SC Manners

[user1476993639]

Hi,

I (25f) )have been with my DP (33m) for over a year now and first met his 7 year old DD 6 months ago.

At first, everything was smooth...the child was polite and seemed happy to see me when visiting etc.

DP and I moved in together a couple of months ago now (btw, unsure of relevance but this was into the house he used to live with his ex and daughter). Obviously, we are all spending a lot more time together.

As of late, I have been avoiding this time on purpose, especially around meal times, because his DD's table manners are absolutely horrendous! She doesn't even cut her food, much preferring to chew off large parts sometimes holding it in her hands. She speaks with her mouth full, chews with her mouth open, doesn't sit still in her chair, sometimes gets up and goes for a wander around, often spilling food all over....and often she doesn't even finish the plate. Yet DP still lets her have dessert/pudding!!! The chomping and lip smacking alone has lead me to stop eating out in public with her.

Growing up, manners and table etiquette were instilled within all my siblings and I from a very early age. I can not believe she has got to the age of 7 and is able to behave in such a way.

The last thing I sometimes want to do when I get home from work is cook a dinner - compared to say a year ago when I would eat out most nights or order in. But I'm consciously wanting to ensure DP's daughter gets all the goodness from a meal that she needs and deserves. So after sometimes spending an hour in the kitchen I feel totally disrespected when she can't even sit nicely to eat it, leaving it even, with me asking the question "why do I even bother?!" Then I also don't get the support from my DP as he rewards such behaviour with a treat!

AIBU?!?!

I have raised this - tactfully - with DP already, and his response was that he wants his DD to enjoy being a child for now, and not to have such rules unnecessarily enforced on her as she can learn this as she gets older.

My concern is that when will that time come?! Surely building on skills such as cutting up food properly, using a knife and fork, using a napkin, are all behaviours which would stand her in good stead for later life if taught and reinforced now at an early age?!

I don't know what to do?! I'm in no position to offer any form of parenting or discipline - she's not my child. But I really don't know how much longer I can go keeping silent before I end up seriously blowing up in my DP's face about it.

I feel that this could begin to drive a wedge between me and my DP, to the point where I can't eat with him when we have his DD with us as well.

Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

This is not all about you. Why do your needs and rules trump everyone else's?

Whilst table manners have value, relationships are far more important.
You don't want her around - that will never happen. If you can't deal with that, you need to leave.

You don't have to spend ages cooking.
There is NO reason why she should have to eat everything.
Pudding should not be a treat or reward for eating everything.

She's 7 - she's never going to live up to your exacting standards.
Relax, back off and consider if you are really up for this.

I think the above posters are being totally unfair to the OP. She isn't being heavy handed. She tried to raise it tactfully, even admitted she didn't feel comfortable 'offering parenting or discpline'. But she is silently cracking up - and the household is just not going to work if she doesn't speak up.

Again I do think this is about adjustment. It's hard, but the SM shouldn't be the ONLY person adjusting, and there needs to be some respect and some cooperation with her which means yes, some rules. It doesn't happen overnight. The SM may want to back off in some areas, and speak up in others.

If a child starts a new school, they have to adjust to different teachers. You wouldn't be telling the child that a new teacher can't do things differently would you? A household is similar, although of course there are emotions and loyalties that have built up so there is always time and allowances while the 'new' household takes shape. But it must be allowed to take shape, otherwise it is doomed and that will not be the SMs fault but the parent.

bananas - absolutely, well said.
To all those parents who have said that it's just the father's views that matter - you're wrong. It's a blend of everyone's views that matter in the household. Just because the SM is not a biological parent, doesn't mean that she doesn't have a say in her own home! I'm not sure that you all would put up with your own suggestions if the tables were turned....

I think the above posters are being totally unfair to the OP.

Assume you mean me. If you read my post correctly you will see I wasn't responding to the OP but to posters advising that her rules were to be followed "no excuses" etc.

I'm not sure that you all would put up with your own suggestions if the tables were turned.

I sure as hell would be holding the door open for any new partner who thought they could come in and change how my family operated after living with me a couple of months!

Obviously, adjustment needs time. Patience and consideration. But adjustment does need to happen, from children, parent and step parent. And both adults are in charge. Whether they like it or not.
I do totally agree with this. It is inevitable that one a new member joins the family, whoever they are, some adjustments will need to be made.

The problem is when a SM comes in and within only a few weeks, wants to start imposing rules that suits her and her only when these rules are not really essential.

I think it is the best way to bring in resentment and for children to turn against the perfect SM who does so much for them but gets no consideration back, which is what we read in most threads here

In this case, OP has know the children only 6 months, and moved in only 4 months later. That's very little time to start adjusting. After only 2 months, she is already judging the children quite unpleasantly and wants to change some rules on the only basis that SHE had a different upbringing.

The problem here is that resentment is already building up because OP considers that as she is the one cooking for the family, she should have a say over how the food is being eaten. Hence why the best thing to do is to inform her OH that he can cook for his daughter when she is there.

As to the issue of table manners, I went through exactly the same, so similar, it could have been my SM writing the post 40 years ago! My SM was obsessed with table manners and mine left to be desired. I used to feel spied on during meals as she seemed all focused on every move I made. My dad used to tell her to relax, but she couldn't, so meals were often very tense and I lost the pleasure I had to sit at the table with my dad and talked about my week.

Not surprisingly, I've grown up to have decent table manners in public. I also brought up my children to enjoy meal times rather than making them yet another time to be formal, and yet, they had dreadful table manners, and still not great at home now they are teenagers, but if we are out with family/restaurant, they know to behave perfectly well.

You really need to pick your battles OP because the last thing you want to have your SD already resenting you whilst your OH thinks you are being unreasonable, even if he goes along with what you insist on to please you.

Just because the SM is not a biological parent, doesn't mean that she doesn't have a say in her own home!
It also doesn't mean that she can expect everyone to change their ways when they don't believe in the value of these changes just to please her. It's all about compromises, and the lesser need to make any, the easier everyone will adjust.

If this was the only issue, I would say that it could be easily resolved with time, but like other posters, I too get the feeling that this is only one problem OP has with the girl, and next will be something else she wants her to change just to suit her needs.

I still maintain that OP is unhappy because she doesn't really want the child in the picture. Not really because of table manners.

But on this thing of adjustments: what I did about my chap moving in:
1 - Gave my kids a say. If they hadnt wanted him to move in with us then I wouldn't have accepted his proposal and I wouldn't have invited him to move in. Not until they left home, at least, because their wellbeing is my first responsibility.
2- Once established that they did, we agreed to kind of staggered trial periods - for all of us. First him coming for some weekends. Then a two week holiday all together. Then him staying for a month prior to renting his own home out. He and I agreed that if at any of those stages it got really rocky, he would move back to his flat for a while and we'd delay moving in and our marriage.
3- The children and I thought carefully about the unwritten rules in our family. And then we wrote them down. (All phrased as positives, not negatives. So, "we speak to each other kindly and with respect" rather than "no shouting or swearing".) Then agreed that anyone in our family can gently remind anyone else in our family if they're forgetting one of our rules. We started this on holiday - so on neutral territory, which worked well.

• since he moved in we've added or clarified a few things.
• table manners aren't mentioned though!

I agree that table manners are probably the most useful things you can teach your child.
However your DP doesnt agree .....and she is his child...
must be a bit weird for the child coming to visit in what was her family home?

I agree that table manners are probably the most useful things you can teach your child.

Nah there's loads of shit way more useful than sodding table manners.

In fact table manners serve no practical purpose at all.

" In fact table manners serve no practical purpose at all."

sit opposite someone who eats with their mouth open and then tell me that Jen...:)

Oh I have done. It's their business. I've yet to see anyone'a food fall out of their mouth while doing it.

The issue is actually what each of us mean by 'table manners'.

A foundation of kindness and respect is important, and this manifests at mealtimes. So, for example, coming to the table when called without a phone in hand, thanking whoever cooked for the meal and helping lay or clear the table. And from the cook's side, making sure that everyone's dietary needs and reasonable preferences are catered for.

However 'table manners' can become more of an etiquette thing (as OP stated) and used to subtly 'other' people who don't know the rules or don't have the physical or cognitive ability to follow them. So there I disagree with them being important to teach young children. Which fork to use - children don't attend formal dinners so they don't need to learn that until just before leaving home. Finishing everything on the plate - actually, stop eating when you're full is a much healthier message. Eating food with fingers - the majority of the world do, actually! And most families in the UK eat pizza, chicken drumsticks and the like with fingers. As long as hands are washed before and after, that's fine in my home.

Mouth open while chewing is a tricky one. The truth is that many children do it, but not out of lack of consideration - it is involuntary. The problem if you keep reminding them is they concentrate so much on keeping their mouths closed that they then don't talk. I would rather have a lively conversation with a bit of accidental open mouthed chewing over a family meal than sit in silence with everyone being very careful not to expose what they chew.

I agree that table manners are probably the most useful things you can teach your child.
It wouldn't even make the shortlist of the most useful things you can teach your child!

And the range of acceptable table manners is very broad. The OP imposing her own exceptionally rigid standards is not helping the situation, it's making it worse. Rigid standards are not better. I have had dinner with a friend who constantly reminded her children throughout the meal to keep their elbows off the table - why? Who actually cares about such thing? Why does that even matter? All it does is create conflict where none needs to be.

Clearing your plate is an out-dated and unhealthy message - nothing to do with manners. And why would you reward children who eat more with more food? That isn't manners, it's controlling behaviour!

If you don't want the child around, everything they do will become irritating.

Not clearing your plate is perceived as being ungrateful to the cook. It's as simple as "i slaved over that stove and you can't even eat the whole meal!" The answer to that is to make smaller portions for children.

My dad's table manners are far worse than DSCs'... My DP hates sitting opposite Dad at family meals :-)

A foundation of kindness and respect is important, and this manifests at mealtimes. So, for example, coming to the table when called without a phone in hand, thanking whoever cooked for the meal and helping lay or clear the table. And from the cook's side, making sure that everyone's dietary needs and reasonable preferences are catered for.

I'd agree with this. It took me about 3 years to get it from DSCs though! Except for my resident DSC who never thanked me ever.

Yes I'd agree there needs to be compassion and time from the SM towards the child adjusting, and DP adjusting! As long as there is some. I respectfully held back for months, years even and only introduced things gradually. But I'm not sure this worked, DP and DSCs got used to me and my DS moulding ourselves to their lives and home, and treated us as outsiders because we didn't assert ourselves.

So... tricky balance!

P.s. I thought. OP was saying why give dessert when dinner not finished, not that they always had to force it down?

OP was saying why give dessert when dinner not finished, not that they always had to force it down?

Why should you have to clear a plate to get pudding? You are insisting on children forcing down food if you say they can't have pudding till the rest is done. Why make pudding something to be coveted?

It creates a really unhealthy association with sweet foods if they are only given as "rewards" for stuffing yourself with other food first.

Of course good table manners are preferably taught, but it's about how they are taught. Again, it's about a good balancing act. Only a couple of days ago, I had a moaning session when DS didn't finish his plate and I found out he had stuffed himself an hour ago, so he heard what I thought about it BUT today, I went out of my way to pick up from a train station as his train was cancelled and he would otherwise have been waiting for an hour for the next one and he was cold and tired after a football game.

That's what it is all about. If OP is prepared to go out of her way and do positive things (not normal chores, few kids are deeply grateful for this), then they will much more open to listen to advice and accept being reprimanded. If however they are constantly criticised (and sometimes just a look is enough to feel so), then it will accumulate with the list of resentment, especially when it relates to something that their own parents have no issue with whatsoever.

In this case, what I've picked up is that OP is putting herself is a position to feel resentful. She is taking chores she should have to do, but do with an expectation of gratitude from both her partner and the kids, the latter by eating everything on their plate, and when this is not forthcoming, expects her OP to reprimand the kids on her behalf.

That's why I think that the biggest mistake a SM can make is to want to implement change, especially change that is bound to upset too quickly. It's better to do as little as possible to start with (after all, dad must have been cooking for his kids before OP moved in), and only gradually suggest some changes as the relationship with the kids progresses.

There are bound to be rules that need to be implemented immediately, but as Somerville says, these should be discussed and agreed before the move and balanced out with some positives.

When we moved with OH, the essential rules were that the kids were not to eat/drink in the living room any longer (which they used to do) and keep their things in their rooms (which they didn't do well before) and keep the noise down. OH had to accept that his monthly disposable income would take a hit as a result of moving in together, that Christmas would be spent at home, and that holidays would be during school holidays.

The problem comes when one expect everyone to adjust to their needs yet are not prepared to do much adjustment themselves.

I had a very similar situation with DSS. He had and still does have appalling table manners. He would sit on the side edge of his chair, as if he were about to leave the table. Eat with his head in his hands, with his mouth wide open. Get up when he had finished and without a word leave the room.

It really bothered me, my kids did not eat like that. We ate as a family every night and every night it was the same. DH did not really care. If the father does not care there is not much you can do about it either.

My way of coping was to decide it was not my problem. I rearranged the way we sat at the table, so I did not have to look at DSS eating, and let it go.

Since becoming a teenager, DSS has started eating his meals in his room, again not my problem and does make mealtimes a lot more pleasant. He usually brings junk food home for supper.

With regard to healthy v junk food, again not your problem. Let her father feed her what he wants, don't stress about cooking and being unappreciated.

My DSS still has what I consider a bad diet. He has a small fridge full of coke and chocolate in his room. On holiday he drank about 5 cans of coke a day and not once did I see him drink water. My kids do not eat like that. I do not comment any more, not my problem or my kid.

If you are going to continue in this relationship and be a stepmum, you do need to learn to let things go, for your peace of mind. It is amazing what you can get used to.

When I first met my DSC, I too was quite uncomfortable by their table manners (and other stuff like hand washing after loo). They were then 8 and 6.

At first I thought DP (at the time, now DH) didn't care, and I realised quite quickly this would be a problem for me as I was brought up with quite strict table rules etc. Really got under my skin.

Anyway, it didn't take long for DH to explain that it wasn't that he didn't care - it was more that he didn't quite know what to do about it. Over the previous three years they had gone through so much change. He had learned to be a single dad EOW and some of the holidays. He had created a new home where they felt safe and always wanted (while they remained in their old family home with their mum). He revised his entire working life to be able to pick them up from school on those Fridays and return them to school on Mondays. Not to speak of the logistics of clean school uniforms and sports kits and homework and new shoes and whatnot all while going back and forth between homes. He did remarkably well to make it all work, without any help nearby at all.

So I concluded that by the time I appeared on the scene he was just so relieved to have a pattern that worked for his children, a schedule that they were happy with, and made both very keen to be with their dad. He was so relived that he didn't seem to have the mental capacity or energy to instigate a bunch of new rules (although overdue, like the manners). He just wanted his home with them to be a totally safe space and I guess 'party time with daddy'. He was the soft touch.

However, when I flagged some issues that mattered to me because I don't like witnessing them AND I knew that wasn't what I was going to want our own DS to emulate - DH was delighted for me to get involved.

He asked what all the things were that I thought could be improved (manners, social politeness, diet, minor hygiene details, bedroom tidying, and small stuff like clearing the table and loading the dishwasher etc).

There was very little on my list that he didn't agree with, he just didn't couldn't face dealing with them all on his own with his much adored kids who he still didn't see as much as he would like to.

So we decided to do it together. We nicely communicated some new house rules for ALL of us to follow (adults included), not because anyone had done anything wrong - just something that we all cared about.

Obviously it was slow and painful and not nearly perfect - but the point of this long ramble was to say that I didn't have a problem with my DH here. He needed help and confidence and encouragement to take these things on without fearing it could damage the safe haven he had created for his babies.

I see quite a few single dads absolutely petrified to create any unhappiness in their homes for fear their kids won't want to visit anymore. Although I have never found that to be the case - my lovely DSC like boundaries and being competitive with each other and snitching on the other when they haven't followed the rules. Works generally fine now (so much so that I am getting quite scared that my own DS isn't going to be as well behaved and I will have a LOT of ground to make up!).

I feel for all of you. I follow Bananas around the Step- parenting board because I find I am very aligned with her in her approach which seeks to ensure the SM received and feels at least as much respect as the Ex-wife on a day to day basis. I feel so sorry for SMs who don't get that, and are put on the backseat because DHs are too worried about enraging the Ex which could then lead to access issues etc.

I see quite a few single dads absolutely petrified to create any unhappiness in their homes for fear their kids won't want to visit anymore. Although I have never found that to be the case - my lovely DSC like boundaries and being competitive with each other and snitching on the other when they haven't followed the rules.

I am genuinely pleased that this works for you and others. Unfortunately one of my DSCs has not visited us in months because I asked her to not ignore her step brother. And the other has not visited because my DP asked her to read her young half brother a story. I would not have believed that relatively 'normal' kids could hold either parent to random, but it happens!

Ransom... oops not random!!