Trying to deal with DH's Narcissistic ExW...

[Asteria]

I am getting to the end of my tether. DH's exW is a complete nightmare and I am beginning to wonder if I can cope with this behaviour affecting the life of myself and my DS long term.
Since getting together exW has gone out of her way to manipulate and lie about everything relating to the children and has gone on a massive hate campaign to discredit DH.

When I first met their DCs she lied about an allergy to my dog to try and prevent them having any contact with them. She tried to obstruct our wedding plans, moved house after we moved to be closer to DH's DCs, sent him cosy messages whilst we were on our honeymoon - the list is endless.

Alongside all her obstructions to my relationship with DH and SCs she is also emotionally and physically neglectful towards my SCs (her DD8 and DS5). We eventually took her to court for her neglect. Generally it was lies about progress at school, emotional neglect, physical neglect (SC's slept in a hallway for 7 months whilst she renovated her house - meanwhile her partner's children had a bedroom), SS has been flagged as Dyspraxic but she has moved him through 5 schools/nurseries (3 in last 2 years) so nothing has been done about it (he is also her scapegoat), SD is worrying us too as she is the "golden child" and is is being treated in a way that we feel is not age appropriate (hair straightening, grown-up make up, high heels, talking about looking sexy etc...). The list of concerns was massive but you get the idea. There was also an issue with her withholding contact if we didn't do all the travel to collect/drop off (she did 50/50 when she lived 25 miles away, but when she moved to over 70 she refused to do any at all) - she even got her new partner to harass DH and threaten to withhold contact on her behalf (but then denied it totally in court).

Somehow the courts focussed entirely on the travel and cafcas seemed totally uninterested in all of our welfare concerns. DH was so disheartened and defeated by the whole thing that he just let it drop with the intention of going through their school/Social Services to get welfare issues sorted. A month on he is now so worried about kicking the hornets nest that he is not going to do anything. He feels powerless and we seem to argue about it all the time as I am really concerned about my SCs and feel unable to do any more than patch them up and send them home after every contact which is emotionally draining. It is also incredibly frustrating seeing her have such massive control over him - even after being separated for 3 years.
What the hell do I do?? Any advice would be massively appreciated

We have has so many turnarounds where he has set out on a path to do something about the situation and she has kicked off so dreadfully that he has backed down to protect the children

I lost count of the number of times this happened to us; we'd stay up til the early hours, DH would commit to a particular course of action, I'd agree to actively support him and then BAM, suddenly, DH would either not see it though, cave to his exW outrageous expectations, or just bury his head in the sand and hope it would all go away.
He'd be frustrated with himself when he realised, I'd get cross and threaten to disengage and leave him to it, and then we'd make up, talk it through and be back to square one.

It's one of the reasons I am actually relieved that his ex applied to Court. DH had more then enough grounds to apply for enforcement on numerous occasions, but never did - and I'm not sure he ever would have done (even if we had been able to afford it). His ex making an application for "no contact" not only forced the issue from DHs perspective, but it's also caused a few heads to be scratched in the court building - after all, most RP who want to withhold contact just stop allowing it - it is up to the NRP to seek court intervention. This is very unusual for the court - DH has regularly had to remind the officials that he is not the applicant.

I don't know if there is a book like that but there are heaps about changing the way you react to others and to things you can't change. Is it the 90/10 rule or something like that?

You can choose how you let it affect you, but the kids aren't adult enough so have a read of the daughters of narcissistic mothers website to understand what they're going through.

Have just been reading the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers - scary thing is that I can recognise my own mother in that too - and I am the classic scapegoat child, you should meet my sister though she is AMAZING...!!
We are in full investigation mode and have just ordered a book called Disarming the Narcissist - DH and I are 100% convinced that ExW is a Narcissist. Sadly DSD is the classic Golden Child and DSS is the classic Scapegoat - but at least we can pigeon-hole everyone so we know how to move forwards. I do feel like that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and this time it isn't going to be a train coming the other way!

Knowledge is power

at least we can pigeon-hole everyone so we know how to move forwards. I do feel like that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and this time it isn't going to be a train coming the other way!

I really don't want to be negative, but understanding something is a world apart from solving it.

'understanding' and 'labelling' may help you come to terms with the fact that there is nothing you can do, but even if your DPs ex was diagnosed with a personality disorder, that wouldn't change anything for the DCs. There have been recent high profile cases where there has been a diagnosis of personality disorder in the RP, and yet there have still been years and years of court battles, alienation and withheld contact.

The fact is, it is incredibly unlikely that your DPs ex will ever be diagnosed, and so your DP can never mention his suspicions about her mental health to anyone involved with the DCs without giving the impression that he is a bitter ex-spouse with an agenda.

Yes, you may be able to equip the DCs with skills to 'cope' with their Mums behaviour. More likely, any display of strength on their part will lead to increased rage and resistance on the part of their Mum.
Your DSC are entirely dependent - emotionally and physically - on their Mum. They need to be as compliant as necessary to survive with the least possible damage - and if that means rejecting their Dad, then they will do it. They know that their Dad will always be there, they know that their Dad loves them unconditionally and they know that no matter how badly they behave towards him, he will never abandon them. So they will do all those things in order to survive.
The hard part is for your DP (and you) to live up to their expectations.

I don't know frogs, it really helped me to understand why ex is how she is, and I'm more patient with dsd now I understand what she's up against at home.

You're right that it won't change anything. And for some it night make them feel helpless, but I found it quite empowering and also quite reassuring that her behaviour is "a thing" because I had never met anyone like her before and found her quite mystical (for want of a better word) once I realised she's just a two a penny narc, I felt more in control. Perversely I suppose.

Sadly though the children will have to wait and discover it for themselves because to push them to defy mum or deal with the fact mum doesn't have their best interests at heart would be very foolish. Not to mention unkind to them.

I just want to wish you all of you the best. I saw some very very odd behaviour from an older friend of mine towards her ex (knew them both) and her dc. It's heartbreaking, and worst of all is this common belief that all mothers are "perfect" and are never the cause of the issue

I understand that Frog - it is a shame that it's not as simple as just learning how we can deal with her to make everything less volatile between parents, although that will have an undeniable benefit.

We have the DCs with us this weekend - they have been manic, but it sounds like their mother has been on flying form recently. It was her birthday last week and DSD says her mother told her it was her "worst birthday ever". DSC's overheard her and her partner having a blazing row - DSS ran downstairs to tell them to stop but they didn't so both DSCs sat upstairs listening to them shouting. ExW then left early for a weekend away this weekend. DSC's say they argue a lot - my ever wise DSD said "when they fight it is best just to let them get on with it". She is only just 8!!! Dreadful though it may seem - this could all be positive for the long term situation. He is a decent bloke and clearly is starting to see what a vile person she can be, given that he has three young children (the youngest is only 2) I have a feeling that if she keeps going he may just sling her out of his house.

When we went to court we said that if she moved schools again (her last two were inter-year moves within 14 months) we would go for full custody to give them some stability. Although that would also mean them moving schools, we have made a massive effort to establish relationships for them with children in their year groups at the local school so that any transition would be far easier than a total clean slate as they have already had to deal with. The NSPCC advised a few months ago that given we are married (sad but it does still have a certain swing in Court) and have committed to the area and integrating DSCs into local life (local saturday clubs and friends for play dates/sleepovers when they are here), that will really help us prove that we can provide a more stable home environment than their mother. We have also gone to great pains to maintain all contacts possible with people that ExW has cut off (all godparents - even her own!! Plus children they went to pre-school and their first primary before parents separated).

I had long chats with DH last night and the night before. He is increasingly concerned after hearing about the arguing going on in DSC's other home and we both feel that getting things logged with school and SS as soon as possible, even if it is not acted upon, will help us if we have to go for full custody. Even little things like DH and I doing considerably more with their school work/reading despite only having them for only 6 nights a month all help to paint a picture (I do know they are hardly going to lock her up for never doing spellings or reading).

Thank you so much guys - so nice to have a sounding post outside of DH and I

Just be wary of what the kids tell you. They do quickly fall in to saying what they think you all want to hear. They might be telling her the same thing about you. I remember being horrified when I confronted dsds mum about calling me an alcoholic in a text to my DH, I learned that dsd had told her mum this because she knew she'd get a gleeful reaction. Dsd tells us all.the.time about how her mum and dp argue and what a horrible environment she's in at home but she's 14 now and could leave to come here any time she wants with no courts batting an eyelid. She'll still stay with her mum

Is exs partner really a good guy? Maybe he's an abusive prick and making her life a misery.

I honestly don't think any of what you've written in your last post sounds like anything other than a busy single mum, to be honest. It's lovely that you want to help with their school work and things but honestly, it doesn't happen in hundreds of households and it doesn't make you any better in the eyes of the professionals. I do, personally, think you need to let go of these her Vs is feelings.

DH has had a lot of contact with ExW's partner, when she was refusing to have any contact some months ago and he has come to the house to collect the children when she has refused. He may well be a monster - who can ever be sure of what goes on behind closed doors - but most of the time he has seemed exasperated at her behaviour and very understanding of DH's concerns.

I know that you are seeing this from an outsider's perspective Russian, but this really is a lot more than just busy single parenting! She is says she is "not obliged to work" (she was claiming benefits, despite having over £100k, in her last house) so is hardly busy by most standards - especially as she doesn't play (never has - both DSC's have deformed heads from laying in the same position practically the entire day, whilst DH was working, when they were babies - he had a home office so was aware but unable to do anything without being attacked) and cooking involves opening a packet and shoving it in the oven. She can do what she wants regarding food and entertainment - that is her prerogative, however she cannot claim to be too busy to do the 10 mins a night (or every other night) reading that the school have asked for. She hasn't written in their reading records for 6 weeks - WHO is too busy to tear their children away from the tv for that?? I am very aware of the challenges of single-parenting as I was a working one for nearly a decade - with little support and a disability.

I know it is bloody easy to be a great parent once a fortnight, I do realise that. I also see that this is very much appearing like us Vs her - but we can never get away from that. But I am not just sitting here saying I am a better mother, nor do I want to wade in and take over the little family I have married into. She has severe problems and both DH and I and a great many friends and family feel that she is not mentally stable enough to parent them in a healthy and appropriate way. We have even considered the impact that any further action would have on her - especially if DSC's came to us. We have a true empathy for her situation, she is not an inherently evil person, she is just not mentally strong enough to cope with her own issues, let alone those of two small children. She is dangerous - who in their right mind pulls on a handbrake whilst being driven in the fast lane of a motorway with children in the back of the car?? DH lost count of the number of times that she decided that was an appropriate way to get his attention!

OP, the thing is courts won't look at 'where the DCs are better off'.

Unless she is assessed as unsuitable as a parent (regardless of whether there is somewhere else for the DCs to go) the court won't change residency.
They will use the same standards of 'good enough' parenting as they would if the LA applied to remove a child from their parents.

She may be ordered to engage in a parenting programme, to accept respite care, undergo pysychiatric assessment herself, report to a SW every week but having residency of the DCs removed is almost never ordered (despite what the NSPCC say).

A lot of what you refer to will be considered by the court as differences in parenting style. So what if she doesn't read with them? What they eat? Where they sleep? They are not in danger and that is the standard being measured against.
You may well be able to offer a far better homelife, but that's not what the court will be assessing. They will be deciding if mum offers 'good enough' parenting, and if she does, then they won't change residency.

(never has - both DSC's have deformed heads from laying in the same position practically the entire day, whilst DH was working, when they were babies - he had a home office so was aware but unable to do anything without being attacked)

Sorry, but if this was neglect as you suggest, that's awful on your DH's part as well. He knew the kids were being neglected and let it go on? And not just with one child, but went on to have another with her and allow the same situation? I just don't buy it. The standard of care was good enough for your DH then, but now you are bringing up their care as babies, while DH was in the next room to make a case against her?

I agree with Brdgrl
Your DH should have stepped up a long time ago to protect his DC if he knew they were being mistreated and was too scared of her to do anything about it. That makes him as bad as her.

A lot of what you describe isn't actual neglect though, just bad parenting which isn't actually enough to have them removed from their home.

brdgrl - he didn't go "on to another with her and allow the same situation" Dh had told her he didn't think that another child was appropriate as she was clearly not coping at the time with DSD, but his ex manipulated him and their contraception to get pregnant the second time.

He did all that he could with the children when they were living together, but she would fly into rages if he interfered with the way that she parented and he was also desperately trying to run a business to pay off the massive debts that she was running up. He probably could have done more but he had been living with her rages, belligerence and manipulation for years and felt totally powerless. He had years of being gaslighted by her. He was genuinely horrified when he finally realised what damage had been done.

Oh dear. Asteria if you genuinely want to make a difference to your DSC then it would help a great deal if you are able to detach from your DHs abusive past.
You don't and can't know what went on, and if you "present his case" as strongly as you have here to anyone with whom you discuss the DCs (school, CAFCASS, grandparents), then you will be quickly disregarded.

Rather then defend your DH when questions are asked about his time with his ex, it will help your DSC if you are able to say that you can't comment on his conduct or behaviour in the past, but your experience is that he is a loving, caring dad who wants the best for them. By all means comment on things you know about directly (bruises you have seen, things that they have said to you, abuse directed at you) but try not to make the mistake of reinforcing societies preconception which will be that this is a case of warring parents who are fighting over the DCs.
To achieve that, your position should be a supportive one of their Mum - if professionals decide for themselves that she is unsuitable to have residency/sole care, then that should be despite your support of her.

I do think it's common (whether excusable or not, I'm not sure) For fathers to trust that the mothers of their children know best, and to be made to feel foolish or naive or whatever is a better word if they question them. My DH tells me his ex used to say "Do I criticise the way you do your job?! Then don't criticise the way I do mine!"

I feel very sad for my DH that he felt he had no rights or power in regard to his child because "mother knew best".

but I think he would have said something if his DD was getting a deformed head from laying flat for days on end .

Thing is, like frog says, we can never really know what went on in their marriages before they met us. It's not important anyway.

Some mums aren't very good at "playing" I know I wasn't and am still not. Her dad and his wife are excellent at it. That doesn't mean she is "better off" there. I am good at other things

My advice would be to carry on with what you are doing. Be a compliment to the parenting they experience with Mum. The years fly by soooo quickly and time is too precious to be so angry. From the voice of experience!!!!

Good grief! I'm only this vocal about it because I'm behind a shield of anonymity on here!! I actually tried to develop a working relationship with her when she refused to communicate directly with DH last year. We would discuss only the children on the phone and make arrangements for contact - that all went by the wayside when she turned on me and I found out that she was feeding me with a pack of lies and abusing my willingness to help her out whenever she wanted extra "time off". I have been so careful about not openly criticising her, whatever my personal feelings - hence why it is such a relief to be getting it off my chest here!

I know that it was their marriage and I am very careful in RL not to become the embittered second wife slagging off my predecessor. I have only commented on incidents that I have direct experiences of to the NSPCC and see it very much as DH's responsibility to deal with who and what is openly discussed regarding the time before I was on the scene.

This thread has caught my eye and I have to say it reminds me very much of my own mum.

My dad left after 12 years married to my mum and IMHO it was the best thing he ever did for all of us. Of course, my mum never saw it that way.

As an adult I have done much research as I have believed she is "not quite wired right". I love her, she is my mum after all, but she can be very, very difficult and at times downright evil to deal with.

I would recommend researching Narcisstic Personality Disorder, as a few of the events you have described resonate with many of my mum's behaviours.

My dad went to court for custody of us in the end as he was so worried about how it would turn out. "Golden child" is not just a lable - NPD parents will often pick a favourite and focus all their attention on them. The other child will still receive the necessary care to demonstrate to the outside world what an INCREDIBLE parent they are OF COURSE but it's not on the same level as the Golden Child.

My mum did and said a lot of very questionable things, all of which in the end were noted and attributed to my dad being awarded full custody. My sister and I were even assigned a social worker. THe social worker's closing statement when asked to give evidence in court? "It is in my opinion that the best thing for these children is if their mother was run over by a bus". Harsh, and horrible to hear, but stepping outside of the daughter role and examining the cold facts of her behaviour, I can see why he said it.

Honestly, were it not for my stepmum and dad I would probably be a very weird, unbalanced person as an adult. They provided the ground rules and boundaries that every child needs and now as a grown up I appreciate that.

My advice? Document EVERYTHING. Every incident, write down who said what, when, who was there to see it, times, places, the works. It will prove invaluable later.

Otherwise, just provide a safe, secure environment that DSC know they can retreat to. It will mean the world.