Splitting holidays: when you can't agree....

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

Sorry, this turned in to a bit of an epic tale. Apologies....

My other half has just been told he can have half of all school holidays with his daughter (court order states term time contact to be suspended during school holidays. School holidays shall be shared equally between the parties).

Easter will be the first shared holiday. Child is 3, and has spent 5 days with her dad on holidays previously.

Mum isn't happy about the new court order. In fact, it would be fair to say she was furious. The order was made just under 2 weeks ago. My other half decided it would be best to let things settle before broaching how the division of easter will look.

Anyway, she messaged him yesterday and said she had been thinking about the holidays, and she proposed that as the first weekend of easter would have ordinarily been her weekend, she would keep that. Then as the child had a swimming lesson on the tuesday, she propsed dad got from 4pm on the tuesday, until 5pm on the sunday so that she could go home and see what the easter bunny had brought her.

Fine in principle - but this wasn't half of the holiday. He would have 5 nights, while she would have 11! He gently pointed this out by asking where she would like him to have the remaining time.

Well, this did not go down well in the slightest. She eventually offered tuesday 4pm until the monday 5pm. She would not in any way accept that 7 days and nights is a week. She actually argued that a week is monday - sunday. No matter what he pointed out to her she would not back down on this idea. She also wouldn't accept that the easter holiday was 16 days, and half of this was 8. She said it was 10 days, so 5 was half. She actually threw a written hissy fit. She said she would deny contact if he didn't agree to her dates (as in number of days contact). Then she started ranting about the court order saying she only had to give 28 days notice to keep the child longer (previous holiday arrangements were 28 days notice for either party with no opportunity to say no to it provided notice given. Current order has no such stipulation). Then the rant went on to saying she had a holiday booked so she wasn't giving him any more time and that was that. This was despite being at court less than 2 weeks ago and being asked of any issues for the easter holiday and her saying no.

The upshot is, well, who knows really. He agreed to the dates she suggested but is asking her to figure out where she wants the additional contact to be. He has given her free reign of dates to whatever works for her. She states she won't be agreeing to any other times though. He has suggested him having longer over the May half term but shot down in flames over that suggestion. Also suggested putting the time on to the summer holidays. Ignored completely over that one. She has a strong history of trying to control and manipulate the orders to her benefit. So none of this behaviour was a big surprise to either me or my other half.

Is he being unreasonable to think half of holidays should mean half of holidays (within reason obviously as sometimes things can't work out that way)? He has no objection to splitting the time up, he doesn't mind if she has 9 days and he has 7 ultimately - it's the issue over how she will do this at every single holiday. She has derailed every extended holiday time he has had with his daughter. Recent examples include her not wanting him to have 1 extra contact day at christmas (he had 26th/27th court ordered and then no contact again til his normal weekend of 3rd, so as family live over 4 hours away he wanted to extend from sunday night to monday night to facilitate visit. She didn't like it but the order allowed for it with it's wording. So she called the police saying she didn't know where the child was. Even though she did...). She also didn't allow him to have any extra time in the feb half term, which he left as it was back in court imminently.

He is a teacher, so the holidays are their quality time together. So he obviously feels strongly about the holiday sitatuon - it was one of the main drivers to going back to court as the previous order wasn't fit for purpose.

I'm all for a peaceful life, and letting things go. So is he. But this is a pattern of behaviour that has been displayed through this child's life, and she has stated in text she is willing to breach the order to get her way.

He really does not want to have to enforce the order if she continues this in to the summer holidays. So, can any of you make suggestions to how to move forward (and please don't suggest that he should let her do what she wants). Maybe resources used to help work out holiday division time? Is there something to help her understand how holidays can be split relatively equally? I don't know. I'm clutching at straws here. There is a small child who loves spending time with her dad and extended family. But it is being regularly sabotaged. This isn't good for anyone.

I've got a similar court order, and we split contact into term time and holiday. There are two weeks of holiday at Easter and we have a week each running Saturday to Saturday. This leaves Sunday as a spare to sort out a return to school staff.

I will just say that this was really damaging for my son to start with at a similar age. He was only 2/3 years old. He’s used to it now, but he would mentally shut down before and after going. He has problems with trust as he would be taken away crying and screaming for me.

Sorry but I agree with her.. a week is Monday to Sunday.

Enforce the order. If you don’t, then it won’t get nipped in the bud. It’s a straightforward process and he can self represent.

Enforce the order. If you don’t, then it won’t get nipped in the bud. It’s a straightforward process and he can self represent.

Agreed.

DP recieved an email from his barrister today, copying him in to a chain of emails from his ex, the court and his barrister. She was trying to say that the order was wrong and she should be able to give 28 days notice for holidays. Barrister said nope, wasn't agreed to. So now DP has popped in his reply about the division of holidays. It will be interesting to see any response tomorrow. She won't be happy he was copied in at all.

So is Sunday night part of this week? Next week? Or the Bermuda triangle? A week includes the 7 nights.

Hmmm - I have a male friend in a similar situation & all I will say is that his fighting to see his dd for long stretches was more about his need to see her than what was good for the child - she was 2.5 at the time. Loved her dad but quite obviously wanted mum (because she was primary carer) after a few hours & would get very distressed at not being able to see mum.
Eventually this man stopped 'fighting' his ex & they agreed to pick up every Friday evening, overnight & back to mum by tea on Saturday & no holidays until the child got older. His dd was infinitely happier with this & as she got older they revised things to eow, wed. & fri. evenings & short holidays (5 days sort of things). She's 10 now & next year they're going to do a 10 day holiday.
I'm honestly not sure that what's suggested would be in your sdc's best interest but I can see that if the dm is being genuinely troublesome as opposed to just being concerned about her 3 year old being away from her then your oh may not have much choice to to impose the court order.
I'm generally all for dm's calming the heck down about stuff but to be honest, from this dm's point of view she's being asked to hand over her 3 year old to a man she doesn't know very well & whom she hasn't parented with (I think you said it was a very brief relationship?) for fairly long stretches of time. That can't be easy.

Have you seen the app Our Family Wizard? Google it and take a look. It keeps all the texting backwards and forwards in one place. The app keeps records, you can upload documents etc, and they are allowable in court should it go back there.

@mymadworld totally agree! It's ridiculous that in this day and age people still believe children shouldn't be away from mum.. the only time this applies is if baby is breastfed. Parents should have equal rights to their child while in a relationship or if that relationship breaks down (unless of course there is safety issues involved). This woman is obviously using her child as a weapon and sounds highly manipulative and unhinged if she truly believes she has the right to decide. Op I don't think you'll get anywhere trying to reason with her, especially if she's shown this behaviour in the past. Mediation or court seem your dp's only option again unfortunately. Which is a real shame. When parents can't work together calmly and efficiently it's only the child that suffers in the end. Good luck!

My DP has his DC 50/50

Their DC was 3 moths old when they stated that pattern. Soon it developed to 65% for him and 45% for mum. And that was DC-mums request, she was too busy to look after their DC. DC is 4 years old today.
DC never been suffering from spending most of time with dad. DC never asked for mum or cried for mum even when dad will not let him do something naughty.
Its not true that children always wants their mum for all the time. Depends about the situation.

I'm not saying children shouldn't be away from mum. I'm saying most young children cope better with majority time spent in one place with their primary carer be this mum/dad/other.
In my years working in the therapy field most younger children & a lot of older ones really just wanted one main base - for some kids this was with mum & for some it was with dad. And in most cases children were too confused & worried about upsetting the adults to articulate their needs.
Young children need a primary attachment figure - almost two centuries of psychological investigation supports this - and a huge amount of separated parents don't seem to realise this.
So many parents think 'fighting' to have their kids more is doing the right thing but it's not always what is in the child's best interests.

I agree with the poster who says he is quite aggressive.

He split up with the Mum before the baby was born adn for every Mum on this board being asked to give up their new born baby in the first year is unbelievably difficult.

Your post is all about his rights as a father, his DD may well be fine with this but the aggression and refusal to compromise even a little bit and let it have a bit of lead in is quite present in your posts.

That you can argue what a week is and get down to hours is bordering on petty. This is about him wanting her for 50% in his work holidays because that suits his job not whether that suits his daughter or how it sits with her mother.

So if Mum wants a week of holiday during a week that is not his school holidays is he going to allow that?

This comes across as passive aggressive bullying via the court system - DP wants, goes to court , gets what he wants and then no negotation striaght in this is what he will have on his terms.

If getting the court order caused him so much stress then that is even more reason to get it enforced. Otherwise, what was the point?

@stuffedpeppers

He split up with the Mum before the baby was born adn for every Mum on this board being asked to give up their new born baby in the first year is unbelievably difficult.

He did not split up. I briefly posted the relationship fizzled out - you can search my name and read previous posts. But he didn't leave. She moved him in, wanted to keep benefits, asked him to get a flat so she could keep the benefits, then bit by bit she stopped arranging to see him.

Your post is all about his rights as a father, his DD may well be fine with this but the aggression and refusal to compromise even a little bit and let it have a bit of lead in is quite present in your posts.

*I quote my opening post, "He agreed to the dates she suggested but is asking her to figure out where she wants the additional contact to be. He has given her free reign of dates to whatever works for her. She states she won't be agreeing to any other times though". How is that refusal to compromise?

I also quote my opening post, "Is he being unreasonable to think half of holidays should mean half of holidays (within reason obviously as sometimes things can't work out that way)? He has no objection to splitting the time up, he doesn't mind if she has 9 days and he has 7 ultimately". Is that also refusal to compromise?

That you can argue what a week is and get down to hours is bordering on petty. This is about him wanting her for 50% in his work holidays because that suits his job not whether that suits his daughter or how it sits with her mother.

Half of all school holidays is a recognised standard court order. He isn't asking for anything special. There is no argument on what a week is. A week is a week. Half of holidays is half of holidays. The only people who wish to argue this are those who want it to benefit their point. If he wanted it to suit his job (he works in a Jewish school) he would be asking for a whole load of random Jewish holidays to see her as he is off for all of those. He could have asked to pick her up at 2pm on fridays as she doesn't go to nursery on that day, and isn't at school for another 18 months. He doesn't. Instead he sits in school long past the other teachers finish time (he works near her home rather than his home) and waits to collect her at a time that her mum stipulated in court (4.30).

So if Mum wants a week of holiday during a week that is not his school holidays is he going to allow that?

Of course he would. Where have I suggested otherwise?

This comes across as passive aggressive bullying via the court system - DP wants, goes to court , gets what he wants and then no negotation striaght in this is what he will have on his terms.

I refer you back to paragraph 4 and 5.

Today his barrister copied him in to an email to the court where she suggested the court needed to explain the order again to the mother. This was following on from yesterdays emails between mum, court and the barrister.

He will wait to see what she comes back with and then see if they can agree the May and summer holidays. If she starts being difficult over those then he will go down the enforcement route. He has evidence in the form of her own emails now, so he feels more confident to take that route if required. He had to enforce after she turned him away at the door on fathers day despite having clear arrangements from the court order. He just felt that the enforcement was £215 thrown away because it was basically a don't do it again, where as she has done it in so many little (and tried to do it in big ways but those are detailed in previous posts so I won't go in to those!).

Hopefully it won't be required, and the court reiterating what half of all school holidays and that there is no 28 day notice anymore will be sufficient. He can only hope....

I agree stuffed peppers. Its coming across as the fathers rights come first with the child's needs secondary.

You can feel how you like.

Luckily, I know DP has consistently gone above and beyond to do the right thing for his daughter. It was one of the things that helped me along in committing to him.

It wouldn't matter what he did, some people here would disagree. You can not be a father and be right. You don't see your child enough. You see them too much 🤷. It no longer bothers me when people think their opinion is gospel. I am asking for advice on how to move forward. Not on the level of contact cafcass and the court found to be in the best interest of the child.

Thanks for those who have provided useful suggestions.

I'll come back if there is any update.

OP, all she will get is a don’t do it again. But what it also does is build a pattern (if she continues to withhold court ordered contact). And the courts won’t keep allowing breach after breach.

So my view is enforce the order.

If the child starts to get distressed and the child is adversely impacted by her time away from the mother (for all the posters stating that I have seen nothing on this thread that proves the child is in anyway distressed) then it may well be cause to review what’s in place.

Until such time, the current arrangements need to be implemented. And there is no proof that doing so is not acting in the best interests of the child

Oh and if Cafcass are involved and the child is also in nursery, if the child is impacted by this set up then it will be picked up by professionals. So many people think in these threads think they have a right to play ‘god’ (for want of a better word) with every case of contact. Here’s a father who has fought for contact and actively wants this level of involvement. And the Op is getting hammered.

If the OP had come on here stating that her partner never saw the child as the mother wouldn’t allow it, the thread would be filled with posters telling the Op that she’s with a waster and if he was a half decent father he would have taken the matter to court. There really is no winning on these boards.

It’s not about whether you can ‘win’ on this board. Rather, it’s arguing over a matter of hours with the child and the potential damage that may cause. Not damage just to the child, but on-going relationships between parents if absolutely everything is a fight down to the last minute.

All children - of any age - are impacted by the constant to-ing and fro-ing between homes. Too many parents pretend otherwise as they get caught up in ‘rights’ and court orders. Will the child be upset in a few years that dad fought for those hours (and in doing so maintained the levels of animosity) or be able to see through her mother who wouldn’t allow her that extra few hours with her dad? Which way will it go?!

Personally, I would aim to be magnanimous, to swallow some of the frustration and anger and focus on reducing animosity rather than ramping it back up.

This all seems to be about parental rights. What might be great for the child seems to be being lost. Having two parents fighting and engaging legal representatives over things like how long a week actually is will not be good for any child. I think 8 days away from the parent a child normally lives with, aged just 3, is probably too much. For the child.

I'd try to step back from the scenario and think about what might be best for a 3 year old little girl. Which incidentally might not be right for a 6, 10 or 14 year old. Now isn't the time to fight over a few nights here and there.

Incidentally, am saying this as a step parent whose husband was manipulated out of fair access to his children on many occasions, so I do understand the frustration.

Poor child! She is not a object to be passed around. She has feelings and to be honest no parent here or step parent is putting this child’s needs first. It’s more each parent trying to prove they are entitled to this and that then what’s best for the child. Actually few sorry for courts trying to sort these cases out when parents behave like this.

Pick up on Tuesday and then text you’ll bring back after the 8 days as per the court order & as was advices there weren’t any issues in court with this Easter

May back holidays do the first half and same with summer, do the first three weeks

If she calls the police show them the text and court order

adn for every Mum on this board being asked to give up their new born baby in the first year is unbelievably difficult

Yeah and yet presumably its sooooo easy for dads to have 0 time with their kids isnt it. Christ.

This child is 3 and there is a court order in place. Regardless of whatever anyone else thinks the court has stipulated that the child should spend 50/50 and that’s what should happen. Not 60/40 because of xyz

It’s not going to be harmful to the child to spend half the holidays with the father

Yeah and yet presumably its sooooo easy for dads to have 0 time with their kids isnt it. Christ

I’m sure it’s not easy but it’s not even close to being on the same level. Biologically, emotionally, or physically.
I couldn't and didn’t even want to let my babies out of my sight for the first year of their lives. My ExH, nowhere near felt that way.