How to deal with a child that feels no remorse?

[Tiggywinklespinny]

Dsd 10 has been having horrendous tantrums lasting anywhere between 1 - 1.5 hrs.

Dh used to shout, tell off, smack, reason. Nothing worked. So now when she starts which is always 5 minutes after bedtime we ignore her.

She bangs the wall, stamps on the stairs, slams the bedroom door all whilst shouting about how no one listens, we don't care she hates us we're horrible.

For the record WE DO listen to her, we do nothing but. There is constant communication between dsd and her parents and if asked myself too.

She does eventually give up and go to bed but the next day she shows no remorse, won't apologise and when dh speaks to her she says she feels she's done nothing wrong.

Dh and his ex have removed privileges etc still no improvement.

Is this normal? How else could this issue be handled?

Dh ex passes it off as hormones, however it's not just her behaviour that's in question it's the fact she feels she doesn't need to take responsibility.

She is obviously trying to communicate something - not agreeing with her methods or your DH smacking her. Family counselling?

If she's ignored 10 minutes after bedtime then she isn't being listened to is she? She's obviously in quite a state to be acting out that way. I can see that she wouldn't feel she has to apologise as she has been upset and not listened to from her perspective.

I think she needs to be seen as a child that is hurting a lot and needs some help rather than a child in need of "discipline". She has a lot of difficult feelings and needs help expressing them and understanding them.

Usually when a child isn't remorseful, it's because their shame is very deep, and they can't risk it coming to the surface. One way of managing this is to voice the emotions that are probably going on silently ' it mut have been hard for you to come down to breakfast this morning knowing how you behaved last night. You must have been wondering what we would say, and a bit scared that we would be angry'. And then just carry on as normal. It can take a while, but it's very effective, as they can see you are trying to understand.

This sounds like somewhat unusual behaviour for a child her age, so I would try to find out what is behind it, rather than how best to punish it.

She is 10.
She is angry.

I don't think anyone really is "listening" to her. that is not just hearing what she says, but being someone she can trust and help her come to terms with her issues. Her father: "shout, tell off, smack, reason". Her mother writes it off as "just hormones".

You are looking for remorse - but she is still not being listened to.

I would recommend some type of counselling. DSD needs help to understand and cope with her feelings (she is only 10). some family counselling to help the family dynamic improve could also help. DSD may also have some kind of undiagnosed SN, but you can't tell because at present no one knows why she is angry - and it could not be for the reasons you guess/or she says. She probably doesn't know why.

This has been a somewhat regular occurrence for the past 2 years. Only ever at bedtime. It's almost as if she feels she's missing out on something so creates to get attention. This happens both at ours and at her mums. We share 50/50 care.

I don't know how to get to the bottom of it as talking to her doesn't seem to go anywhere she has no reasoning for it and the morning after is sulky and actually quite rude to me even though I stay out of it!

Nothing has changed really, I have been with dh since dsd was very young. Dh and his ex parted ways mutually when she was 1. I just wish I could find out what was going on so we could help her.

Read The Explosive Child. It changed a lot for me and my son. I'd also recommend family counselling and agree with the other posters that it doesn't sound like she is being listened to and it's her perception rather than yours that will make the difference here. She's telling you she needs help.

Have you asked what she would like to happen at bedtime? For a while could you pretend she is a little younger and curl up with her? Perhaps read to her? Stay with her until she's settled?

Not sure what to suggest but her being in a state for an hour after bedtime is really not good for her. I think you're right to be thinking in terms of "helping her" rather than "disciplining her". If you were really upset and cried on a best friend, you wouldn't expect her to want you to apologise the next day would you?

It sounds like she might need someone else to talk to. Is there counselling available through school? Or perhaps the doctors. If she isn't able to feel you are safe to confide in she needs someone she can talk to.

So she shows remorse for stuff at other times, just not bedtime?

I agree with other posters re counselling.

But meanwhile I would try cuddles. Lots and lots and lots of cuddles. See if that helps.
All of you may have to do extra cuddles for weeks. See if that helps. You dont even need to speak much when cuddling.

My DC's worries and concerns often come out at bedtime. A lot of our best talks have happened then.
Even I have noticed that sometimes just as I quieten down to sleep worries from the day resurface.

Maybe you need to alter the bedtime routine to give more chance to talk. is there anything which would help her sleep?

I agree with pretty much everyone, she's wanting to be heard, but as she's only 10 she doesn't know how to communicate with you.

Remorse is quite an adult emotion - I've found anyway - and it takes time to realise other people have feelings too and our actions impact on them.

My dd2 threw tantrums until she was about 13 - blimey, I didn't realise it wasn't so long ago! She only calmed down, when she found a way to talk to us without the 3 hour circus. Her 'tantrums' were legendary. She's 16 now and very much calmer. I think she grew up finally, that there are easier ways to be heard if you like. A big thing would be when she'd done something wrong, but lie about it! You can see how it would escalate. I started by saying to her at the start of ' Dd2 have you done.... Now, your not in trouble, I'm not bothered by it, but I need to just know how it happened so we can stop it happening again. I don't want a fight or to see you cry, so come show me what happened'. At first she'd still lie, but persistence paid off and eventually she'd own up and we'd say ' pet, wasn't that much better than the 3 hour scream fest? Let's go for ice cream to celebrate.'
Now if she wants to talk, she just comes to chat normally when I'm in the bath and it's much nicer.

Best of luck!

This what I don't understand, when she's collected from school we have a chat about her day, usually there's been an upset and so we talk about how she feels, how can we resolve it and give her support.

Bedtime she gets 1-1 time with dh to discuss anything that may have arisen whilst she's settling down. When they're done dh comes downstairs and 5 mins later bedroom door opens and 'dad can you come up' if he says 'it's bedtime' she goes into total meltdown.

I just don't get it, both myself and dh have had bedtime chats and cuddles. I leave dh to sort bedtime unless she asks for me. We do spend time listening to her, it just doesn't seem enough and it's now coming across as her attention seeking.

I can't work out her triggers, we adjusted bedtime to 30 mins later incase it was because she wasn't tired. I've suggested dh speaks to his GP and perhaps gets her to see someone but for both him and dsd mum this seems to be ignored.

It's almost as if admitting that dsd needs help makes them bad parents rather than seeing this as a way to give dsd the tools to cope better with whatever she's feeling.

I'm at a loss and I'm frustrated because the shouting the and screaming is beyond anything I've ever experienced.

I kind of agree with others I think there must be something that's an issue to cause her to act this way, however I think her behaviour is totally unacceptable no matter what! Whatever was wrong with me when I was ten I would NEVER have dared act so rude, naughty or disruptive!

You say too that usually something has upset her at school? That's not the norm either, sometimes yes but every day no. Perhaps this is part of the issue?

Is she having any issues in school? Does she have any other behavioural issues?
If you or her father or mother went to her when she calls - what would she then say? What is the issue for her?

There are lots of things I could suggest - but unless you get an idea (without anger) of just what the issue is then you can't deal with it. Is she frightened? Is she just seeking attention? Is she worried? Does she worry that she is left? Does she start to go to sleep then have bad dreams?

This is not a situation which can continue - their ignore it attitude is not going to sort anything - in fact it could be making things worse.
Bad parents are those who don't seek help when their child needs it.

How about this.

She kicks off. You go up to her (my dsd will often confide more in me because I'm not her parent) and say "what is the matter?" And if she says, "you don't listen" well then, "here I am, talk". You may have tried this. It may not work or help, but I have found with dsd that sometimes, visibly stopping what I am doing, sitting with her and saying "I am here, what is the matter" has really helped. The other stuff, the chats in the car, well to her that is just everyday chat, she probably doesn't feel that that is the time to have a deep and meaningful.

I suspect ignoring isn't really the way to go though. Good luck op, sounds really tough for all involved.

We have a similar issue in that my DSS throws tantrums and grunts and growls when you ask him to do something that he doesn't want to do. Bedtime or finishing a game is usually when it happens or if he gets a row.

I'm not sure if this was the cause or not but he had been getting bullied. Since we found out about the bullying the tantrums are less. He never told is about being picked on. We found out months later.

I find that I go to DSS and talk to him and try to reason with him and day things like 'no one wants you to be sad or upset' and 'why is x annoying or upsetting to you?' If I get ok response I start giving me reasons a to why he feels the way he does. I also tell him it's a secret between us and I won't tell his dad but I'll try to fix whatever it is that's wrong. Then if I still get nothing I make a few wee jokes about something or the tickle monster comes out! Sometimes it helps and other times it's a pointless exercise and DP doesn't like it cause he thinks I am pandering to him. But if it stops tears before bed I will try anything.

I definitely think maybe there is a root cause for the behaviour and is with trying to find out, but maybe try asking what should happen at bed time and then say well that's not what we think should happen but how about we meet in the middle and agree the rules.

Xx

It sounds like you are doing everything right!i think she is attention seeking and doesn't want to miss out!

Perhaps when she calls her dad to go up, he should go up.....but just once. Any more than that is silly and is her messing about.

I completely disagree yoyo. She sounds like she is quite unhappy, and if she is attention seeking, then there's a reason for it - she needs appropriate attention to deal with the issue. Ignoring her will just make it worse!And reaffirm to her that she is "ignored" from her perspective.

Are there any parenting classes you could do to help understand where she is coming from? Or family therapy? The school often have a pastoral worker who may be able to liase/ chat to her/you...

I would agree if it was occasional, or during the time after school. But every night, five minutes after bedtime? When there has been plenty of time for talking after school, it doesn't sound like it to me!

I personally disagree with 'therapy' And if there are ways toucan try to help the child before going down this route then I would be trying everything. If it's always just after bed time why not try to engage with her before bedtime play a game or jus have 1-2-1 time with her an your DP. My DP always goes up to say goodnight once kids have brushed teeth and in bed. Sometimes they have a wee chat sometimes they don't. Maybe she has got herself into a habit of kicking off if it's the same time every night.

I think spending time trying to work out te cause of the tantrum is much more important and going for family/parenting classes just isn't going to do that. Maybe even a close relative can speak to her.
Xx

It wouldn't be long term "therapy" though would it?

Seeing a pastoral worker at school or someone they could talk to would be just a third person to hear what is going on both sides and trying to help find a solution together, not usually a trained "therapist".

I agree finding the course of the tantrum is important, hence the suggestions. In 2 years of this going on as a family they haven't found the cause - instead they've tried shouting and smacking and want ways to "discipline". Parenting classes might help the family to be in a position to hear their child/ get to a place where they can see a childs perspective/work out the course of the tantrum.

Why do you disagree with therapy, always?

My son did this and granted he has an ASD diagnosis, potentially with an attachment disorder, but therapy worked wonders for us as a family (actually just me and him as dad didn't want to come) and now he has individual therapy which is also helping him.

I see what you mean and fair enough. I don't think snaking will fix anything either.

I suppose everyone just deals differently with different situIons and I can see why smacking might be an option for some parents - I'm sure it was a last resort and possible after alternatives have been exhausted. Maybe not I don't know.

I don't think I could cope if tantrums were ongoing routinely for 2 years. It's a tough situation and I hope you get it sorted. I don't have my own kids so I find my DPs kids quite a handful and I see some behaviour as totally unreasonable and unacceptable but DP knows his kids and can tell if it's an act or not. Maybe OPs partner thinks it's an act and reacting because they are frustrated.

I think we are all to quick to assume that just because a child has separated parents that the child has underlying issues and problems and the weight of the world on their shoulders.i know I wasn't perfect and had tantrums and my parents have been together 40 years! So what was my excuse? I was just a wee bugger is what!

If there is an underlying issue I hope OP you can figure it out and resolve the issues your having because it can't be fun to live like that.

Nomoretether I just don't think speaking to a stranger about personal family issues works- it certainly wouldn't help me- there is also affordability aspect. But it's just a personal opinion- it's great if you find it works.im glad it has for you xx