Christmas arguments again

[wheresthel1ght]

It is getting to that time of year again when the inevitable row over Christmas occurs. I don't think we are being unreasonable in asking that we alternate years so that my dscs get to see their dad on Christmas morning and share it with their sister. Their mum on the other hand seems to think that we are being utterly unreasonable and insists that they always spend the whole of Christmas with her or at best will compromise on them coming after lunch.

None of my family live near us - I would like for us to have a proper big family Christmas that for once includes my dsc. Does this make me a bitch?! Dp agrees, he is sick of being held to ransom by her but also doesn't want a row with her.

Christmas falls on their weekend with us. She normally refuses to be flexible if we need to amend contact for any reason spouting off about the importance of routine but then expects us to rearrange our whole lives when she doesn't want the kids around.

I normally stay out of it unless it is me expected to be available - like last year when I was away and I got told that I had to cancel my plans because she hadn't arranged child care for her time during the school holidays and as I was off work they were my problem.

Before anyone flames me - I have spent years trying to keep the peace and over the last 2 years have given up. She has lied to us and about us, she has lied to the children about where she is, disappeared for hours on end after dropping them with me for a "personal" doctor's appointment, called dp all names under the sun when he has refused to alter contact because we were away at a wedding (no kids not on our weekend etc) because her dp other man was tires and wanted a weekend without the kids there.

But I am sick of seeing the kids so hurt by this same bloody row over Christmas. She promised them last year they could have Christmas Eve with us and go home for lunch and then at the very last moment she pulled the plug. Everything is about her and not the kids and I am at the end of tether for ideas on how to manage the kids expectations but also support dp on fighting for what is fair.

Any ideas? Thoughts? How do other people handle it?

it just makes me so angry for them all that her demands are supposed to be the only ones anyone pays heed to when actually it should be about what the kids want.

This is futile and unhealthy. Anger is such a negative emotion, it will impact on you in the long term, in ways you don't immediately recognise.

She's not going to change. You're right, she probably won't pay heed to a court order. So rather than expending energy wishing things were different, for you, your DP, or your DSC, make the best of what you have, within the restrictions she places on you.

When my DHs contact with his DS deteriorated, he initially felt as if it were worthless, and that his ex was robbing their DS of something. It took a very astute counsellor to help him see that it was only robbing his DS if DH allowed it to. DH has developed a very close, positive relationship with his DS despite minimal time together (none of which is in our home). He is effectively parenting within the restrictions his exW places on him. And his DS has two parents who are both willing to accept the situation, rather than constantly fighting and being hostile towards each other.
Of course it's not ideal - but it's the least worse scenario - and its your DPs responsibility to create that if his exW is oblivious to the DCs wellbeing.

NN you make a valid point and I will contemplate it. I suspect however that dp is not ready to accept the situation is futile yet. In part because he doesn't ever want the kids to turn round in years to come and ask why he didn't fight harder for them. Even though they don't see/hear the fight - email mostly so he has evidence of her behaviour after advice on here - he wants to be able to prove he fought hard for them and for what they wanted/was fair to them all.

Sorry I didn't realise your DP had regular contact. Has his ex-wife got any children with her new partner or you with yours?

Me and DD1's dad are on good terms he sees her every weekend. I still have her Christmas Day so she's with her sibling my DD2. He has his own Christmas with her Boxing Day. Is that something you could do instead?

We alternate birthdays.

It's ok Pug! She doesn't but we do and they adore each other inspite of. 10 & 8 year age gap!

We have done Boxing Day previously when she has deemed it acceptable to allow him to see them. At the moment she has vito'd any of the holiday and only permitting an hour on Xmas day inspite of it being their weekend with their dad. But it just isn't the same for the kids.

NN you make a good point, I will suggest it to dp but honestly I don't think he is ready to give up the fight just yet. He is fearful that they will question why he didn't fight harder/longer for them when they are older. Most communication is done via email both for court evidence of her attitude but also on part so he can show them the amount of paper created by his fight for them although obviously never the contents.

Rightly or wrongly - and I fully support him - he wants his share of the "proper" events with his kids. I have dd with him so I know how much it would hurt me to not get those moments with her every year should we ever split. BUT it is about her and what is best for her. Those amazing kids deserve to have those memories on the day they are meant to be made with both parents alike. Not forced to create some false wonderland because their mum is still trying to punish their dad for some imagined slight. Dsd although nearly 11 still wants to believe in Santa and they both want the Santa magic for dd. They don't see themselves as half siblings to her. They are her fully fledged, full on big brother and big sister. They want to help create the magic on Christmas Eve and whoop and Awww at Santa's snowy footprints on the carpet. And they shouldn't have to fight and argue with their mum to get that. She is the adult and she should be able to suck up her feelings especially as she caused the situation in the first place and she should allow them to have that magic with their dad.

The ex sounds awful and sorry your DP and SC have to deal with this. It must be hard for you and DD too. The best I can suggest is whatever time your DP and his ex agree on make as special as possible. They will be grown up soon enough and able to choose themselves what they want to do for Christmas. Making it a battleground will only put the SC in the middle and no one wins.

Justcallmekate your posts are !!!!!. What purpose do they serve?

Dd was rushed into hospital when they were here a few weeks ago, dp stayed with Dss and dsd. Dss spent all night texting me to find out if his baby sister was ok. When she was readmitted less than 24 hours after release he had been texting his dad about Pokemon and dp told him he might not be able to answer much as we were at the hospital so Dss text/rang every hour to make sure dd was ok and made us promise that we would tell him when she was home or if she got worse.

She thinks she is punishing/winking over dp but all she is doing is breaking her kids hearts and I hate having to watch and knowing that other than venting my anger and frustration on here there is nothing I can do.

Seems a bit spiteful.

If DD had siblings at her dads and I didn't I would let him have the Christmas Day.

Also it wouldn't be fair on your own children celebrating Christmas late.

It's shit but all you can do is rise above it. Your stepchildren will realise as they grow up who has their best interests at heart.

Thanks Cornish - we do and will. I am longing for the day when they are old enough to tell her to do one and make their own choice. Dss doesn't like confrontation though so I suspect he would always choose to placate their mum. Dsd however is a feisty soul and would move in here tomorrow given a chance! Apparently the food here is fab and she hates her mum's cooking - I do try to sound genuine when I mutter ohh that's mean dsd, it can't be that bad.

She is completely spiteful pugs and I have no idea why. Maybe she has decided she has made a mistake choosing her affair over Dp and is jealous and is trying to take her anger out. I have no idea. I don't overly care what her motivations are because they are purely about her. If she even once had it that it was what the kids wanted I think he/we would be less angry about it.

We aren't asking for every year - just every other, even every third if it made it more palatable. It's the staunch refusal of anything other than what she deems as acceptable that grates.

I know I am biased but he is a bloody amazing dad - he knows ALL the ponies in my little pony, watches hours of it with dsd, he researched the plot lines, watches YouTube things of it so he can talk confidently with her about it. He spends hours playing bloody Pokemon or Sim City with Dss and holed up on the garage building bikes/pc's/playing with boy crap. He plays trains with dd, spends the evenings building elaborate track layouts across my living room floor just so she is wowed by it when she gets up complete geek His whole world is about them. He just wants one wake up with them every other year where it is more magical than normal. I know I have made him sound Disney and he used to be but is much better at balancing it now. But he doesn't deserve this from her

He is fearful that they will question why he didn't fight harder/longer for them when they are older.

My DH and I used to fear the same. The last time ex withheld contact, DH decided not to go to court. He continued to turn up for contact, only to be rejected. (His ex then applied to remove his PR, but that's another issue).

However, even though my DHs now-adult DD has no contact with either of us, and his Now-teen DS has had his contact with DH reduced gradually from 1-week-in-3 down to 4-hours-EOW, both of them are very aware of where the responsibility lies.

DH hasn't had to show them paperwork, or tell them what happened - as they've grown up, they've drawn their own conclusions from the things their mum has said and done. She's always been very open about her hostility. They've recalled situations in which they were manipulated and bullied by her. They've remembered times they could have been having fun with their dad, if it want for the sound of her voice ringing in their ears.

Both know that they cannot have a relationship with DH and their mum. She won't allow that. And they don't want to lose their mum. They both know that DH will always be there, if and when they are ready to break free from their mums emotional abuse.

Ultimately, continuing the fight only makes things worse for the DCs. And, in our experience, if the ex is blatantly hostile, the court only has two choices. Change residency, or limit contact to a level that the hostile parent will accept.

50:50 will not work when one parent is implacably hostile. The DCs will be caught up in the middle of a constant battle. The courts will avoid that - we were told that their training discourages such a solution.

Changing residency will only be possible with the support of CAFCASS who will have to consider the long term consequences. Sadly, there are some women who would rather lose their DCs than allow them to have a relationship with their father. Some Mothers lose residency due to hostility, but then refuse to see their DCs as set out in a contact order.

So even if you do go to court, the contact your DH secures may be no more than what his ex is willing to agree to.

I biebe his solicitor has recommended the same outcome is possible but did wonder if the threat of court might be enough to make her at least try and be reasonable.

I am sorry your dh has endured it and that his kids have ultimately had to choose. I wouldn't want it to get to that point for my dsc. They are typical kids and I could wring their necks for the back chat and crap bahavior just as I could with Did. But they mean the world to us. I may not love them in the same way as did - they were older, we have a very different bond, but I love the absolute bones of them.

Did = ds

Dd bloody autocorrect is on one tonight

What I find difficult reading is that I get the feeling that the reason why it means so much to you to hedge then the whole weekend is because YOU want to be able to travel to be with YOUR family.

You accuse the ex of being selfish and manipulating the kids when it seems that you are behaving just like her.

In between young kids being able to spend Christmas day seeing both their parents and one adult insisting that the children should spend the day with SM's family it seems obvious which one is the most selfish decision.

Should the op, her dh and their dd go and spend time as a family with the op's family without the dscs then swing? The op is only trying to include them in her side of the family. If she didn't bother then people would probably have something to say about that as well.

Fwiw at 11 and 12 I would say you've got 2-3 years max before the children make their.own decisions. Certainly for me at 13/14 I was pretty strong willed and would have been splitting my time how I chose.

I get that he wants to see them. I get that she wants to keep them. However, I actually don't think there is anything that you can do until they are old enough to make their own choices. I think going through a court to "set it in stone" would be a waste of time and money as she may well just keep the kids with her and there wouldn't really be an awful lot you could do about it.

I do think that going forward you may get better responses if you left out the personal insults. Regardless of what happens I hope you have a lovely Christmas.

I think Christmas is very emotive for lots of family's and when you are trying to work around step families it becomes a real bone of contention. I agree that in most cases moms believe that they deserve Christmas because they do the lions share of care and therefore why should they hand over kids as what is perceived of of the biggest holidays of the year? Dads are seemingly to assume the Christmas leftovers which often causes resentment and bad feelings.

I do always have my DS on Christmas up until about 5 when he goes to his dads, his dad has never asked for anything else and I have never offered it. He is useless and has never really paid maintenance as he should and has no involvement in DS life other than when DS is with him (DS is not even allowed to discuss what happens at home when at his dads). I actually think that because I have a large family and we have always done Chrsitmas lunch with them maybe his dad has not wanted to take DS away from that as he has never really got with anyone else?

DH on the other hand has always been very involved with his DC's, has them EW, goes to medical school apps etc. We have had years when his DC's have been upset because they want to come to grannies for lunch, want to see DSB on Christmas day etc. They usually come on Boxing day and stay until new years day.

Whilst not ideal we have accepted it is the way it is and tried to just make most of it over year, we usually go out on Boxing day with DH's family and treat it as a Christmas day take 2. DS then comes back from his dads day after boxing day and they are altogether then for the rest of the week.

Thing is though a time comes when things just change as the DC's become older. This year DS was away with his dads family for his bday (I was not told until after it was booked and paid for and whilst I was not happy that it meant he was away for his bday, there was no way I was going to be a diva about it and ruin it for DS (it was his first ever holiday with dads family). DS is looking for Christmas job and knows he may have to work Boxing day and therefore is not likely to go to dads. DSD has new boyfriend and is already wanting to spend time round his more. We are looking at ways to start new more age appropriate traditions that we can share at Christmas so we still get quality family time but know that all our DC's in different ways are growing up and finding there own way and doing there own things - we want to be the home that they feel relaxed and happy in when they want to chill over the season of supposedly good will and accept that eventually it could just end up being me and DP some of the holidays and we will then have to find our own way of celebrating.

Don't let the anger over ride your time with your DD, it is a special time of year for you obviously and your DD. Your DH whilst may never get to have DC's on the day until they are old enough to just decide what they want to go and go for it. Try and relax how you feel about it and make the time you have memorable in different ways on the different days for you all, that effort will be far more appreciated as ALL your DC's get older than arguments and bad feeling on one particular date.

Cozy my family live abroad somewhere nice and hot. Me and my OH would love to go there for Christmas especially OH who is very close to them but this hasn't happened yet because of the issue of the kids spending part of the day with both of us. It's part of the many compromises my OH has agreed to by marrying me and therefore taking on my kids too.

If OP's SC truly would rather spend the whole weekend with OP's family and not see their mum then that would be different but I know from experience how kids get emotionally manipulated to tell you what yoy want to hear that I'm not convinced it is the case. I went through it myself as a kid.

I've asked mine to be totally honest and that whatever they wanted was what I wod go with and they said that they wanted to spend the day with both so that's what has been happening.

Swing - they are the ones asking what is happening. They are the ones saying they are fed up of being pulled from pillar to post and. It able to enjoy the day.

But equally why should my dd not be allowed to spend time with her family because his ex's refuses to play fair?

I get it op. It's frustrating. Especially when you have dc with your do too, I think some people forget that the children are siblings.

For us we have ss about 1pm ish Christmas Day and then Boxing Day, every single year. It's not ideal. Ex does what she likes with contact, usual arrangement is every Sunday crack of dawn till 9:30pm and a night in the week. However she swaps and changes this as she likes to suit her social life, however if we as, to change a date (rarely!) we get told no you have to find someone else to look after your child I won't do it. One rule for one etc.

To be honest if she is owt like dps ex you'll never be able to convince her and you'll probably waste a lot of energy trying. I can't be arsed any more and just keep out of it, however we've had so many occasions ruined because of the ex it's hard to just ignore it completely.

I don't really know what to say! I suppose a court order is one thing but like you say she won't stick to it anyway!

We got told that when ss was 12 he could choose what he wanted to do re contact, guess what he's 12 and he's still being dictated to, as are we!

Christmas is when you do see how much one parent 'gets more' as it were than the other. There may be reasons, legitimate ones, for this, but it doesn't sound like there is any reason not to alternate Christmas for your DSCs OP. Their mother is just not playing fair by the sounds of it.

I do all the childcare and have bought up my son from a baby by myself, my Ex is a pain! And yet for many years I let him have the Christmas with our son. Basically out of kindness. I realized later what a fool I was to miss out on Christmas myself, and we now do alternate years.

My DPs Ex used to the have her children every single Christmas - it was the one night of the year that I knew that all the step children would be at hers. It also used to rile me as it was like she could show all her family that she was still the main parent, and the mother. Believe me she holds on to that. And yet with one of my DSDs she didn't have her overnight for ANY other night of the year!! I used to have three step children every weekend except for Christmas. And then last year suddenly she 'let' DP have them, which was nice but because we'd never had them as younger kids, it was actually quite hard to set it well. They were all around 18 years old, we had no traditions with them on the day.

However, with both my son and my DSCs, as I often didn't have them for the actual day, I always did a celebration before Christmas. It would be Christmas like, with a meal, but not exactly like the main day. I really wanted to create my own with them, which included certain games, the putting up of the tree etc. We also always got each other presents, by putting names in a hat and each buying one present.

One of the nicest moments for me as a SM was when the youngest DSD piped up that she really looked forward to the present getting and the quiz for names, and said that 'we always did this didn't we'. One time where I did feel that my DSD felt part of 'our other' family unit!

But equally why should my dd not be allowed to spend time with her family because his ex's refuses to play fair?

I don't think your dd should miss out on seeing her family, so I do think you should go ahead with your plans over Christmas. Your dsc being there as well is unfortunately not a given but a bonus. You can still make extra plans for when they are with you.

Don't let this woman determine your dd's Christmas. She will get the satisfaction knowing that her decisions rule your plans. Don't give it to her.

Swing - they are the ones asking what is happening. They are the ones saying they are fed up of being pulled from pillar to post and. It able to enjoy the day

But maybe that means not wanting to travel for miles to spend time with your family either.

The reality is that we posters don't know what your SCs really want. Maybe they don't care where they are, all they want is for their respective families to stop fighting. Maybe they tell their dad and you one thing and their mum and partner something else and both sides are persuaded that the kids want to do what they want to do and therefore the other party is selfish and unreasonable. Maybe you're right and would love to spend the day with you and your family and wouldn't be bothered if they didn't see their mum on the day. Or maybe their mum is right and you are misinterpreting what they are telling you and actually would prefer to spend half the day with you and half the day with her. The one blessing is that it won't be that long until they are old enough to make the decision on their own.

I agree with Cozy, if you want to spend the day with your family, then go ahead and do so and celebrate with them when you are back.

The one blessing is that it won't be that long until they are old enough to make the decision on their own.

I do think that this oft-quoted perception is far from reality in most cases, tbh.

How many posts on MN are from fully functioning, NT adults, who feel obligated and pressured by dominant, abusive, or just plain insensitive parents?
Being an adult doesn't mean automatically develop the skills to put your own needs ahead of your parents desires, or even the things that you think your parents want. That is a skill that has to be taught, and practiced.

As a child, and even an adult, knowing that your parent is manipulating you in order putting their own feelings ahead of your own is one thing, but defying that parent to ensure your own needs are met is something very different.

Think I'm with swing on this. If the mother is this u, then i would go the other way and suggest to dsc that you pick them up on Boxing Day or the day after. And I would turn NY or NYD into a special celebration. Anything is better than a fight.

We tried picking up dsc one Xmas Day (or maybe two) and it was awful - so disruptive for everyone. We switched to alternate which suited all of us more - though it wasn't easy to get to that point. I know that's what you want but you obviously aren't going to win. Better to find a different approach, even if it's unfair.

My dsc are grown-up now and choose to spend every Christmas with us now. It's great to be out the other side and you will get there too!