Worried about DSD - how to help without causing further conflict?

[pinkprimroses]

My DSD is 15, just started Y11. She - and her two brothers - live with us every weekend, and stay with their mum in the week. She's been noticeably unhappy the last few weeks but I'm unsure how best we can help.

A key issue seems to be that she finds the bus ride (1 hour each way) to school from her mum's hard going. We live a short walk from her school so she'd rather stay here more in the week. I suspect from things she's said she'd rather just live her full time, but she's not one to want to cause conflict, and aware that her DM wouldn't want this. DH has tried to compromise by saying she can stay her more in the week if she wants, and she's been doing this quite a bit. She asked if she could make it a regular thing on a Thursday - ie just extend the weekend really, and DH said no problem and he thought her DM would be find about it, but turns out she isn't fine, and has accused him of trying to "poach" her children night by night..... and reminded him that the court order (in place since they divorced about 7 years back) is for the DC to reside with her in the week. We're a bit surprised by this reaction as she has generally been quite flexible about them stopping over here the odd night in the week, and DSD did do it regularly last summer term as she had a drama rehearsal. I suspect that it's because I'm correct that DSD is working up to saying she'd rather just live here, and her DM is aware of this. I'm fairly sure that if DH pushed it via court, they would listen to DSD's wishes and she could live here if she wanted, but would it be worth the conflict that would entail?

It's complicated by the fact that she's generally struggling with life at the moment. She's finding her workload hard at school, and has been procrastinating rather than getting on with it every way possible - watching youtube, sleeping, tidying her room, watching movies.... But her form teacher's just rung to say he's concerned about her wellbeing - that she's been crying a lot at school, complained about sibling bullying (which we think was a bit of a one-off and now resolved) and has been referred to the school counsellor. She's told them things that have made them concerned about her mental health which are worrying.

What to do to help? Is pushing the issue of where she lives likely to help resolve things, or just add to her stress? She's said things a few times indicating that she's not happy at her mum's - feels that her mum doesn't have any time for her, favours younger brother, never sees her - I think by the time she's got home on the bus, done homework and eaten there's probably not much time for positive interaction - all the DSC tell us they never sit downstairs in an evening - always up in their rooms whilst their DM and her DP watch TV together. It doesn't sound very happy, but we've tended to dismiss/brush over her concerns so far - though I'm wondering whether there's more to it? She's not one to open up easily.

Oh, don't be stupid. Clearly if both parents agree, the court order doesn't prevent DSD's mum from seeing her at weekends. I've said many times on this thread that she's free to do that, and she knows it. Just as the DC can stay with us in the week, if she agrees.

I'm looking for advice and support here, why are you intent on twisting everything I say as if there's some hidden agenda?

But to answer your question, both of them agreed on the every weekend access system. They were both happy with it. DH was working long hours so midweek access wasn't possible and he's always been keen to see lots of the DC. His ex was happy to have the weekends without them.

But at that point in time the DC were all being driven to primary school, so no issues over the long bus commute, and I think it would probably have been easier for their mum to have some quality time with them in the week

pink whether intentionally or not, your posts do give the impression that you have a "hidden agenda".

Your OP suggests changing your DSD primary residence within the first few lines. You presented her mums actions as a choice - not actions that were in line with a court order. And you have presented yourself as an equal to your DSD parents in her life - yet the decisions made are your DSD parents alone, you do not have any involvement in them.

The fact that there is a historical court order regarding contact and residence means that at some point in the past, your DH and his ex disagreed on arrangements for the DCs. Applications for a contact or residence order had to be made to the court by one parent. From what you have said, you seem unaware of what that disagreement was, because you believe that both parents wanted the same contact arrangements. That is clearly not the case. The existence of a court order is evidence of that.

As you were not party to those proceedings, you cannot know whether your DSD mum is choosing to stick to the court order because of things that were said at that time. Depending on the history between them, your DSD mum may have been advised not to seek agreement or variations to contact from your DH. She may have accepted that this arrangement is the best way of avoiding further disagreement or conflict between them. I did exactly that with my ex - stuck to the arrangements without seeking variation - not because I didn't want to - but because the response to that change from my ex, even though he would agree to it, wasn't good for my DD or me!

It seems to suit your purposes to attribute the motive of "wanting her DC free time" to your DSDs mum sticking to the court order - and link that your DSD current unhappiness.

While your DSD may well be unhappy with the current arrangements, (although it may well be something totally unrelated) you cannot possible know the reasons why her mum is choosing to behave in the way she is.

I think you've misunderstood, or maybe I've not explained properly - the thing that my DH (and his ex) have referred to as a court order is the residence agreement that was drawn up consensually at the time they divorced. It forms part of the divorce legal paperwork.

Sorry if I've used the wrong terminology and given the impression there must have been court cases not been aware of. There definitely hasn't been any further involvement of courts since they divorced 7 years back. It's not a high conflict situation and until now they've always both been flexible regarding when the DSC stay at each house.

Right. So there isn't a court order. The agreement you refer to is not enforceable, and I'm staggered that in 7 years, your DH and his ex have stuck to an agreement they came to when the DCs were much younger.

If your DSD decided to spend every night with her dad there is nothing her Mum could do about it, other than apply to court for a child arrangement order.

Given that there are younger DCs involved, I suggest your DH informs himself of his legal obligations and rights in relation to his DCs as it sounds as if he, and you, are woefully ill informed.

Have your dsd's parents sat together recently to talk through what is happening? If they haven't wouldn't that be a good starting point to reduce the guessing what each other wants. Maybe the mum wants to swap things too but is scared of rocking the boat.

Is that really right? That's certainly not their understanding of it. They both seem to believe that the agreement that was drawn up at the time of the divorce (which also covers child maintenance) was a legal agreement, not something that could be changed at the will of a child.

Maybe he or I should read up on how enforceable it actually is.

These situations are really tricky for everyone. Ideally people should be calmly listening to the 15 yr old and trying to put her needs first and theirs second.

And at 15, she is old enough to choose to stay at your house during the week for school etc. And see her mother at weekends, if her mother wants to, of course.

They have now had a good chat by phone - lunar - as I've mentioned in a previous post, which was constructive. They both want DSD to be happier, and I'm hopeful may try to communicate a bit more in future about her too.

But on the issue of which time DSD spends in which house, DH has said clearly that he thinks DSD would benefit from some one to one time with her DM (which would have to be at weekends, realisitcally) and her DM has said clearly that she doesn't want to do this. (She said the last time she took DSD anywhere DSD was unappreciative, so she's not doing it again). I know this may be hard to comprehend for those of you who (like me) would find it hard not seeing your DC every weekend, but I'm honestly not lying, and nor am I second guessing what she thinks. And it's entirely consisentent with everyting else she says and does which all say clearly that she is "off duty" at the weekends, and does not want to change that. I'm not trying to rubbish her, or judge her as a mother - honestly. I'm absolutely sure she loves her DC and wants them to be happy. But I can't explain the situation any other way.

pink - I know plenty of mothers who feel that way, and plenty who don't. I know mothers who send their dc off to stay with their really not great fathers (who I also know) because the weekend is "their time." The dc don't want to go, but tough shit on them.

In the real world these things do happen.

If he's tried to talk to the mum and nothing was resolved I think your dh is just going to have to ask her if she wants an extra night and then deal with the fallout after.

Your dsd can't just be miserable because nobody wants to rock the boat. I don't think you can sit on you hands any longer to keep an uninterested mum happy. Sorry if that sounds harsh

She's agreed to the extra night as a temporary arrangement now lunar - so I think we'll just go with that, for now, and see how it goes. Maybe one day less commuting will be sufficient, and will help her get back on top of her life. She's also having the counselling ongoing at school so hoping that may help too.

DSD is sensitive and doesn't like conflict so won't find it easy if her DM puts pressure on her to stop it, but at least once the routine's established it'll hopefully be easier for it to remain (if DSD wants it to of course).

DSD is sensitive and doesn't like conflict so won't find it easy if her DM puts pressure on her to stop it

Your DSD is reaching the age where she will understand that she is responsible for her own happiness, not her mums.

If she carries on avoiding situations which her mum disapproves of, or succumbs to the pressure put on her, then she may well be posting on the 'stately homes' thread of MN when she's an adult with a family of her own, still trying to appease her mum at the expense of her own happiness.

Your DH has a responsibility to equip his DD with the skills to cope with whatever life throws at her - and that includes the skills to recognise, acknowledge and manage manipulation at the hands of her mum.
The counselling at school is a brilliant first start, and reinforcing that she is not responsible for her parents feelings and behaviour is essential when one parent is unwilling to put her DCs feelings first.

pink so the DM said the last time she took DSD anywhere DSD was unappreciative, so she's not doing it again
That is pretty shocking. And quite sad. This mother sounds like she has really got used to not having to spend time and help her daughter through teenagehood and school etc and has stepped back from being a parent too much. It definately does happen, it is the case for my DSCs DM.

I suppose you just have to wary of getting so in the middle that you end up too angry at her mum or do things on her behalf too much. She's 15 and growing so helping her figure out her own relationships with her own parents is probably the best way forward. Which may take time!

Great post Pink.
You're a marvelous step mum. All you've discussed seems eminently sensible.

As an aside, my 15 year olds haven't wanted closer relationships with parents. They want to be popular and have friends and to be cool. Very self absorbed. They need parenting but they don't see it as relevant. They want to be popular!

You, as the NR parent/step parent can say to DSD that you know she's sad. You want to cheer her up because you love her and you know she'd like to be more happy.

Small acts of kindness like taking her on a clothes shopping day, allowing, encouraging a Garty at your house (Gathering and Party) and sleepover with her crew/squad/gang (!?) or supporting another social interaction like giving lifts from school to bowling, then collecting, is another idea. Helping boost her self worth.

She should be studying, but the emotional lift of gaining friends might help her be more focused on the GCSE'S.

Also, last thing, encouraging a warm relationship with her brothers and helping her know it's in all their interests to get on...that could be really positive for her?

Thanks dontmind

I think you're right that teenagers often need parenting more than they want it. Have been trying to balance giving DSD the care and attention she needs, along with policing of homework this weekend, which isn't always appreciated. And the needs of the 4 other DC in the house... Not easy.

That's a good point about the seeing friends thing - I should try to encourage that a bit more as she doesn't see much of friends, and you're right that that can be a good motivator - it always was for me when I was a teenager. Though DSD is a lot more introverted than me, and living in a large family maybe doesn't crave company so much. She mainly seems to crave sleep at the moment, and hard to know if that's physical tiredness or an emotional low.

I just wanted to clarify the court order vs consensual arrangement. It sounds like they agreed contact informally, perhaps through mediation which was submitted alongside the divorce petition as arrangements for the children need to be agreed before the divorce will be granted. This is not a legally binding document in the same way that it would be if the parents had been through a court process. Whilst it states the arrangement, any breach of this is looked at poorly by the courts but will simply result in an emergency arrangement order (if the aggrieved parent pursues this) whilst further agreements can be made. A court order - as the name implies - is signed off by a judge and is a legal document which, if breached, can lead to serious consequences such as jail time.

It sounds as though the current arrangement could be changed either through a chat with each other or mediation if they want a more formal record (although this is not legally binding - but would be useful if court loomed on the horizon for whatever reason). Whereas, they would need to return to court if they wanted to change a court order.

Mediation can also include children and at 15, this could be a great place for your DSD to have a voice as to what she wishes and have it agreed by someone impartial who is only there to guide everyone to a solution which works for you all. I would add, mediation does only work if everyone is amicable but from their phone call, they don't sound a million miles from this.

Hope that helps but I would look into this as their existing arrangement sounds like it has more flexibility than you perhaps think. ..

Thanks stoplaughing - I had a bit of a look online and concluded much as you've described - what they have is not a court order, it's just an agreement as to what was to happen after they divorced. I don't think DH meant it to be set in stone, and his ex has been OK about changing things on an ad hoc basis, but clearly wants the routine to remain as they set it out. So if DH just told DSD she could stay here for whichever nights she wants, he wouldn't be breaking any laws, which is good to know.

In reality though he doesn't want to cause conflict with his ex so has been telling DSD she must ask her mum too. Still hoping they can agree things - the Thursday night is now agreed until the roadworks end (which in reality may be a very long time....) and she's also been staying over on a Sunday night, though agreeing this a week at a time. I don't mind that on a Sunday as we feed the DSC anyway so it doesn't matter if I don't know in advance whether she's staying over, whereas the extra Thursday night was more difficult when she'd just turn up unexpectedly, so good that that's agreed for now at least.