Is it right or wrong to seek custody?

[Magda72]

Hi guys - would love genuine non judgmental input here. I'm only asking a question that I, as a mother am struggling with & would really love to see what others think, so constructive input only please 😊.
Dp and I are together 3 years & he's divorced 5 years & has three boys aged 12, 15 & 18.
He's self employed & his exw never worked & still doesn't. Therefore he was & still is their main provider. If he doesn't work no money comes in so when they divorced they agreed to her being the RP & him being the financial provider. His work has him traveling a lot so he sees them eow, all banks holidays, does all the school stuff & takes them one on one for a full week every summer. He also does half xmas etc., takes them all on one big holiday a year & a few mini trips. He really does his best to compensate not being able to see them during the week.
Thing is, over the years he has become increasingly concerned at his exw's parenting. He gives her massive maintenance but she still makes everything about money, never seems to have enough & is constantly telling the boys he's stingy. She takes them on no holidays or day trips, doesn't engage with their schools, doesn't bring them to school if she doesn't feel like it, pulls them out of activities when she gets bored driving them or takes a dislike to a coach/trainer. The youngest has some learning difficulties which she refuses to deal with & the eldest tells dp it's an ongoing battle with her to limit junk food in the house & that she goes to her room early every night leaving him to 'police' the other two regarding screen time & bed time. She has also told them terrible lies about their dad & I & about my kids.
When dp tries to discuss any of the above with her he gets told to f**k off & gets accused of abandoning her. He didn't. They split mutually & things were civil enough until he met me & moved on.
Dp is seriously thinking of trying to get custody of them.
Thing is - I agree but I don't. I think the woman has major issues & I do not agree with her parenting at all. However, she is their mother & she loves them even though it's misguided & she uses them as weapons against their dad. I put myself in her shoes & I think of how awful I'd feel if having agreed to me being the RP my exh then decided I wasn't good enough to parent. Morally I'm caught, because how do you draw the line between emotional abuse & bad but good enough parenting?
The heart of the matter is that her parenting and dp's don't align. For eg he thinks third level is very important, she doesn't. He thinks activities are very important & she doesn't. He thinks them learning to pay their own way a little is very important & she insists on babying them. He thinks they should respect money, she thinks it magically appears out of nowhere.
Dp is very stressed with the situation & I basically agree with him. However as a mum I can also see the flipside & think he sort of needs to deal with the fact that he chose to have kids with a woman whose core values he didn't share & to some extent he has to just face up to the fact that his kids may not become the people he would like them to be because they have half their dm's DNA & that having made the decision to let her be the RP he sort of has to live with that & that taking them from her could do more harm than good.
I'd love to know what others think or has anyone been in a similar conflict.
On the one hand is it bad/negligent parenting to take kids from a dm because you don't like the way she parents? Alternatively is it bad/negligent parenting to leave them exposed in what you think is a less than ideal situation, when you feel you could give them what you think would be a happier, better life with better principles?
For what it's worth she will not go to mediation or family therapy of any description & will not acknowledge that her actions & words are damaging the boys' ability to enjoy their time with either parent.
I'm not sure I've explained myself very well here but I'm hoping some of you will grasp what I'm trying to say.

At their ages no court needed. They are old enough to decide.
My ds decided at 12 to go nc with his df after seeing the light on his parenting.

And exw has had it bloody cushdy imo....

Is your DP thinking that the kids would live with you during the week and Mum at weekends? I agree that different parenting styles are happening here, so Mum is just as entitled to parent 'her way'
What do the kids think of the current set up? Are they happy?

Has anyone asked the kids what they want to happen/if they are happy?

It does sound like she (ex wife) is on an easy ticket...

They are too old now for this to go through the courts as if they don't want to live with him, they won't. Even if it did go to court it doesn't sound like his grounds are in any way strong enough for a change of residence to be ordered.

Talk to the children about whether they'd want 50/50. I don't think going for any more than that would be sensible, even if it were possible. Shes still their mum at the end of the day and nothing you've said sounds awful as opposed to just differences in opinions and parenting styles.

As PP said you wouldn't get custody through courts at this age either unless the children decided they wanted to or there were major safeguarding concerns.
Presumably DPs job isn't set to change so he'll still be away a lot, it doesn't seem ideal to take them away from an available parent and put them with someone who isn't their parent without major issues meaning its necessary.

What do the DC want?

Also even if he became the resident parent the standard minimum would be every other weekend and one overnight per week with their NRP so it wouldn't be 'full custody' (custody is known as residency now) it would still be 4 nights every 2 weeks minimum with their mum.

You may find it comes across as him trying to get out of paying maintenance now the harder younger stage of bringing them up is out of the way too.

Surely these things were a bigger issue when they were younger and needing more 'parenting' rather than now when they're all either mostly independent or close to bring independent age wise?

The youngest is 12 so the critical period is finished surely? She may not have parental ideals that align with yours but not showing major concern in third level education or extra curriculars is not neglect in any way, shape or form in SS's eyes.

Also OP if he works away a lot how would he look after them? Would it be you?

I would just ask the boys what they would like to do - be careful not to be judgemental or imply you think their mum isn’t doing a bad job. I would maybe just say you love having them there and they’re old enough that if they’d like to be with you more then they can.
That way you can gauge what they want or if they’re unhappy with the current set up

Thanks for the replies guys.
Firstly - the kids are very happy when with their dad & while they would live with us dp would sell or liquidate his business in order to be home most of the time & then take a job locally.
I feel that the kids are in a total bind with their dm in that she has the victim role nailed down to a T. To me it seems like their relationship with her (especially the two eldest) has developed into one whereby they are her caretakers. She's constantly exhausted, worn out, unable to cope, needing to go to bed early, needing spa days etc. - this is what they tell dp. She says things like looking after them means she's had to sacrifice her own life! This stuff really worries dp as they are left feeling really guilty for merely existing!
Personally I'd say they'd rather be with dp but would be afraid to leave her.
We were all on holidays for a week recently & she phoned one or other of them every day & if they ignored a call - say if we were out to dinner or something she just kept on ringing!
The eldest who sees through her more will hopefully be going to uni soon which is great for him but worrying for the other two as he's the one who insists on getting to school, 'polices' the junk food, limits screen time etc.
He's also the one who keeps dp informed as to what's going on. He recently told dp that he's now doing all the laundry. That's great in one way but in another he inferred that he has to do it as if he doesn't she'll happily send them out to school in stained & dirty clothes.
50/50 wouldn't work as we live in a different town & school would be an issue. One of his sisters recently suggested boarding school as an option - her logic being that weekends/holidays would then be 50/50 - but dp not very keen on that.
It's just so difficult & stressful for everyone.
I wish she would agree to mediation but as I said it's just a no go as far as she's concerned - no one is going to tell her how to parent is all he gets if he suggests it.

@BounceAndClimb - I heard someone recently say that people can be better at certain stages of parenting than others. In this case I think things were fine when the kids were little in that that was the parenting she enjoyed. She doesn't seem to enjoy or want to facilitate the teenage years. She forced them to give up all the sports they were ever interested in as she refuses to drive them to training during the winter &/or she told them it was unsafe.
She won't engage with them & dp has already had big issues with the 15 yo & porn watching as she lets them stay up unattended & lets them take their devices to bed. Lots of 15 yos have access to porn but when he tried to speak to her about it she told dp her son would never do anything like that & that dp had a filthy mind!?!
The eldest really wants to go to uni but has told dp she's trying to dissuade him. Not going to uni isn't an issue in itself but it is an issue if a kid wants to go & is being actively dissuaded because his mother would miss him too much.
Also the maintenance isn't an issue as he also bought her a house & a car & gave her a cash lump sum on divorce & was ordered by the courts to only pay child & not spousal maintenance.

They are getting older now. Perhaps your dp could ask them if they would like to live with him.

I agree with pp that the dcs are all old enough to choice where they want to be.

It sounds like the original decision was great for that time but maybe the dcs needs have changed now. I would say that you and DP need to have a full and frank discussion about whether you want the children with you full-time, 50:50 and then let them know that they are welcome if thats what they want.

Yes @fourplusfour - I think that's sort of it. Regardless of parenting styles the kids teenage needs are not being met by their dm & she's not open to discussion about it.
The kids would of course be welcome here but dp & I are both in agreement that there's no point in them being here unless he can sort work out as it's their dad they really need - not me.
I think he probably needs to have some one on one time with them individually to try & get a better sense of where their heads are at.

The kids are 12, 15 & 18. Too late for court.

You may not agree with how mum parents but it’s upto her (just as she has no say in how you / their dad parent).

I would ask the kids and go from there.

How would someone go about getting custody of an 18 year old adult? As pps have said they are old enough to decide where they want to live- ask them

@twattymctwatterson - obv I wasn't referencing the 18 year old in that.
And @NorthernSpirit - yes you're right. I suppose my question really was when do you decide that a different parenting style has become a big problem?
Personally I think it's probably when the kids needs aren't being met & the parent in question is just not open to negotiation.
I personally don't agree with some of what my exh does & if I feel it's impacting on the kids I tell him & we discuss it & vice versa.
The problem here is there is NO scope for discussion.
Dp tried to discuss supporting the eldest re uni again this morning & was told, again, to f**k off & not tell her what to do with her kids! 🙁
As you say - go to the kids & see what they have to say.

Oh the EW sounds a dream.

My OH has a vitriolic EW to deal with (I don’t get involved) you can’t reason with her. Everything has to be done her way.

I would put everything in writing (my OH’s EW was sending messages on scraps of paper or pages of vitriolic text rants). A judge saw these and she’s now only to communicate via email. If she can’t be civil and pleasant she’s lost the right to communicate via normal channels.

Good luck, it’s not easy. Keep it child focused.

Is the 18 year old off to uni this time?
The 15 year old and 12, I think, are old enough to make their own minds up, no need for court.
If it went to court there is no case against the mother anyway, just different parenting techniques.
Your dp has had 5 years to challenge the dc main home, at a time that would have been beneficial to them as she wasn't interested in their education.
Trips and holidays are great but support and encouragement with schoolwork is what they need up to age 18.
Has either parent been there to supervise homework?

@gillybeanz - the 18 yo will be going to uni next year. He's always been school focused & very happy to work so the issues around homework etc. have only really come to light in the last 2 years since the 15yo started secondary. Dp has always done the parent evenings, parent/teacher meetings etc. so he stays on top of things that way. He also phones the younger two every evening to go through homework with them as it was brought to his attention by the schools that it was not being done. When he tackled his ex on this she said she was too tired in the evenings to sort homework; that it's not important & that the kids are overworked in school as it is! She's never been to a secondary school parent/teacher meeting & has no interest in going.
As @NorthernSpirit says about her oh's exw, there's just no reasoning with her, no middle ground at all.

How can your OH justify how bad the education the ex is giving when ultimately, from what you say, she has brought up a mature, caring and intelligent 18yo?

What is sounds like is that you are saying is that your OH has high aspirations for his children and is frustrated because he feels that his ex is not giving the children the opportunities that he thinks they will need to achieve great things .

I do get your OH anxieties but he is wrong that he has much less influence because he doesn't see them as often. What they have, which in many ways is priceless, is the direct experience of the contrast between two totally different households and lifestyles. They can see what happens when you work hard and have goals, and when you don't. What better way to be motivated to do well and become achiever, which it seem is exactly what your eldest SC is doing.

Does your OH really want to give them the image that it's ok to give up a job and take a risk of looking for one locally, which might not be the right job for him just so that he can be behind them constantly telling them what to do? Does he really think that's what they'll want?

What would happened if he gave up his job, ended up with one much less well paid, doing something he doesn't enjoy but giving all his attention to his kids who actually feel bossed around and suffocated by his expectations so that 6 months later, they decide they actually would rather live with their mum?

He needs to accept the situation, but more importantly trust that his kids will do well because even if not as present as he wished, he is showing to be a good role model to them and that's priceless.

All good points @swingofthings but in truth he doesn't have overly high aspirations for them. He just wants them to be able to make the choices they want to make & what's happening in their dm's house is that she's shutting them down for what seems to be her own agenda.
I know everyone parents differently but if you're limiting your kids for your own selfish needs then surely that's wrong?
The eldest IS a hard worker but he has no friends (another worrying point) as she won't let him go to a party/pub/etc. & he's a 'good' kid in that he doesn't rebel. I don't think everyone needs to be really outgoing but this guy literally has no friends that he hangs around with, not one. Neither does the 15 yo who is more sociable but who is again not let out.
I know it sounds bizarre what I'm describing - but it truly is bizarre. She stopped the 15yo playing rugby this year as she didn't like his team members & thought they might be a bad influence & moved the youngest into a different school without telling dp because she didn't like the other parents! That's exactly the explanation she gave him. She also gave the poor kid no notice. Told him at the end of August he was starting a new school the following week.
Dp tried talking to her but no go & all kids say they just can't face arguing with her & her losing her temper.
Her behaviour does seem to have escalated over the last 2 years & that's a concern. If dp wasn't concerned people would be calling him negligent. I do wonder if she's suffering from untreated depression.
When I said that he may have to face the fact that his children may not grow up to be the people he would hope them to be what I meant was that he may have to face the fact that his influence is limited & it is. If she was positively reinforcing his role as their dad that would be one thing but she's not & it's very hard to know how much of that should be let go.

My parents didn't once 'do homework' with me or check up on my homework in secondary school. If I hadn't have done it there would have been consequences at school. How will teenagers learn any responsibility being babied? I got straight A's and A*'s, and to be honest I doubt I would have if I'd been pestered and nagged about studying all the time, it would have made me resent doing it.

Also the only club I went to I started independently at 14 because I wanted to, and mostly walked there.
I wouldn't want to be quite as hands off as my parents were, but equally it taught me a lot of independence and life skills.
Just because you do things differently doesn't mean your way is right or the only way. They are her children at the end of the day, if she was genuinely bad as a parent then why has the adult step child not moved to yours, or the 16 year old for that matter.
I'm sure there's a lot of things she doesn't agree with about how your DP parents too.

You say at the beginning that it suited him for her to any RP and look after the children so he could work and earn money. So please take any judgement away from her about that, because her doing that has enabled him to earn the money that funds the “holidays and trips”. And I say that as a mother who works.
My ex pays for “holidays and trips” and the children think he is amazing meanwhile i fund the school uniform and the meals and the parking for hospital appointments and the haircuts and the ...you get the gist, all the boring but essential stuff.

If he can totally reorganise his life to spend more time with his children then fab. But why should it be all or nothing? Why doesn’t he go for a gradual increase in contact instead?