SC Manners

[user1476993639]

Hi,

I (25f) )have been with my DP (33m) for over a year now and first met his 7 year old DD 6 months ago.

At first, everything was smooth...the child was polite and seemed happy to see me when visiting etc.

DP and I moved in together a couple of months ago now (btw, unsure of relevance but this was into the house he used to live with his ex and daughter). Obviously, we are all spending a lot more time together.

As of late, I have been avoiding this time on purpose, especially around meal times, because his DD's table manners are absolutely horrendous! She doesn't even cut her food, much preferring to chew off large parts sometimes holding it in her hands. She speaks with her mouth full, chews with her mouth open, doesn't sit still in her chair, sometimes gets up and goes for a wander around, often spilling food all over....and often she doesn't even finish the plate. Yet DP still lets her have dessert/pudding!!! The chomping and lip smacking alone has lead me to stop eating out in public with her.

Growing up, manners and table etiquette were instilled within all my siblings and I from a very early age. I can not believe she has got to the age of 7 and is able to behave in such a way.

The last thing I sometimes want to do when I get home from work is cook a dinner - compared to say a year ago when I would eat out most nights or order in. But I'm consciously wanting to ensure DP's daughter gets all the goodness from a meal that she needs and deserves. So after sometimes spending an hour in the kitchen I feel totally disrespected when she can't even sit nicely to eat it, leaving it even, with me asking the question "why do I even bother?!" Then I also don't get the support from my DP as he rewards such behaviour with a treat!

AIBU?!?!

I have raised this - tactfully - with DP already, and his response was that he wants his DD to enjoy being a child for now, and not to have such rules unnecessarily enforced on her as she can learn this as she gets older.

My concern is that when will that time come?! Surely building on skills such as cutting up food properly, using a knife and fork, using a napkin, are all behaviours which would stand her in good stead for later life if taught and reinforced now at an early age?!

I don't know what to do?! I'm in no position to offer any form of parenting or discipline - she's not my child. But I really don't know how much longer I can go keeping silent before I end up seriously blowing up in my DP's face about it.

I feel that this could begin to drive a wedge between me and my DP, to the point where I can't eat with him when we have his DD with us as well.

Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

[Somerville]

Frankly, many of these issues don't sound like they are actually caused by the DSC's manners so much as with their father's inconsistent/indulgent/lazy parenting.

Yes, being a single parent is really tough and some standards can slide - mine certainly did. But by that I mean tumble drying school uniform rather than ironing it, more convenience food, and the like. Not giving up on actually parenting my children like some of these men.

I reckon this comes back to the fact that in our society that fathers are judged on what they do do for their DC and mothers judged on what they don't do for their DC.

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

Soggy that is hard. I haven't much advice except that eventually I too just had to ride a very rocky road for a while, and just 'think' in terms of what needed to work to make a relatively harmonious household for ME and my sons. I knew I was a fairly reasonable person, that I was fair, and that I was not asking too much of either DSCs or DP.

And so for a while DSCs would sometimes have their noses out of joint because I 'dared' to ask them to turn down music or clear the table, that it was OK to initiate a pleasant conversation, even if I was rebuffed, that it was also OK to praise a DSC even if I just got a 'what?' Back.

One of the DSDs decided that I was not 'her type', DP got defensive if I made even mild suggestions, and I tolerated several weeks of silent staring resentment by one particular DSD! But in the end I am much happier and have protected my DSs much more than being quiet or held to ransom. Just don't!

[SoggyWetFlannel]

Unfortunately dsc don't have many rules at their dm's as they cause her such grief she just gives in for a quiet life - her own admission. One of her children still sleeps with her aged 13, in fact, demands that she goes to bed or won't sleep.

It was similar to op's problem, DH didn't think it was an issue that she completely ruled the house, and that as long as she was happy he was too. Didn't want to rock the boat.

I refused to take things further with their behaviour as it would have been detrimental to my dc. I have my dc always, we have dsc 3 or 4 nights a week. Joining the household together wouldn't have worked the way it was. So, we compromised and set some very basic ground rules, agreed by all. It worked for a while, then All of a sudden dsc decided it was too much for them and have thrown toys out of the pram. They are holding everyone hostage. To begin with their dm forced the issue saying that I wasn't allowed to tell them to do anything. But now she wants us to have them extra over half term so that she can go out...

[LHReturns]

swingofthings I completely understand and having re-read my post I felt it came across as quite naive and Pollyanna-like.

I didn't mean to do that. The main reason things worked out for me (so far) is that I got lucky with the stepkids, and as you say, my DH was up for me bringing some change about as he wasn't quite sure what good looked like anyway. It was not because I did anything extra clever - and I certainly did not.

And it also isn't all perfect. I have a very particularly special situation with my 9 year old DSS who seems very focused on the fact that this is 'Daddy's house' (and not also my house), and likes to ask about what I pay for with my money versus what his dad pays for (e.g. our holidays, cars and stuff). This really bugs me (as I work full time and would be totally independent if I were to be alone with my DS). DH jumps on this when DSS says such things but he continues. He seems to want to confirm that I am 'kept' by his father, and I have no clue where a 9 year old boy even gets such ideas.

The point I did want to make was that I agree with any SM who feels that she absolutely has a right to introduce home rules for where she lives. I totally understand that some may look other way for an easier life when DSC won't play ball, but I still believe that she has the right to contribute 50% to the way people live and operate in her home.

Anyway, I'm sorry if anyone read my earlier post as suggesting I know what I'm doing. I don't - and the other thing we have is two homes (one London during the week, and one in the country on weekends). We only have the DSD in our country home so I have a sanctuary in London which has been totally created by me. That also makes my life easier not though any achievement of my own. If the DSC want to stay with us in London when they are older then they can eat standing over the sink like I make DH. (That is only a semi-joke).

[swingofthings]

I see quite a few single dads absolutely petrified to create any unhappiness in their homes for fear their kids won't want to visit anymore. Although I have never found that to be the case - my lovely DSC like boundaries and being competitive with each other and snitching on the other when they haven't followed the rules. Works generally fine now (so much so that I am getting quite scared that my own DS isn't going to be as well behaved and I will have a LOT of ground to make up!).
It's great that it worked for you and indeed the fact that your DSC like boundaries probably help a lot to ease these new rules. Also, it might be that although you came with new rules, you might also have come with a lot of positive changes so it was well balanced.

The problem is that many kids don't like change and like soggywet experienced, some kids take badly to them. It's understandable. They already have to adjust to new different households, so two different sets of rules, even if quite similar, in addition to other set of rules at school and many yet elsewhere. On this basis, many dads will make the choice to try to make the rules with them as similar to what they are used to at their residence. To then have to face to yet another change of rules, the reasons for which are not clear beyond 'because SM insists on them', is often not going to be received with great pleasure.

In OP's case, it's even worse because her OP has already expressed that he doesn't agree with her. In your situation LHreturns, your OH was a bit lost as to how he wanted to bring up his kids and welcome your interventions, but many dads are perfectly happy with their ways and don't want to be dictated what they should do. In many case, I was very happy with the way I was bringing up my kids, so although I agreed on some changes because some compromises needed to be made, but I wasn't prepared for my kids to make all the compromises just to please him, especially if it was something I didn't agree with.

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

Thanks LH for those kind words. My youngest DSD was 9 and she was definitely a more "open book' as it were. She seemed to appreciate that one of her parents had some stability, as the one thing I did bring, was a strong sense of it being a 'family home'. I did make a positive impact on her life I think.

The older teenagers were more tricky!

Soggy - I totally understand. I do think teenagers are guided by their parents about what is 'reasonable' to expect - and can get whipped up by a hostile parent - to everyone's cost in the end. Your DH is now in an impossible situation.

My DSD did this to my DP too, told him it was 'impossible' with me over absolutely nothing, buoyed up by her Mum who repeatedly told her that if I so much as asked for her to say Hello I was out of line. She moved out to her Mums, ignored us, and now her Mum I think is panicking as she didn't really want her back and is now hinting heavily that it is all 'too much for her' and really she is best 'back with us'. So sad really, totally undermining of my relationship with her so no, sorry, it can never work now and do you know what, not my fault and really not my problem any more!

[SoggyWetFlannel]

It is such a minefield. Dh and I implimented some 'house rules' nothing too outrageous. Clean sheets once a week, table manners, taking your own plate out and shower / bath once a day. That's it. Turns out that dsc (tween) have complained to their dm that it's like living in a prison camp, and I've been told that if I tell dsc to do anything they won't come to us any more as it upsets them too much. Now dh is concerned about following the rules in case they decide to call their dm and leave. Sheets haven't been changed for a month, sometimes you just can't win. My dc are suffering from tiptoeing about.

[LHReturns]

That's so shxt Bananas, I'm so sorry.

I think your DSC are teenagers at least now aren't they? Were they also teenagers when you joined their lives?

I ask because I sense that older stepchildren are far harder to crack. My DSD is now 12 and the constant eye rolling, tactics, and ability to hold a grudge for months scares the life out of me. Most of this is targeted at her poor mother.

She was 8 when I appeared and was a much simpler task. I would certainly not want to be trying to integrate myself into her life and her relationship with her father today, four years on.

for you.

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

Ransom... oops not random!!

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

I see quite a few single dads absolutely petrified to create any unhappiness in their homes for fear their kids won't want to visit anymore. Although I have never found that to be the case - my lovely DSC like boundaries and being competitive with each other and snitching on the other when they haven't followed the rules.

I am genuinely pleased that this works for you and others. Unfortunately one of my DSCs has not visited us in months because I asked her to not ignore her step brother. And the other has not visited because my DP asked her to read her young half brother a story. I would not have believed that relatively 'normal' kids could hold either parent to random, but it happens!

[LHReturns]

When I first met my DSC, I too was quite uncomfortable by their table manners (and other stuff like hand washing after loo). They were then 8 and 6.

At first I thought DP (at the time, now DH) didn't care, and I realised quite quickly this would be a problem for me as I was brought up with quite strict table rules etc. Really got under my skin.

Anyway, it didn't take long for DH to explain that it wasn't that he didn't care - it was more that he didn't quite know what to do about it. Over the previous three years they had gone through so much change. He had learned to be a single dad EOW and some of the holidays. He had created a new home where they felt safe and always wanted (while they remained in their old family home with their mum). He revised his entire working life to be able to pick them up from school on those Fridays and return them to school on Mondays. Not to speak of the logistics of clean school uniforms and sports kits and homework and new shoes and whatnot all while going back and forth between homes. He did remarkably well to make it all work, without any help nearby at all.

So I concluded that by the time I appeared on the scene he was just so relieved to have a pattern that worked for his children, a schedule that they were happy with, and made both very keen to be with their dad. He was so relived that he didn't seem to have the mental capacity or energy to instigate a bunch of new rules (although overdue, like the manners). He just wanted his home with them to be a totally safe space and I guess 'party time with daddy'. He was the soft touch.

However, when I flagged some issues that mattered to me because I don't like witnessing them AND I knew that wasn't what I was going to want our own DS to emulate - DH was delighted for me to get involved.

He asked what all the things were that I thought could be improved (manners, social politeness, diet, minor hygiene details, bedroom tidying, and small stuff like clearing the table and loading the dishwasher etc).

There was very little on my list that he didn't agree with, he just didn't couldn't face dealing with them all on his own with his much adored kids who he still didn't see as much as he would like to.

So we decided to do it together. We nicely communicated some new house rules for ALL of us to follow (adults included), not because anyone had done anything wrong - just something that we all cared about.

Obviously it was slow and painful and not nearly perfect - but the point of this long ramble was to say that I didn't have a problem with my DH here. He needed help and confidence and encouragement to take these things on without fearing it could damage the safe haven he had created for his babies.

I see quite a few single dads absolutely petrified to create any unhappiness in their homes for fear their kids won't want to visit anymore. Although I have never found that to be the case - my lovely DSC like boundaries and being competitive with each other and snitching on the other when they haven't followed the rules. Works generally fine now (so much so that I am getting quite scared that my own DS isn't going to be as well behaved and I will have a LOT of ground to make up!).

I feel for all of you. I follow Bananas around the Step- parenting board because I find I am very aligned with her in her approach which seeks to ensure the SM received and feels at least as much respect as the Ex-wife on a day to day basis. I feel so sorry for SMs who don't get that, and are put on the backseat because DHs are too worried about enraging the Ex which could then lead to access issues etc.

[BlueberrySky]

I had a very similar situation with DSS. He had and still does have appalling table manners. He would sit on the side edge of his chair, as if he were about to leave the table. Eat with his head in his hands, with his mouth wide open. Get up when he had finished and without a word leave the room.

It really bothered me, my kids did not eat like that. We ate as a family every night and every night it was the same. DH did not really care. If the father does not care there is not much you can do about it either.

My way of coping was to decide it was not my problem. I rearranged the way we sat at the table, so I did not have to look at DSS eating, and let it go.

Since becoming a teenager, DSS has started eating his meals in his room, again not my problem and does make mealtimes a lot more pleasant. He usually brings junk food home for supper.

With regard to healthy v junk food, again not your problem. Let her father feed her what he wants, don't stress about cooking and being unappreciated.

My DSS still has what I consider a bad diet. He has a small fridge full of coke and chocolate in his room. On holiday he drank about 5 cans of coke a day and not once did I see him drink water. My kids do not eat like that. I do not comment any more, not my problem or my kid.

If you are going to continue in this relationship and be a stepmum, you do need to learn to let things go, for your peace of mind. It is amazing what you can get used to.

[swingofthings]

Of course good table manners are preferably taught, but it's about how they are taught. Again, it's about a good balancing act. Only a couple of days ago, I had a moaning session when DS didn't finish his plate and I found out he had stuffed himself an hour ago, so he heard what I thought about it BUT today, I went out of my way to pick up from a train station as his train was cancelled and he would otherwise have been waiting for an hour for the next one and he was cold and tired after a football game.

That's what it is all about. If OP is prepared to go out of her way and do positive things (not normal chores, few kids are deeply grateful for this), then they will much more open to listen to advice and accept being reprimanded. If however they are constantly criticised (and sometimes just a look is enough to feel so), then it will accumulate with the list of resentment, especially when it relates to something that their own parents have no issue with whatsoever.

In this case, what I've picked up is that OP is putting herself is a position to feel resentful. She is taking chores she should have to do, but do with an expectation of gratitude from both her partner and the kids, the latter by eating everything on their plate, and when this is not forthcoming, expects her OP to reprimand the kids on her behalf.

That's why I think that the biggest mistake a SM can make is to want to implement change, especially change that is bound to upset too quickly. It's better to do as little as possible to start with (after all, dad must have been cooking for his kids before OP moved in), and only gradually suggest some changes as the relationship with the kids progresses.

There are bound to be rules that need to be implemented immediately, but as Somerville says, these should be discussed and agreed before the move and balanced out with some positives.

When we moved with OH, the essential rules were that the kids were not to eat/drink in the living room any longer (which they used to do) and keep their things in their rooms (which they didn't do well before) and keep the noise down. OH had to accept that his monthly disposable income would take a hit as a result of moving in together, that Christmas would be spent at home, and that holidays would be during school holidays.

The problem comes when one expect everyone to adjust to their needs yet are not prepared to do much adjustment themselves.

[JenLindleyShitMom]

It creates a really unhealthy association with sweet foods if they are only given as "rewards" for stuffing yourself with other food first.

[needsahalo]

OP was saying why give dessert when dinner not finished, not that they always had to force it down?

Why should you have to clear a plate to get pudding? You are insisting on children forcing down food if you say they can't have pudding till the rest is done. Why make pudding something to be coveted?

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

P.s. I thought. OP was saying why give dessert when dinner not finished, not that they always had to force it down?

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

A foundation of kindness and respect is important, and this manifests at mealtimes. So, for example, coming to the table when called without a phone in hand, thanking whoever cooked for the meal and helping lay or clear the table. And from the cook's side, making sure that everyone's dietary needs and reasonable preferences are catered for.

I'd agree with this. It took me about 3 years to get it from DSCs though! Except for my resident DSC who never thanked me ever.

Yes I'd agree there needs to be compassion and time from the SM towards the child adjusting, and DP adjusting! As long as there is some. I respectfully held back for months, years even and only introduced things gradually. But I'm not sure this worked, DP and DSCs got used to me and my DS moulding ourselves to their lives and home, and treated us as outsiders because we didn't assert ourselves.

So... tricky balance!

[Lala1980]

My dad's table manners are far worse than DSCs'... My DP hates sitting opposite Dad at family meals :-)

[JenLindleyShitMom]

Not clearing your plate is perceived as being ungrateful to the cook. It's as simple as "i slaved over that stove and you can't even eat the whole meal!" The answer to that is to make smaller portions for children.

[MyWineTime]

I agree that table manners are probably the most useful things you can teach your child.
It wouldn't even make the shortlist of the most useful things you can teach your child!

And the range of acceptable table manners is very broad. The OP imposing her own exceptionally rigid standards is not helping the situation, it's making it worse. Rigid standards are not better. I have had dinner with a friend who constantly reminded her children throughout the meal to keep their elbows off the table - why? Who actually cares about such thing? Why does that even matter? All it does is create conflict where none needs to be.

Clearing your plate is an out-dated and unhealthy message - nothing to do with manners. And why would you reward children who eat more with more food? That isn't manners, it's controlling behaviour!

If you don't want the child around, everything they do will become irritating.

[Somerville]

The issue is actually what each of us mean by 'table manners'.

A foundation of kindness and respect is important, and this manifests at mealtimes. So, for example, coming to the table when called without a phone in hand, thanking whoever cooked for the meal and helping lay or clear the table. And from the cook's side, making sure that everyone's dietary needs and reasonable preferences are catered for.

However 'table manners' can become more of an etiquette thing (as OP stated) and used to subtly 'other' people who don't know the rules or don't have the physical or cognitive ability to follow them. So there I disagree with them being important to teach young children. Which fork to use - children don't attend formal dinners so they don't need to learn that until just before leaving home. Finishing everything on the plate - actually, stop eating when you're full is a much healthier message. Eating food with fingers - the majority of the world do, actually! And most families in the UK eat pizza, chicken drumsticks and the like with fingers. As long as hands are washed before and after, that's fine in my home.

Mouth open while chewing is a tricky one. The truth is that many children do it, but not out of lack of consideration - it is involuntary. The problem if you keep reminding them is they concentrate so much on keeping their mouths closed that they then don't talk. I would rather have a lively conversation with a bit of accidental open mouthed chewing over a family meal than sit in silence with everyone being very careful not to expose what they chew.

[JenLindleyShitMom]

Oh I have done. It's their business. I've yet to see anyone'a food fall out of their mouth while doing it.

[user1476656305]

" In fact table manners serve no practical purpose at all."

sit opposite someone who eats with their mouth open and then tell me that Jen...:)

[JenLindleyShitMom]

In fact table manners serve no practical purpose at all.

[JenLindleyShitMom]

I agree that table manners are probably the most useful things you can teach your child.



Nah there's loads of shit way more useful than sodding table manners.