Trying to deal with DH's Narcissistic ExW...

[Asteria]

I am getting to the end of my tether. DH's exW is a complete nightmare and I am beginning to wonder if I can cope with this behaviour affecting the life of myself and my DS long term.
Since getting together exW has gone out of her way to manipulate and lie about everything relating to the children and has gone on a massive hate campaign to discredit DH.

When I first met their DCs she lied about an allergy to my dog to try and prevent them having any contact with them. She tried to obstruct our wedding plans, moved house after we moved to be closer to DH's DCs, sent him cosy messages whilst we were on our honeymoon - the list is endless.

Alongside all her obstructions to my relationship with DH and SCs she is also emotionally and physically neglectful towards my SCs (her DD8 and DS5). We eventually took her to court for her neglect. Generally it was lies about progress at school, emotional neglect, physical neglect (SC's slept in a hallway for 7 months whilst she renovated her house - meanwhile her partner's children had a bedroom), SS has been flagged as Dyspraxic but she has moved him through 5 schools/nurseries (3 in last 2 years) so nothing has been done about it (he is also her scapegoat), SD is worrying us too as she is the "golden child" and is is being treated in a way that we feel is not age appropriate (hair straightening, grown-up make up, high heels, talking about looking sexy etc...). The list of concerns was massive but you get the idea. There was also an issue with her withholding contact if we didn't do all the travel to collect/drop off (she did 50/50 when she lived 25 miles away, but when she moved to over 70 she refused to do any at all) - she even got her new partner to harass DH and threaten to withhold contact on her behalf (but then denied it totally in court).

Somehow the courts focussed entirely on the travel and cafcas seemed totally uninterested in all of our welfare concerns. DH was so disheartened and defeated by the whole thing that he just let it drop with the intention of going through their school/Social Services to get welfare issues sorted. A month on he is now so worried about kicking the hornets nest that he is not going to do anything. He feels powerless and we seem to argue about it all the time as I am really concerned about my SCs and feel unable to do any more than patch them up and send them home after every contact which is emotionally draining. It is also incredibly frustrating seeing her have such massive control over him - even after being separated for 3 years.
What the hell do I do?? Any advice would be massively appreciated

I really don't know you are completely stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Sadly gin isn't the answer either...

What was the outcome when you took her to court for neglect?

the neglect was totally ignored by cafcass - she literally glazed over when DH tried to talk about his concerns. It would appear that unless she stubbs fags out on them then they are not interested. It was so disheartening.

ExW lied about everything and they believed it all - the only victory that day was that she turned up looking like a really cheap Eastern European Prostitute!!!

the only victory that day was that she turned up looking like a really cheap Eastern European Prostitute!!!

wow, that's lovely.

why is she moving house so much? the school changes are inevitable if house moves happen. If dyspraxia is identified, the diagnosis with move with his school records and he will be 'worked with' in whichever school he is in - there isn't usually anything 'done' to the child for dyspraxia, it is a learn to live with condition which can be improved with targetted exercises and additional support, usually with children experiencing similar difficulties. What is happening in your household to help with the dyspraxia?

Young children grow up fast these days. It's not a neglect issue if they are interested in hair straigtening and 'adult' clothes. Not ideal a child should sleep in a hallway but assuming he had a mattress and was able to sleep (light not left on), was it better than being in a room that was being renovated? was there actually anywhere else for him to sleep?

Harassment can be dealt with by the Police - which would make it go further in court. Otherwise it's 'he said, she said'.

I am afraid there is nothing you are saying which indicates 'neglect' which is probably why CAFCASS simply aren't interested. It's a 'he says/she says' situation - you can't possibly know what goes in her house and she can't know what goes on in yours.

Your partner perhaps needs to have word with her and be 'harsh' in relation to harassment regarding the wedding, honeymoon etc. and if contact is stopped or reduced as a result, then use the court system to support him in getting access again. Whilst I have no desire to contact my ex in such a way, he would not tolerate it if I did - and he knows I won't tolerate the same kind of crap coming my way so we are very clear on where we stand. This kind of thing can be knocked on the head - albeit slowly - if actually stood up to.

And yes, likening the mother of your step children to a prostitute isn't very grown up, is it?

I always feel uneasy when a poster comes on here with a litany of abuse about their DPs Ex, including calling her a prostitute and asking for advice.

Fine if you want to vent, that's one thing, but if you think you come out of this looking good, well sorry to break it to you, but you don't.

I know that was a puerile comment and would edit it out if I could...

There are far more Welfare issues here I just didnt want to get bogged down in pages of details. In as short as possible: DSS had breathing probs whilst with us, we took to dr and a peak flow was suggested on his return to mother. She lied about taking him the the Dr (and made up the dog allergy) then refused to provide meds for his next visit, he was given inhaler whilst with us so it went home with him and only took him to his GP when my DH eventually called DSS's GP with his concerns. DSD was badly bitten by her mother's current partner's dog and no medical attention was given - she tried to hide it from us but a fortnight later the puncture wounds either side of her arm were very clear. Constantly telling the children that they are useless and stupid when she calls them during our extended contact (DSS & DSD insist on using the phone on speaker so we can't help but overhear some bits of their conversations). DSD is terrified of coming downstairs after bedtime as she says her mother shouts at her if she gets out of bed. Both have nervous habits - DSS curls up into a ball if a voice is raised near him, DSD totally shuts down and has difficulty with relationships - she also chews and picks her finger and toenails until they bleed (she took her whole toenail off once). DSD cries a lot and is unable to tell us what is making her unhappy.
The Dyspraxia was picked up in nursery as something to be followed up by mother, but he has moved schools so many times since then (with no input allowed from DH). I have 2 dyspraxic siblings so do have a vague grasp of the particular issues/difficulties DSD has to deal with.
The house moves have been v traumatic for both the DS's and DH - each time he has been led to believe that there was either no intention whatsoever to move or that the location was entirely different, right up until the last minute. The DS's mother has cut so many people off over the last few years that they have lost contact with all of their old school friends and most of their godparents. The moves were so their mother could live closer to/with boyfriends.
I am sure that I have said something (else) wrong or just written it clumsily, however at the core of this are two children whom I care about so very dearly and I feel totally powerless to help them. DH and I give them as much love and stability as we can in our short times with them, however it is heartbreaking to think that we are just patching them up to send them back to someone who seems to regard them as a combination of inconvenience and weapon against their father.

My DH has also experienced a total lack of interest in welfare concerns by CAFCASS, his statement to the court detailing the physical abuse, neglect etc was totally disregarded.
However, in DHs case, his statement was backed up by a catalogue of SocServices records that had been compiled over the course of several years - detailing all DHs (and my) calls seeking advice, the initial assessment carried out by SocServ etc.
Once CAFCASS had received these for the Schedule 2 letter, then they took an interest.

If your DH isn't prepared to rock the boat, then there's not much you can do. I called up about my DSC a few times; when DHs DD presented with hundreds of flea bites, and when their behaviour impacted directly on my own DD, but your input has very limited impact.

Ideally, your DH would begin to paint a picture of his DCs lives to professionals so that when something major happens, or it ends up back in court, there is a record of what has been going on.

My DH has never criticised his ex. He has raised issues in a way that allows the professionals to draw their own conclusions.

When his ex was causing a scene at every handover, sobbing and clinging to DSS (which in turn upset him), DH asked the school for strategies to help his DS deal with the impact of that. It was the school who concluded that his ex's behaviour was inappropriate and spoke to her about it.

When DH found out that his young-teen DD was regularly being left overnight caring for an elderly disabled relative alongside her much younger brother he sought advice from SocServ as to whether his DD would be eligible for the Young Carers programme. It was SocServ who concluded that was an inappropriate level of responsibility for his DD.

It is a long, painful, soul destroying experience. DH and I concluded several years ago that his DCs will be damaged; all DH can do is try and minimise that where he can, and be there to pick up the pieces when needed.

the frustrating thing is that DH has had over a decade of her histrionics and he is worn out - he is so worried about what she will do (via the children) if he rocks the boat and the short term impacts that will have. I am as supportive as I can be - but having had a similar childhood I am all too aware of the long term impact.
I wasn't prepared for the totally overwhelming maternal love that I have for my DSCs (I never had that from my step-parents) - all I want to do is protect them and give them every possible chance to have a happy and secure childhood but I seem totally powerless. It upsets me so deeply that their mother appears totally disinterested in their welfare and has absolutely no empathy for anyone - not even her own children.

so.....you're complaining about a mother's neglect....but your DH does nothing about getting dyspraxia diagnosed because he's 'now allowed'?

it isn't that he is not allowed mumandboys, the problem DH has that whenever he tries to approach her about any concern she flies into a vindictive rage and if he tries to go direct to school then she is even worse. She makes threats about "rethinking your access" and whips the DSC's up into an emotional frenzy - disrupting his call time and winding them up so that they are emotional wrecks when they visit.

I totally understand that as the Stepmother my opinions about her parenting will be flamed at every turn, but I am genuinely not doing this for the sake of being a bitch. I have had endless conversations with concerned friends who have known the family far longer than I have and all of them (including her godparents) have a total lack of confidence in her ability to parent in a selfless, rational and caring way. Yes DH could do more, however he is terrified of the impact that has on his children. Simply discussing school reports with DSC's teachers had repercussions. He was a victim of her mental abuse for over a decade and she has stepped up her attacks on him in the last 3 years - using the children as weapons. He is by no means a wimp - he has just been broken by her and doesn't seem to have any fight left.

ExW is a very charismatic and charming person on the surface and she has gone to great pains to discredit DH at every turn, even to the point of explaining away the symptoms that the DSC's display as being directly caused by having a violent and abusive father. She is happy to say this to anyone who will listen and at the same time harasses him to spend more time with the children he is supposedly abusing (they come to us 3 nights a fortnight and for just over 50% of the holidays) so that she can have more "time off". There is absolutely no substance behind these accusations, she is just a pathological liar.

Part of me is reading this with some sympathy and another part is reading it with some empathy for the ex.

Obviously her behavior must be very difficult for you to deal with but equally some of the criticisms of her parenting are basically down to different parenting styles. And I know that if my ex starts criticising my parenting then I get quite pissed off. And I was also quite pissed off when he slagged me off to the school. He obviously has every right to speak to the school but when he does it in a way that implies i'm not doing my job properly i'm not impressed.

Presumably if you took her to court then you have a court order so she can't stop contact.

The fact is, you can't change her, you can only change the way you react to her. Unless she is actually abusing the children she can parent how she likes. She isn't going to discuss stuff with you (and part of me can't blame her after your reasons for taking her to court) so give up trying. Just concentrate on giving the kids a nice time when they are with you. Don't discuss their mum with them unless they instigate it and give them a safe environment when they are with you.

Sorry but your DH needs to stop worrying about YOU and "rocking the boat" and start worrying about his dc! He's their father and presumably has PR? Surely HE can start the diagnostic process for his ds's dyspraxia. Quite frankly he sounds rather wet and needs to shake himself up and do what his dc cannot do for themselves.

He is not worried about me in that respect Sparkly - and he certainly isn't wet. He worries about his DC all the time - but every time he has tried to do anything in the past it has been covered up by her lies and then she has punished the children to get at him. When we got engaged she withheld his contact for Christmas, when he tried to get in contact with their old school she sent them in shoes 2 sizes too small. She refused to send clothing other than the t-shirts and leggings/thin trousers they were in (mid-winter and both with streaming colds) when he was held up in traffic and late to collect them after a 150 mile trip from the far side of London. We now provide a full wardrobe, which s fine, but if they go home in any of our clothes then she keeps them.
He asked her to try and be more positive about their time with us when she told them they didn't have to visit and then told them how much she was missing them on the phone (she asked DH not to mention missing them from the moment they separated - which he did). She worked them up into so much of a frenzy that weekend that DSD was in tears all day at school before he collected them and was near hysterical for much of the journey home. She filled their book bags with photographs of her and got DSD to write things like "I miss you so much when I am at Daddy's house" on the back. The next weekend she forgot to send their teddies (which they cannot sleep without and she had managed to remember for nearly 3 years previously) and then refused to send them in future saying he would have to "deal with it" when they cried at bedtime.
We are trying to negotiate the benefits of intervention versus the immediate effects of her wrath... What would you do? If we shut up and do what she wants she is bearable, if we don't then she is a monster and the children suffer.

We are trying to negotiate the benefits of intervention versus the immediate effects of her wrath

Yup. It's horrid.

As I said up thread, eventually your DP will come to accept that he can't protect his DCs - they will be subject to their Mums wrath regardless of whether he tows the line or not.
This was eventually brought home to my DH after he had been estranged from his DD for two years. She refused to see him because her Mum was so angry with her when she did - so DH backed off, did what he was told and left his DD alone.
She eventually made contact because her mum had been violent towards her; a regular occurrence all the while DH was absent from his DDs life. The trigger for her Mums wrath wasn't just DH; anything will set her off - and the DCs are always in the firing line.

Your DPs DCs will be damaged by their childhood with their Mum - and the important thing, IMO, is the long term, not the immediate.

I think all you do in these situations is log events with ss and build up a history. None of these events individually will trigger major concern but a case full of them will eventually. Your DH needs to speak to the school and have them do the same. These days it seems the wisdom is to keep contact with both parents whenever possible. You sound like a fab concerned sm and your DH just has to play the long game with your support. Those poor kids it is beyond awful.

thank you frog and another - I don't want a lynch mob to string her up, just a bit of reassurance that this really is more than just a different parenting style!
DH and I have barely spoken to each other for 24 hours because he told me he hasn't the energy to cope with another outburst from her and I flipped. We have has so many turnarounds where he has set out on a path to do something about the situation and she has kicked off so dreadfully that he has backed down to protect the children. It wouldn't be so exhausting if I wasn't the one that sat for hours documenting the problems we have (I proofread and adjust/rewrite everything he sends to her/writes for court etc because he is terrible at getting his point across!) and even making enquiries at local schools for places when he wanted to push for us to have the majority of residence at one point. I get all geared up (physically and emotionally) for a big push and then he decides he cannot risk her retaliatory attacks damaging the children more, so backs down.
Meanwhile I am awaiting surgery on my spine and have a pre-teen DS to deal with!

can I just document everything and approach SS without him?

Without dad? Yes. But why would you need to? If he doesn't care then why do you? And why would you be with a man ho didn't care?

My Dh never reported any of the seemingly minor concerns he/ we had about DSD's mother (a text book narc) and as such when she took an overdose at aged 14 there were only a couple of notes on her file about strange behaviour with a male teacher and as such she and her mother managed to massively downplay the whole event which I feel is very much linked to her relationship with her mum which is very worrying. We wish that we had reported the small stuff.

However, the "neglect" you mention is IMO a red herring. You are focussing on things like sleeping in the hallway (what would you suggest if the child's room was being renovated?) and hair and make up etc. which my seven year old does too. Sadly they all do it these days. Unless she is behaving in a very provocative or sexualised manner beyond what she should know about at her age of course.

What you should be concentrating on is the relationship that your children have with their father. And learn how to manage your husbands ex's behaviour and understand it. That's the real issue here I think. I think the wider issue is her narc behaviour. You need to understand the things she does and why. There are loads of books about this. Try to learn what the children are going through having a mother like this, and how you and your husband can support them through this.

Just a small point on your last post. When you say you have to write and rewrite everything because he can't get his point across... What job does he do? Is he able to get his point across there without your help?

I can very much sympathise with your frustrations as it took be a while to realise I was bashing my head against a brickwall and change tack with my partner but I do think that he will continue to get cross if you keep doing for a him something I don;t think he really wants you to. He's at the stage where he doesn't want to rock the boat. You should concentrate on strengthening your relationship and maybe one day he will ask for your help and mean it.

russian - he does care - very much, but the repercussions are so severe whenever he tries to do even the most minor thing that he is terrified of what she will to to the children if he really rocks harder. Our relationship is very strong and we are incredibly happy together (despite all the shit that has been thrown at us), but like everyone we have our moments - especially as we live and work together!

I'm not focussing on the hallway sleeping arrangement any more than any of the other things - although I should have been clearer: it was a cold downstairs hallway in the middle of a building site, the children complained of waking up cold every night (the heating was off for 6 months) and being kept awake when their mother was still up watching tv. Meanwhile she was sleeping in a bedroom with her partner and his children. DSD said it wasn't fair that she had to sleep in the cold whilst her step-brothers shared a room with their mother (she also took her partners children away for a 10 day holiday abroad after telling us it was just her and her partner so we would look after DSCs) and she has made other comments about being ignored whilst their mother plays happy families with her partner's children.

Not that it is really of any relevance but he has a very successful business in IT, where there is little need for him to write at any length. His writing is not horrendous - he just writes as a stream of thought so it can be rather disjointed when he is trying to make a point.

I do understand Narc behaviour - as much as anyone can, and have read into the particular behaviours that have an impact on DSC. DH has a very strong relationship with his children (he did the lions share of childcare before separation), which is a reassurance as we feel that they can at least feel secure and loved when they are with us.

asteria I've called the NSPCC and SocServ myself about specific concerns I've had regarding my DSC in the past. Don't phone them with a list, but the next time something happens that you are really worried about (you know they've been left unsupervised, they have unexplained injuries, or are just displaying emotional distress because of the situation) call up Soc Serv and ask for their advice - you're not sure if you are right to call, but you are worried about your stepDCs welfare Or report to the NSPCC online as those reports are forwarded on to the relevant SocServ dept.

It will be a slow drip, drip drip into the system. There's no point in telling them about the catalogue of things that have happened so far; that will be seen as bitter ex-spouse territory; but if something bothers you, ask an expert whether THEY think its of concern.

My DH ex is similar as I've explained - her reaction to DH interfering with his DS schooling choice was to apply to court to have the current court order changed to prevent all contact between DH and his DS. She never expected there to actually be a hearing, and when the court date got sent to them she phoned DH up in a panic, saying that it had all gone too far and it was all his fault because he didn't do what she said.

She initially presented well in court, and the CAFCASS Officer was quite hostile towards DH, but then when DPs ex was Faced with the Schedule 2 letter (given to her in court) she lost her temper with the CAFCASS officer because all the calls to SocServ that DH has made over the years are recorded in it. Her reaction to that was the first indication to the professionals that something wasn't quite adding up.

She is self-rep'ing, and when asked to present her case at the first hearing, said that she hadn't expected to have to speak - and then spent 10 minutes ranting, accusing DH of abuse and harassment. At the next hearing, not only were these accusations dismissed by CAFCASS and SocServ, the court ordered them both to attend the Separated Parents Information Programme. She responded to the magistrates that she didn't see the need to. Needless to say, that did not go down well. We find out in a few weeks if she's actually done it or not!

What I'm saying is that not only will your DPs ex eventually hang herself through her own actions, but her behaviour when things don't go her way will begin to reinforce what your DP will have been saying for years.

DHs ex has previously talked her way out of further SocServ intervention after she admitted assaulting her DD. i know whst you mean when you say that your DPs ex is incredibly convincing and credible. But, when under pressure because things aren't going her way, that's when she's likely to lose control in front of others - particularly if her behaviour is driven by an undiagnosed personality disorder.

Give it time, remain patient, support your DP and be gentle with each other! Accepting that the DCs will be damaged, no matter what we do was probably the hardest period of our relationship. But we survived.

I'll PM you some book recommendations that have been incredible useful for us.

Please don't take offence at the differing parenting styles comment but this is unfortunately how it would be seen by a court as she is not abusing the children in a way that would warrant social services intervention.

I understand your frustrations. I hate some of the games my ex plays and how it affects the children - especially how he favours ds over dd. I could write reams and reams on the shortfalls of his parenting. Me and dp also have some big concerns about the way dss is being brought up by his mum. But we both know we can't change either of our exes so we avoid time and energy on trying to do so. Instead we try to concentrate on what happens under our roof.

thank you frog - I am a great reader of articles etc regarding narcissism and trying to minimise damage done. We have both spoken to NSPCC at great length who suggested SS, this was at the time that we were also dealing with CAFCASS and their negative approach really knocked DH's confidence that anything could be done. During court proceedings it did turn out that exw had been contacted by SS relating to DSD being referred for some sort of treatment for separation anxiety - but she dodged all contact and they seem to have let that particular issue drop as she moved twice after the initial contact.

Is there a book on how to manage narcs so you don't have to constantly compromise your life to suit them??!!!

DH and I have had heartbreaking conversations about how we must accept that much of the damage is already done and that we have to just keep plodding on ensuring they feel safe and secure with us. DH's solicitor (who also said she had never seen such a vindictive and hateful attack during a divorce before) keeps reassuring him that they will grow up and remember his care for them despite everything - and may well end up asking to live with us. Sadly I don't think that will happen with DSD as she is such a desperate people pleaser and her mother seems to feed off it. I never believed that a mother could behave in such a vampiric way until I saw it first hand.

Ms Colour - it is such a shame that emotional neglect is not treated with the same severity as physical abuse as the impact can sometimes be much further reaching. In the grand scheme of things they have two nice big houses to live in and nice parents who don't have drink or drug problems, but that by no means indicates any less damage being done. Especially when you consider that one of the parents is mentally unstable and is running the whole show!!!