage. Which is why he wants some guidance on how to get her to agree to the pattern. She isn't likely to....

She is just playing games, and that is indefensible.

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Pilot12 · 05/03/2020 09:12

Monday = Day 1
Tuesday = Day 2
Wednesday = Day 3
Thursday = Day 4
Friday = Day 5
Saturday = Day 6
Sunday = Day 7

Monday to Sunday is one week/7 days. If you want the child to stay 7 nights she goes home the following Monday, if it's 7 days I would return on the Sunday evening, having collected first thing Monday morning.

ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/03/2020 09:13

Easter holiday dates from the school...

Splitting holidays: when you can't agree....
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YgritteSnow · 05/03/2020 09:19

You sound very combative tbh. Is he as angry and demanding as you? What does it actually have to do with you? Support him yes but your ranting on here makes you sound far too enmeshed in it all.

Agree with the advice above that those periods of time are too long for a three year old to be away from her main carer, court ordered or not, but I am sure you'll both keep pushing for it anyway.

Somerville · 05/03/2020 09:47

Between us we have 3 different LA's but all 3 define holidays as friday following school - monday return to school.

But does the court order define it thus? Because if not, and you take it back to court on that basis, you may well lose. Especially as it will seem petty (assuming they have EOW in term time) since weekends and school holidays are both 50/50, so it balances out over time anyway.
And you're describing a man getting very stressed and upset over his child mother's stance on start/end weekends, which is a legitimate one that many separated parents follow. It sounds like he's losing the wood for the trees and needs to take a step back, get some perspective, then focus on his toddler's needs. This doesn't make any difference in the long term and his focus should be on the stuff that does - having open communication so that discussions can be civil is much more important than exactly how the 50/50 is split.

mymadworld · 05/03/2020 09:49

I would suggest he/they try to annualise this. So (& best check exact figures with the LA or school) typically it's 13 weeks holiday a year x 7 days is 91 days per year. Half is 45.5 days so whilst it might take a while to work out, I'd be suggesting each proposes a 45 day annual schedule and then sticking to it. You can always pro rata from April for this year. If she doesn't agree to it I would be going back to court before this gets out of hand.

And to the previous poster who said it's too young to be away from mum, this is utter nonsense - we are talking about regular contact with the other PARENT not staying over at a long-lost great aunt once a year Hmm

Clangus00 · 05/03/2020 09:53

He’s going to need to take this back to court. She’s never going to back down.

SoloMummy · 05/03/2020 09:54

I am afraid that my advice is to explain to her that he will return and request that ALL holiday dates contact is agreed in court with no movement moving forward if she doesn't stick to the new order.

And tbh I always think that this is the best way forward as it removes any ambiguity. Ensures equal distribution and you know where you stand. For example, it can state from breaking for spring half term parent A has half of the overnights until school recommences.

Better than all of this.

Emptywallet · 05/03/2020 10:09

Go back to court. That’s is the only way she will learn. Tbh with her behaviour I’d really start to be worried over parent alienation.

And I second getting court agreed dates set in place.

strawberrylipgloss · 05/03/2020 12:15

Your dp is being super reasonable asking which half of the holidays he can have rather than demanding which days.

She's being a cf and I think that if he doesn't go the legal route she will continue doing this and each holiday, his percentage of contact will decrease and he's got years of this to come.

MzHz · 05/03/2020 14:12

Honestly, you can TRY to get through this amicably, but she won’t and you will tear yourselves to pieces trying to stop her bullying you.

So.. the court made a decision for good reasons

You have an order

The only way you’ll get this sorted is to say that the court has made an order, that half is half and as she hadn’t booked a holiday prior to court, and confirmed no advance plans, that she has no right to deny your rights to access

Take her back to court.

That’s what it’s there for

MzHz · 05/03/2020 14:22

He is aware that courts do not like you to keep going back either.

Court also doesn’t like people who completely ignore court orders.

You have all the texts, use them.