Avoid 'a scene' at the expense of contact?

[WakeyCakey45]

Things have been quiet between DH and his ex for a few months; the court order left very little room for manoeuvre so DH has been picking DSS up and dropping him off as his ex required - usually to DSS grandmas house, which suits DH as he doesn't have to see his ex. All arrangements are made by email.

But, in the last few weeks, DHs ex has referred a few times in her emails to a particular document she wants DH to sign (relating to Investments in DSS name, on which they are both signatories). DH made it clear several years ago that he's not prepared to agree to what she wants, but every year, she drags it up again, demands he does what she wants, and throws a hissy fit when he won't. Shes cited his refusal to agree with her on this matter as "abusive" on court documents and statements.

Ex has now emailed DH to say that she has rearranged her plans for the weekend so that DH can pick DSS up from her rather then grandma as previously agreed, and that DH can "sign the forms at the same time".

Based on past experience, DH knows that if he doesn't do what she wants, she'll cause a scene - lose her temper, shout at him, drag DSS into it and it's likely to result in DH leaving (to avoid her abuse) without DSS. If that happens, then it's unlikely that contact will resume. DSS is 11, and old enough to decide whether he wants to see his Dad or not - and he only ever wants to see his dad if his mum is ok with it.

DH feels backed into a corner. If he emails his ex back and says he doesn't agree and won't sign the form then it's inevitable that ex will bad mouth DH to DSS, and DSS will decide he doesn't want to see DH at the weekend, but if DH leaves it and doesn't respond, DSS will see his mum having a go at his dad, get upset and decide to stay with his mum, anyway.

I think he should still go. In his DS's eyes it will show that his dad wants to see him regardless of issues with his mum.

DH had this sort of problem in the beginning with his ex. He would turn up to get the DSCs, she would refuse, he would stay a while then leave without them. But they always knew he came for them. She couldn't say he hadn't tried.

demands he does what she wants
by not signing isn't he doing the same thing? Has there been any sensible discussion about this from either side? Any attempt to mediate or suggestion that it should be resolved amicably?

fedup there's a huge backstory.

Yes, you could say that DH is being as stubborn as she is because he is not agreeing to what she wants to change. They originally agreed what would happen with these accounts in mediation before they divorced 6 years ago (I've seen the documentation) but within three weeks she demanded they changed it (emails) and she revisits the same argument every few months ( yes, for the last 6 years) - resulting in all sorts of drama.

I'm particularly sensitive to this issue now because over the last 2 years, there have been a number of disagreements between them that started over this issue which have escalated and resulted in my DD and I being dragged into their drama - allegations, social workers and so on. So every time is comes up, it fills me with dread.

Discussion/mediation has never been successful between them - her stated position to mediators, child protection professionals and magistrates (and me) is that by disagreeing with her, DH is abusing her and the DCs. She has even decided that I am also a victim of his abuse! DH has tried in the past, but since the most recent allegations, he has avoided telephone conversations, preferring to keep everything in writing. Trying to discuss it in writing infuriates her - although did produce the gem "why are you so difficult? Why can't you just do what I want?". It's hard to reason, discuss or mediate with someone so intransigent.

He's not making any demands of her - he just wants to leave things as they are for the DCs to benefit when they are older.

I guess it kind of depends on how big the consequences of signing the document would be.

Your situation sucks, but I think you have kind of answered your own question. What could be worse than DSS refusing to ever see his father again? Nothing really. I think whatever the effect of signing the documents would be, it's probably not as bad as that. It's totally rubbish that your DP is being manipulated into doing as his ex wants, but you know that there's no fighting it without losing the children into the bargain...

Does he think she will spend the money and that is why she wants to be sole signatory? Or is it just that she wants the control and how much savings are we talking about?

why won't he sign? will it put the DS money/investment at risk?

if so, he goes to collect his son, takes the forms and says he'll get is financial adviser to look at them.

if she wants him to sign them on the spot, he won't and she'll have to deal with the consequences of HER actions.

I'd be tempted to arrange to have his saving spilt into 2 and she is signatory and has control of half and your dh has control of the other half...

I'd be tempted to arrange to have his saving spilt into 2 and she is signatory and has control of half and your dh has control of the other half...

He proposed that in mediation 6 years ago. She refused.

Yes, she wants sole control - and to withdraw a significant proportion now (just as she wanted to with DSDs fund last year).

She has form for spending the DCs money - she withdrew from DSD account all the money I paid to DSD before she went to college and used it to cover the cost of DSD "keep". coincidently, she also applied to court for a no-contact order between DSS and DH at the same time - I'll never forgive myself for inadvertently funding that particularly horrific chapter of our lives.

riverboat DH is resigned to the fact that sooner or later, DSS will reject him completely and go no contact. It's just a case of what the trigger will be. As DH sees it, he can't parent his DSS in a traditional sense, but he can at least protect his financial investment in DSS future. Sadly, I think that is misplaced - I think the DSC will be coerced into handing over the money to their mum when they do get it, anyway. Being 18 years old is a long way from being free of an abusive mother.

Bloody awful for your DH a no-win situation.

I would be very hesitant in signing this form given what she had done to DSD money. Is DSD aware of what her mother done?

scarlett very much so. She came to us for support when she found out what had happened - but not before she'd been arrested for shoplifting and begged the police not to tell her mum.

The drama that followed was horrible - but the end result was inevitable - DH was painted the bad guy and both his DCs rejected him.

DH had supported DSD to open a bank account several months earlier, but within weeks, she'd confessed to her mum that she had it (she knew her mum would be upset/angry) and she changed the address on the account to her mums house and shared her PIN/internet passwords with her Mum. We didn't know any of that until she came to us saying her mum had taken the several hundred £'s I'd paid her for working so she had no money to take to College with her.

But if he gives in this time then next time she wants her own way she will do the same thing. I think he should dig his heels in and not sign. People like her only get worse.

vivienne he has no intention of signing - his frustration stems from the "no win" situation he finds himself in.

He is trying to decide whether going to picking DSS up (so reinforcing to DSS that he is committed to contact) is more beneficial than avoiding the inevitable scene that will ensue.

Its more important to show DSS how important he is.

Awful situation granted, but DSS needs to know he is top of his dad's priorities.

Wakey, I feel for all involved. Each time DH goes to pick up his DC his ex always causes a scene too. I'm not sure the woman is even capable of being amicable if she wanted to. Everything has to be on her terms and her terms only. It's seriously emotionally draining.

Is there another person who could collect DSS on your DH's behalf so he can avoid the scene? Having said that, if she's anything like my DH's ex she'll just refuse to allow them to come and throw the blame on DH not being bothered.

No, DSS mum won't hand over DSS to anyone else - although she's happy for him to leave from his grandmas with no supervision - DH rarely sees his exMIL even tough the majority of contact begins or ends at her house. To be fair though, DSS would refuse to leave with anyone else anyway - I'm sure I'm not the only one familiar with the look of sheer panic that crosses a DSC face when they are faced with a situation they know will enrage their mum.

At one point, exchange was through school at CAFCASS' recommendation, but once DSS got old enough to want to walk with mates rather than a parent, his Mum started intercepting him when he was on his way to meet DH.

After the most recent court case, DH has to provide "entertainment" for DSS every other Saturday for 4 hours - it's not meaningful contact in any way, as it is entirely focused DSS doing some form of leisure activity. The court clerk was living in the 1950s and advised DH (as we were leaving the court building) to buy a season ticket to the local theme park.
But yes, it's important that DSS knows that DH kept trying despite the aggro. Even if, right now, the DCs say they want DH to "do as he is told" in order to keep their mum happy, when they are older, I hope they'll look back with a different perspective.

Hold on, so mum takes dsd's money, dsd knows mum took it but dad is the bad guy? How is that possible?

On another note your dp should absolutely go to get ds.

Sorry you are facing all this op

Hold on, so mum takes dsd's money, dsd knows mum took it but dad is the bad guy? How is that possible?

I know! seems incredible doesn't it? She'd make a brilliant politician - she can persuade people that black is white!

In this case, DH went into bat for DSD, supported her to talk to her mum about it (which she wanted to do but was too scared), and offered her various options (using our address for her mail, paying her an allowance, even living here if she wanted to).

DSD challenged her Mum (DH was there at the time), Mum told DSD that: she'd been manipulated and brainwashed by her Dad (and yelled at DH) and told DSD that she was so sorry that her Dad had bullied and abused DSD yet again (and yelled at DH). And she told DSD that of course, DSD is old enough to understand how hard it is to raise two DCs on her own, without any help (and yelled at DH) and said that of course DSD knows that her mum is doing the best she can and they don't need anyone else (and threw DH out). DSD was then "treated" to a new iphone. Her Mums actions were forgotten and it was the DSC and their mum against abusive DH and the world, again.

Poor DSD has always felt responsible for her mum - CAFCASS referred to it in their first report 6 years ago (DSD was 11), and it's not changed. Most of the conversations we had with her last year included her saying " I just can't do that to Mum". She carries a lot of guilt because she chose to go to college to follow her dream rather than do what her mum wanted her to do when she left school. She's "making it up" to her mum by going along with everything else her mum wants.

Wakey get your DH to film pick up and use as evidence as to why pick ups face to face are not workable to the ex's hostility.

This needs to go back to court.

There are various spy devices you can buy for the job

eg Spy Glasses

sister On what grounds could DH return it to court?

To nail down the pick ups.

The court order is not tight enough in this respect.

You know she's going to be hostile so use that be filming it. Let her hang herself.

You could even ask police to attend because you fear a breach of the peace, as you (DH) are being harassed and suffering financial abuse.

Thing is, it doesn't matter what the court order says - If DSS knows his mum is angry/cross/upset with DH, he'll refuse contact. Taking ex back to court is a sure fire way of contact stopping; it took 5 months last time.

And even when a new order is issued, if it's not exW way, DSS won't want to go (he already refuses contact if he knows DH is planning something his Mum doesn't approve of) - and DH won't drag an 11 year old boy into a car against his will.

As expected, ex ambushed DH when he arrived. He pulled up at the end of the drive at the agreed time and waited in the car as he'd seen DSS look out of the window.

Apparently, ExW appeared, walked down the drive, pen and clipboard in hand (yes, really!) and opened the car door and leaned in, saying "DSS has just popped to the toilet, while you're waiting you can sign the form".
DH lightheartedly said that he wasn't going to sign without reading it, surely she knew him well enough to know that, but to leave it with him. Ex got stroppy "Why can't you just sign it? You're always so difficult. It's for the good of the DCs". He took the form and tucked it in the car door pocket just as DSS came out of the house. Before ex could say anything, DH called out "come on DSS, in you get" and left exW chewing a wasp on the pavement!

So, DH now has the form, all filled in with the various options ticked and signed by ex with no discussion about her decisions (which he doesn't agree with anyway). I'm taking bets on how long before ex starts hassling DH for it back

(Sadly, I imagine when she does finally realise he's not going to return it signed, DSS will stop seeing DH. It was inevitable that something would trigger his rejection again).

(Sadly, I imagine when she does finally realise he's not going to return it signed, DSS will stop seeing DH. It was inevitable that something would trigger his rejection again).

That's the thing with people like that - anything can trigger them off - even an innocent look. Sadly, I think they'll always be ticking away ready to explode even when the DCS are fully fledged adults. Yet, they aren't in the wrong and the ex is the abusive one because they don't give in to what they want...

Yet, they aren't in the wrong and the ex is the abusive one because they don't give in to what they want...

At least DHs ex is now open about her belief that it's solely DHs disagreement with her that makes him abusive.

It was a lot harder when there were false allegations to "justify" her belief. Fortunately, she realised that continuing down that path was risky, because she could not rely on the DCs to "follow her script".

Both DCs know, rationally, that their mum is unreasonable when she accuses DH of bullying and abuse when all he has done is have a differing point of view to their Mum. Unfortunately, they also know how much easier and less chaotic their lives would be if DH did just do as he was told.

They've reached the point where they resent him for not complying, because his refusal to acquiesce is taken out on them. In their eyes, he is the rebellious classmate whose behaviour unfairly leads to the whole class being kept behind at break. They know it's actually their mum who is being unreasonable, but it's easier to "blame" the person who is not complying.

Even when DH has limited, or no contact with his ex and/or the DCs, he is still the cause of upset in their lives. They have both confirmed that their mum regularly gets upset, and rants and raves about DH even when there has been no interaction for months! His mere existence makes their life more difficult - and that is something they'll never "grow out" of.