Worried about DSD - how to help without causing further conflict?

[pinkprimroses]

My DSD is 15, just started Y11. She - and her two brothers - live with us every weekend, and stay with their mum in the week. She's been noticeably unhappy the last few weeks but I'm unsure how best we can help.

A key issue seems to be that she finds the bus ride (1 hour each way) to school from her mum's hard going. We live a short walk from her school so she'd rather stay here more in the week. I suspect from things she's said she'd rather just live her full time, but she's not one to want to cause conflict, and aware that her DM wouldn't want this. DH has tried to compromise by saying she can stay her more in the week if she wants, and she's been doing this quite a bit. She asked if she could make it a regular thing on a Thursday - ie just extend the weekend really, and DH said no problem and he thought her DM would be find about it, but turns out she isn't fine, and has accused him of trying to "poach" her children night by night..... and reminded him that the court order (in place since they divorced about 7 years back) is for the DC to reside with her in the week. We're a bit surprised by this reaction as she has generally been quite flexible about them stopping over here the odd night in the week, and DSD did do it regularly last summer term as she had a drama rehearsal. I suspect that it's because I'm correct that DSD is working up to saying she'd rather just live here, and her DM is aware of this. I'm fairly sure that if DH pushed it via court, they would listen to DSD's wishes and she could live here if she wanted, but would it be worth the conflict that would entail?

It's complicated by the fact that she's generally struggling with life at the moment. She's finding her workload hard at school, and has been procrastinating rather than getting on with it every way possible - watching youtube, sleeping, tidying her room, watching movies.... But her form teacher's just rung to say he's concerned about her wellbeing - that she's been crying a lot at school, complained about sibling bullying (which we think was a bit of a one-off and now resolved) and has been referred to the school counsellor. She's told them things that have made them concerned about her mental health which are worrying.

What to do to help? Is pushing the issue of where she lives likely to help resolve things, or just add to her stress? She's said things a few times indicating that she's not happy at her mum's - feels that her mum doesn't have any time for her, favours younger brother, never sees her - I think by the time she's got home on the bus, done homework and eaten there's probably not much time for positive interaction - all the DSC tell us they never sit downstairs in an evening - always up in their rooms whilst their DM and her DP watch TV together. It doesn't sound very happy, but we've tended to dismiss/brush over her concerns so far - though I'm wondering whether there's more to it? She's not one to open up easily.

Fifteen years old can be a tricky age for the teenager concerned and for the mother and daughter relationship, there's so much going on so I don't think the veiled criticism of her mother in your OP is particularly helpful. Most children feel as though their siblings are favoured and that parents don't have enough time for them. I think it would be a mistake for her mother and her to stop living together rather than weather those difficult years together and come out the other side.

That said her unhappiness needs to be addressed and ultimately her wishes must be taken into account. I think a 50/50 arrangement where everyone knows where they are might work better. Also if I were the mother here I might well react sharply to my ex telling me what's what (we are not on great terms) but I know I would take it under consideration and be devastated to think I might be getting it wrong and would take all steps to remedy that.

I would be wary of 'solving' her problem by moving to yours just yet. Not to rule this out. But I have also had DSCs who have moved out of their mums to ours, and also moved back, when they were having difficulties but they jumped ship to the 'easiest' parenting and in the long term, their problems became worse.

I would be very wary of that very tempting trap of feeling like the 'favoured' parent in this circumstance and undermining the other parent. This happened in my 'step family' - both 'for' us and 'against' us. It might be easier walking to school from yours, but I do think, unless there is an irrecoverable and serious problem with the mum, that what you and DP should be doing is working WITH their mum as closely as you can. If the girl is starting to have trouble at school and struggling, then her overriding want will be to avoid and escape this rather than facing her problems. By staying at yours more without you talking to her mum, you are seriously undermining her mum and encouraging your daughter to be acting out as a way of punishing her mum. If the daughter does feel neglected by her mum, then encourage her and her mum to boost their relationship, instead of allowing yourselves to be used to play off each other.

If I were you I'd get DP to talk with her mum, and get him to say to his daughter that they are both there to help her with any problems.

Absolutely agree with pyjamas.

Help her deal with her problems not run from them. I doubt this is very much about an hours commute but she's saying that to try and get the reaction she wants from you

Nobody likes to see their kids upset, but the best thing you can do with a young person is give them the skills to deal with things they find difficult. She wants you to talk to her mum for her and for you to be the "baddy" in her mums eyes. If mum and dad were still together, she would have to deal with it somehow.

Niki - I'm not posting "veiled criticism of her mother" - I'm repeating what she's said and trying to figure out how much weight to give it. I've always defended her DM when DSD has raised these concerns - told her it's hard being a mum, and I'm sure she loves her just as much as DSS, etc. I have no grudge against her DM, and would really love DSD to have a happier relationship with her. You're right of course that all teenagers have conflict with their parents at times, and none of the moans she says are in themselves reason to feel it's anything out of the ordinary. But she does seem to be quite consistently unhappy.

Yes I think ideally they would work together to support their DD. I'm sure they do both very much want her to be happier. But they're not great at working together on things. DH's ex tends just to send emails to DH blaming him for whatever problem any of them have, and demanding he sorts it out - even problems like late night texting at her house which DH can't really do a lot about. And I'm struggling to see how they can deal with this one without facing the issue of which nights she spends here, which it looks like they don't agree on.

You're right bananas that we don't want her (or the others) jumping ship whenever they have a fall out. I'm not sure she's just opting for the easier parenting though - she doesn't really get a lot of parenting at either house in my view. The every weekend with us routine means that neither parent (nor me) really has a handle on what school work she has to do, etc. She's left to her own devices, and is foundering. An she doesn't have much of a social life so there's no issues with curfews, etc between the two homes. She's just a rather unhappy lonely girl :( Any change of routine would be much better if everyone supported it. But what if they don't? Do we just tell DSD that she's too young to have a say for now, and needs to work on her relationship with her DM? I'm concerned that'll just feel like more rejection to her - that she's not welcome here.

greenhen - I guess the commute probably isn't the only problem but I do think it's significant one. She's leaving the house at 7am, and not back til 5.30pm, as there's often a wait for the bus home. She's then got 2 hours or so of homework, eats, and goes to bed. She's always tired, and the combination of the commute and being with us at weekends also means she doesn't get much quality time with her mum - none really, except in the holidays.

pink... I understand it just sounds so much like my older DSCs - we had them every weekend or full-time - and not much 'structured parenting' so neither parent had a handle on stuff and the older ones have ended up with very similar 'grumbles'. I found that when they were here full-time they rejected totally me taking an interest in their lives - I know it is hard - but that meant that again no-one was around to really be on top of stuff.

My older DSC was very like yours, not very sociable, would often just refuse to do school work and retreat into her own world, and then complain that either her Dad was 'interfering' too much by getting her to do homework, and I was 'trying to be like her mum' but totally relied on me to cook/wash her clothes etc. She's ended up being able to use the 'I don't want to live with you' on both parents and they both just give her what she wants now, which means she's quite a needy dependent person of 19.

So yes, if I were you I would stand firm, this isn't really to do with living arrangements - her relationship with her mum, her getting on with school, her getting out of a rut is the bigger problem surely? If she moved in with you - how is anything with her school or her relationship with her mum going to improve?

Can you change the arrangements so that she has a full week in one place, and then a week in the other? At least that way you could be more on top of (as could her Mum) what she is doing. I also think that her Mum is actually going to be getting the worst of her daughter (knackered, no real time left for interaction) so it is likely to do more harm to the relationship.

Yes, that's it exactly bananas - neither parent really has a handle on stuff. My own DC go to their dad's just alternate weekends which I feel works much better as I have time to be on top of their lives. But otherwise I think my DSD is quite different in temperment to yours. I don't think she'd resent me, or any parent, being involved in her life - she never has so far. She's not a rebellious type. It's just that I don't do it as I'm not sure it's my role, DH doesn't do it as he never has (and probably thinks it's his ex's role), and his ex doesn't do it - possibly because she doesn't get enough time with DSD, or DSD tells her she'll do everything at the weekend.... DH and his ex don't communicate over details like what homework needs doing.

The way I think her relationship with her DM would improve would be some quality one to one time, which she doesn't get at the moment. You're right reform that her DM gets the worst side of parenting in my view - knackered and under pressure all the time. But it's always been like that for the past 6/7 years. Her DM regards the DC as her job, I think, and the weekends as her leisure time. We've always been happy for her to take them out at the weekends, but this has only happened maybe once a year per child. Mostly I think she enjoys some child-free time with her DP.

A full week in one place and then in the other would probably suite DSD much better, and would suit us fine, but I can't see her DM going for that - she'd lose her child-free leisure time but also lose her "status" as the primary carer - in her own eyes at least.

Anyway, DH has now emailed asking if they can have a chat about DSD. He's also reassured her that he doesn't intend to reduce the child maintenance regardless of whether she flexes the term-time living arrangements or not, and reassured her that he'd continue to see her as the primary carer, even if DSD were here more in the week. Will have to see how this goes.

Presumably, your DSD form tutor has also spoken to her mum about the schools concerns? (And if not, why not?)

This information should be the starting point for discussion between your DSD and her parents; rather than what your DSD has said to each of them individually. When parents are unable to cooperate, DCs find different ways of coping; some say what they think each parent wants to hear, others rebel, and others withdraw.

By focusing on what the school has said, it removes the potential for conflict between parents and avoids placing your DSD in the middle.

Yes the form tutor did speak to DSD's mum too.

DH called his ex this evening They've had a long chat - longer than I've ever known them talk before, which is really good. They've not resolved all that much on a practical level, but DSD's mum has said she'll talk to DSD about her wanting to stay here more. But it's really good that she rang and that they spoke so long without her just blaming DH for everything.

I'm not quite sure if she'll be here tomorrow - will just have to see I guess.

DSD is definitely one who just withdraws of she senses conflict at all. I don't think she'll play parents off against each other - she just goes quiet and avoids confrontation.

If she spent more nights with you in the week, she could have weekends with her mum, which would give them the opportunity to have some more relaxed time together.

Only if her Mum wanted to spend more time with her at weekends, Morgan. DH has been encouraging that but his ex was negative about it, said DSD was unappreciative of things.

To be honest, I think she's got very used to child free weekends and I don't think would want a regular change to that, which means she needs to hold on to the weekday nights all the more.

Pink - this is an excellent useful thread and I agree with most of the posts re teenagers etc

But PLEASE stop the veiled criticism of the mother. I have to agree with Niki now. I was on the fence initially but not now.
Your last few posts have been full of little digs - Always blames DH, likes her child free weekends etc etc.
From all accounts you do not have a conversation with her to know what she thinks.

Bigfoot - How can I respond to suggestions that DSD spends more time with her Mum at weekends without explaining that her DM doesn't appear to want her to do that?

If you do not know for sure , then do not make an assumption?

Believe me looking after 3 kids during the week, is quite soul destroying and not relationship building. Routines become entrenched for ease of life and it may take some persuasion to change them. Suggesting court in your first thread is such an antagonistic approach to take.

Something is up and both her parents need to sit down with her and work out what is going on and how to help. The child is unhappy about something - not criticisng you - but your DP and her mother need to sort it out, without letting her manipulate the situation.

She might be pregnant!

In my experience, my DSCs also never had weekends with their mother and this one, in my opinion, one of the sources of some of their problems. They had such a distant connection with their mum that their relationship is one of 'friends' and any parenting comes our way. Their mum, like in your case, got used to these as her time with her boyfriend and was loathe to give this up. That must feel quite rejecting as a child.

It sounds as if this girl is kind of crying out for a little more attention from her mum but doesn't know what to do.

DH has not suggested court, and nor have I to his ex. It would cause conflict, which is why we'd prefer to avoid it. But this forum is useful for talking to people who have experience of when it can help, and when it doesn't so I find it useful to talk to other step mums about their experiences. I do very much know that his ex doesn't want to have the DC at the weekend - because she can take them any time she wants, and she very rarely does. She has hobbies that she does, and seems to make the most of the time doing fun things with her DP, that the DSC wouldn't enjoy. Nothing wrong with making the most of your life, but describing it as enjoying her child-free time hardly seems unfair to me. I think she has got very used to the weekends being her time with her DP that to change that would be hard.

DSD is not used to speaking to both her parents together and would absolutely clam up if they sat her down together and demanded to know what's up. She'd initially asked the school not to let them know she'd been for counselling, but has since said her tutor could phone them (hence the calls) She opens up best with a much gentler approach. It could be some big "thing" that is wrong - though I think pregnancy's unlikely - but quite possibly she may not even know what's really wrong, just that she's finding life tough at the moment.

Bananas - yes you're right. I think she feels quite disconected to her DM. I think she feels hurt and rejected, but I'm not sure there's much I (or DH) can do to fix that. We have offered that she could have DSD for more one to one time at the weekend, and she says she doesn't want that. She isn't getting quality time in the week - because of the commuting, heavy school workload, etc, so reducing that won't make much odds one way or the other. What DSD needs is more quality time with her DM, but I can't give her that. And when DSD complains about her DM, I'm finding there's a fine line between trying to be supportive of their relationship ("I'm sure she didn't mean to upset you; Maybe she was having a bad day"....) and being dismissive of DSD's concerns. There's also a fine line between encouraging her to see more of her DM, and making her feel pushed away and rejected by us too. It's not easy.

I do very much know that his ex doesn't want to have the DC at the weekend - because she can take them any time she wants, and she very rarely does.

It's quite concerning that the adults in this 15 year old girls life still view her as a "chattel" to be 'taken' by her mum whenever her mum wants. I can understand (but do not agree) that the lives of younger DCs can be shared out between parents, but once a DC reaches teenage years, suggesting that she is at the behest of her parents is niaive at best and controlling at worse.

It may be that your DSD wants to spend more time with her mum at weekends, or her dad during the week - but all the while the adults in her life view themselves as in control of her time, she is unlikely to actually make that known.

I don't think it's me or my DH who are treating DSD like a "chattle" to be fair. (I maybe should have said "see them any time she wants" - but that might sounds like she would come here to see them, when she would obviously take them back to hers, or out somewhere - which is all I meant by the word "take")

We've always been really relaxed about which DSC are with us which nights, and the DSC know this. DSD hasn't said she wants to see more of her DM at the weekend, and hasn't been invited to do so by her DM. So I guess you could say she and her DM are both responsible for the weakness of their relationship if you wanted. But DSD is 15, and probably doesn't really know what she wants/needs.

I agree with you that DSD ought to be old enough to have a real say in where she spends her time, but if she declares she wants to live here, or just spend one extra night a week here, and her DM says she can't - we can't just decide to let her can we? Not til she's 16. DH would have to go to court to get residence - and that would cause a lot of hostility. So the legal set up does view an under 16 as a possession really doesn't it? The court order says where she lives, and can only be flexed if both parents agree, or if we were to return to court. We can't tell DSD she's a free agent, if her mother regards her as a chattle.

SouthAmerican - I think that the trouble is, when parents separate, how and when they go to each parents is often quite complex and often to do with past dynamics. I agree with you to an extent that the kids shouldn't be just passed between each other - but leaving it up to the child is just as loaded too. For a child to actually know and be able to clearly say what she/he needs is quite tricky. Especially as they may not know what they need while they are having to grow up - hard enough in itself! This child doesn't want to cause any trouble by the sounds of it.

pink There isn't a' lot you can do to fix her relationship with her mum I agree, except you are in the middle of it - which is a very hard position to be in. I'd encourage her to find some way of communicating what she wants about her situation to her mum directly - ie tell her 'OK, if you do feel that your mum upset you, how do you think you could let her know so that she is able to understand how it made you feel?' And about seeing more of her mum, let her know that as she grows older she can have more say about what she'd like to do, when, with each parent, and that it is perfectly OK to ask. She might not get what she wants each time, but encourage her to find her own balance and feel a little more empowered?

. We can't tell DSD she's a free agent, if her mother regards her as a chattle.

Of course you can! The 15 year olds I know are quite capable of voting with their feet; if she wants to come to yours every night after school, and knows that she is welcome to do so, how on earth is her mum going to stop her?

It's more tricky if her mum is refusing to allow her to spend time at her house at weekends - yes, that will make her feel rejected.

To be honest, the language you are using, referring to residence orders and such like, is totally inappropriate for a 15 year old. Courts would not usually issue a child arrangement order for a NT 15 year old. The expectation is that young people can make their own decisions at that age.

Thanks banana , that's a really good idea about how to handle the negative comments about her DM. I've always been anxious not to bad mouth her DM, so have ended up rather making light of the problems she's raised. But helping her find ways to articulate how she feels would do neither, and could help empower her in the relationship. She's not great at expressing her feelings so it's quite likely her DM isn't always aware when she's upset her.

She's here tonight and says her DM has agreed to the Thursday nights for as long as the road works are making the bus very slow (this has been a big problem the last few weeks) so that's good. I'm trying to police her homework a bit more, though have just found her asleep on her bedroom floor.

But south american that's not correct. There is an existing court order, that was made at the time of the divorce and is still in operation. If she just stayed here her DM could demand her back home, because she's 15. Just like she could demand she comes home from a friend's house. Whether she'd try to physically enforce that, I'm not sure but I don't think any of us would want to put it to the test. It would surely put DSD under a lot of stress at a time when she seems quite vulnerable already.

I'm well aware that if DH took it back to court they would listen to what DSD wants, at her age, but he doesn't want to do that, for obvious reasons.

pink if there's an existing court order, that explains why your DSD mum won't "take" her DD for weekends.

Nothing to do with not wanting to, or whether your DH lets her or not, she is court-ordered to ensure her Dad spends every weekend with her Dad, irrespective of her DDs views.

That puts a totally different perspective on the situation and makes your comments about your DSD mum not wanting to spend weekends with her DD even more churlish.

Out of interest, Which of your DSDs parents wanted her to spend every weekend with her dad?

*DD spends every night with her Dad, obviously.