letter to an alienating mother

[itstillhurts]

A message
Talking badly about your ex-p to your children is wrong and that includes talking about money because you are NOT objective at all about it. You are not just "telling the children the truth" you are actually telling them your truth and if your truth is that you hate your ex-p for various reasons and that in your mind you are being treated badly what you are actually doing is being toxic and poisonous and alienating your children from their other parent. You are making them feel that they have to align with you and that there are strings attached on your love - ie, that they "take your side". Its as if you are saying "yes I know you love [other parent} and of course I think that is great but I really think you should know x, y and z about them before you proceed any further". In my view you are a CRAP parent for doing this. I never thought you were crap in any other way but right now the way I am feeling I have decided that this fact alone makes you CRAP. I have a child of my own and I swear on her life I will NEVER come between her and her father - of course it would be easy for me to fill her head with any adult issues that I might have and misuse my position of power but that would be WRONG and NOTHING changes the fact that it would be WRONG.

FWIW you don't actually hurt your ex-P any more. He has already had the worst hurt any parent could have, he had it years ago when this first started happening and he first realised that his child (a Daddy's boy through and through) wasn't allowed to love both his parents and had a made a choice that you were the one he needed to please. He went through the range of emotions: hurt, confusion, shock , anger, grief and now a kind of resignation and apathy. For the last 5 years he has stood there and taken it, taken the nasty words the accusations of things done to Mummy that were not even true (unable to argue as that would be calling you a liar and why stoop to your level), he has had the tears and tantrums, had the phone put down, heard the stories of what his son says about him to other people (funnily enough all the "bad" things are related to you and money!!) but he has never flinched, never shed a tear in front of his son, never faltered, never responded in kind. His son always knows that his Dad is there for him and funnily enough his Dad is still the person he tends to call in a REAL crisis despite everything. That is because he is a PROPER parent, proper because his love is not conditional on his child jumping hoops for him. Your actions have been WRONG and MISGUIDED and most of all have been UNFAIR on your son and caused him huge angst & sorrow but I don't hope that your son ever realises in future what you have done to him because I actually care about him and. neither his father or me would ever see anything good in him rejecting you.

All the alienated parent can ever do is hope that one day the child realises that there were never any strings attached to their love but if this never happens then so be it. Your ex-p never really stood a chance with his son it doesn't matter what he actually does as you are always there to ruin it with your poison and your guilt trips. The fact that a child who adored his Daddy now professes to hate him (well that goes up and down depending on how angry you are with your ex-P that week) is actually NOTHING to do with his relationship with his father (and any normal ups and downs between a teen and their parent) but is 100% to do with his relationship with you and his constant need to prove his love for you. You really can't see that can you.

And isn't it funny that your other child just refuses to play ball and still loves his father deeply. No doubt he misses out on a lot of the special "hate [x]" bond that you and your other son have but I personally have such admiration for his strength of character and his innate understanding that he loves both parents equally and doesn't need to makes a choice. Of course he gets upset at hearing his Dad slagged all the time at home and has confided as much (and yes I find it funny that you are so disrespectful to his feelings) but I told him years ago not to worry about it, I said that we are not bothered by it and that it is not his Mummy's fault it was just an adult thing and told him not to let it hurt him & just let it wash over him - that was actually a lie - of course it does bother us. But we put our own feelings aside for his sake - believe it or not this is a common theme in good parenting. Maybe that's something you could have considered doing yourself….??

Getting this out helps me feel better - I can't say these words to anyone in real life and I love my step children very much and just find it all so SAD even after all these years.

well I read a lot of "bile" on this board (though never partaken until now) and have also read "bile" on the lone parents board so it seems I am not the only one who occasionally gets angry. But no doubt there is a prevailing feeling that what is written on the LP board is "true" therefore it doesn't constitute "bile". But I don't buy into the argument that mothers are never capable of doing anything wrong simply by virtue of their gender and never have.
I never ever criticise this woman's parenting in any other way and never have, her children love her very much just as they should and I have always accepted that there are 2 sides to every story much more than you will ever know.

But IMO son this issue she has acted in poor judgment and her actions have had very negative effects which we feel regularly and which affect the entire family, I wrote the post when I was feeling shocked and angry.
I don't really think she is a crap parent anymore than any of us are but it was a rant.
I can't be bothered to spell out the last 9 years or so to you but suffice to say that everybody should be moving on and to hear that this is still going on is upsetting. We are far down the road of step parenting/shared parenting, most people could only hope to have a set up that works as successfully as ours to just write me off as somebody who is slagging off another mother is wrong because that is not what this is about.

What would you do if you were being constantly slagged by your ex and his partner to your children even after 9 years. Would you not feel aggrieved and want to let out some steam?

As I said I have calmed down and stopped being angry again, I have gone back to resignation that it can't be controlled and understanding that, this is probably just down to human nature and she dos not understand that she has done anything wrong.

Hmmmmmmmmm This is exactly the reason why I stopped posting on this site because of all the bitching and bickering that goes on.

i think the reason I changed my name for this as well as not wanting to talk in detail about my family in case people know me in RL is because I knew if I wanted to be angry on MN about anyhting done by this other woman I had to do it anonymously or risk being off everyone's xmas card lists forever. I knew I was feeling angry and had to let it out somewhere so I changed my name and did it here before I imploded with it.

My usual response to this scenario (and advise to others should I ever give it) would be to just say "oh well never mind, it doesn't matter, it is normal in these situations and human nature, just ignore it" because that is the healthiest way to deal with it for everybody (something I am extremely aware of).

My post has been attacked but less by saying why what I have said is so wrong other than to comment that the angry vicious way in which I expressed it was wrong (which I admit it was and based on heat of the moment anger and designed entirely to get the anger out anonymously so that I don't do it in RL).

But I would have liked to have had comment on the substance of what i wrote (which i admit is hard to see in between the lines of my intitial emotive post and use of words like "crap parent") ie, whether people could see how frustrating this is esp. in light of fact that it is often touted as "abusive" towards children when a non resident parent slags off a primary carer to the children. I probably could have foreseen that my angry post would cause upset but as I did it in the heat of the moment I didn't really think it through so sorry all I am kind of wishing that I had dealt just with the facts rather than the temporary emotions the facts instilled in me as then I would have had more constructive replies from all sides of the fence but thanks to all who replied anyway.

I can put my finger on exactly what I found difficult about your post. No matter how much I wanted to let off steam I wouldn't swear anything on my child's life. And that's not because I'm superstitious or believe in oaths. Just that her life is not mine to swear on. Anyway if something is true you don't need to swear it. Just say it.

HTH

FWIW itstillhurts, I thought you put across your feelings - and your reasons for putting them down on "paper" very eloquently, and, despite your anger and frustration, you have always tried to be fair to your dh's ex.

I think you should give yourself a pat on the head! :)

point taken. Think I will crawl back to my hole now.

I totally second what prettybird says, I was beginning to think that I was the only person with a positive opinion on this post.

hear hear - nothing wrong with venting to friends RL or virtual. I have listened to a close friend who was treated like shit by her XDH rant for England about his unreasonable behaviour then gather her wits about her and be as nice as pie about him to her DS. I never thought she was spouting bile just understandably cross.

My father left my mum when we were all adults and behaved abominably and it still hurts me to hear my mum talk about my dad so vitriolically. I wish she had other friends to bitch about him rather than doing it to me, even though I know he deserves it.

Perhaps I should point her in the direction of MN?

Great idea Suejonez, I do believe a forum is somewhere where you can talk and get advice and opinions by likeminded people, but unfortunately some people take "personal" offence at other people's rants and make it miserable for all!

As I seem to have upset everyone, thought I'd try and address some of the points that ISH has made in her post to me.

Regarding the money being stretched tighter when a family splits. Mine most certainly is but exp's hasn't. When we were still together he paid about £350 into my account every month, I now get £300 maintenance and giving birth to ds2 didn't make him reach into his pocket for a bit more.

It was my decision to leave xp and doing that made me homeless with 3 children, he absolutely refused to let me stay in the house. I am now in LA housing in a grotty area and he is chucking money at our old home like it is going out of fashion. He has a new conservatory, new kitchen and is just starting work on his living room. He is most definitely not feeling the pinch, he is laughing all the way to the bank.

He has a very clever accountant and has managed to pay himself a huge sum of money which he doesn't have to pay tax on, therefore the CSA calculation is totally inaccurate.

Of course, these are the actions of a caring father and he should be applauded for them.

With regard to the shared parenting, there is no way that he would ever take on 4 kids on his own, that would mean he would have to take time away from his business and that will never happen.

My children see more of their father now than when we were together, because at the time he just couldn't be bothered. He admits that his hand was forced and that if i hadn't left, he would probably still spend all his time at work.

With regards to me getting a job and becoming self sufficient, it's just not possible at the moment. I have 4 children, aged 8 and under and there is no way I could afford childcare for all of them. Exp wouldn't help.

So sorry but not all ex's are like your husband I'm afraid. I try not to slag my exp off in front of my children but sometimes I know they are probably earwigging. Am I really expected to spend the rest of my life bigging up a man who was a completely useless partner and is only just realising what being a father is.

I also want to make sure that none of my children end up in a situation like I did, i will tell my daughters not to have children before they are married and if they want to know why, I will tell them.

It seems to me that a lot of the step parents on here, have this smug belief that they are better than the natural mother. It's the smugness that is pissing me off.

Also F&NJ if I'm making it miserable for you on here, sorry but tough!

FANC - great to see you back. I completely share your and Prettybird's sentiments.

Itstillhurts - I can completely understand your "rant" and could have written bits of it myself. Sometimes when you are continually faced with unreasonableness, you just need to get it out of your system. And I think writing a letter and then never sending it is a great idea. Sounds like you and your partner have really been through the mill. Take care.

Rickman - you are right tobe upset about your situation - and you have (rightly) got a lot of support from people when you have come on here to rant.

However, I don't think it is fair for you to take out your frustration with your ex-p on itstillhurts.

Like you, she was venting - and she stated that clearly in her first and subesequent posts. From the sound of it, your situation and her situation are not comparable - yet you get annoyed that she should express frustration - even though she was deliberately trying to do it in a "safe" place where no-one could get hurt.

It's not fair to generalise about "a lot of step parents" being smug - when that is not what itsillhurts was trying to imply. We all need a safety valve sometimes - I think how she used Mumsent is commendable and I hope if I am ever in a similar sitation (not that I expect to be) that I could have a similar attitude and approach.

I can totally understand wanting to rant here, surely better this than blowing your top in RL. Perhaps ISH's does sound smug and the 'better parent' but TBH it is her rant, let her have it. Both BM and SM can be great, bad or indifferent, as can BD, SD or whatever. Everyone situation is different. I can understand why you are cross rickman, but this rant was never aimed at you, it was a scream of frustration a aggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! when things were tough. Disecting every word, trying to find nuances of a post that was obviously written quickly and in frustration is downright mean. She was just getting it off her chest, just as you do in the opposite situation.

I'm not taking out my frustration on her. She wanted to know why I found her post slightly irritating and now I've told her. I've had some comments I have made critised in the past and that is fair enough.

I didn't realise that only step parents who agree were allowed to post on this thread. Don't worry I will shuffle off back to lone parents and not darken your door again.

Also I apologise if I have reached the mumsnet support threshold, I will await the email from mumsnet hq telling me that I can't post anymore.

I have also said that her husband sounds nothing like my ex.

Bloody hell, I never disected every word of her post. For start they are too bloody long. ISH asked me for my opinion and I have given it.

BTW - I'm not a step parent! I had just read the thread out of interest and had been impressed by itstillhurts restraint.

But you are right Rickman, itstillhurts did ask why her post had upset you and all you have doen is answer.

And FWIW - your exh does sound like a tosser!

I'm a stepparent ..... and was also a single mum for 9 years, with a useless, very high-earning (but conveniently self employed) ex, so feel reasonably qualified to see both sides of the story.

I have however, always tried NOt to slag off my son's dad to him. As he's got older - not that I would want or wish it for him - he HAS realised stuff for himself about his dad, though there's still a lot he doesn't know. My reason for holding back is that I never wanted my son to feel badly about HIMSELF - irrespective of how much bastard ex deserved a slagging off 101%. Have just always felt that kids - not surprisingly - often identify with their parents, and I never wanted my son to feel "my dad's crap, therefore I must be too", nor to wonder why he "deserved" to be treated badly by his dad. Therefore, though HE didn't deserve my "co-operation" in covering up his crapness, my son certainly did.

Now he's 16, I find that actually, if anything, my son's dad's attitude has improved quite remarkably over the last few years .... no doubt because as my son got more savvy, he himself has been challengting his dad more. That doesn't and never will excuse much of wankface's behaviour but I am PLEASED that our son is a well adjusted lad who sees BOTH his parents and has never been placed in a position to take sides. Oh - and BTW, we ended up in nasty ex council flat for some years 'cos it was all I could afford while ex lived in brand new 4 bed. Ho hum.

On the other hand ..........

Itstillhurts - I empathise with you utterly and totally. My now DP has the ex from hell, who, despite mutually separating, remains hellbent, 7 years on, on blaming DP for her every woe. Her lifetsyle and that of the skids is much much better than ours, yet we are the absolute pits 'cos DP doesn't give her "enough" (though he does, always has done, and has been taken for a ride on many occasions with various fictitious emergencies and so on). The bloody D.I.V.O.R.C.E remains a perpetual topic in her household so the skids have little chance of coming to terms with the fact their parents are split even after all this time. She has told lie after lie about DP and has recently "succeeded" in alienating the oldest child from DP which is crucifying for him. Everything DP says or does is twisted to "prove" he is the bad guy. We thought the bitterness (about what I'm not sure) would fizzle out eventually but she's getting worse, not better. We have written evidence of her support for oldest child's appalling behaviour (long long story), simply because it upsets DP and therefore must be acceptable.

I could go on and on and on .... write a book.

I too have thought of writing on many occasions but you can't reason with someone who is determined to be unreasonable and I think it's absolutely disgusting that those kids' minds are being messed with by someone who is all out for some sort of twisted "revenge".

I hope that venting on her has helped you and feel - just like anyone else - you're perfectly entitled to do so. Nowhere in your post did you say that all 1st wives are bitches, and all ex-H's are wonderful. Some are, some aren't. You were simply describing your situation, and I totally understand where you're coming from.

CM - "crucifying" is the right word. It is a hideous thing to have your child turned against you and not be able to stop it and until you witness it happening to somebody you love it is hard to really understand quite how much pain is involved for both parent AND child.

Rickman I have said I don't mind being criticised esp under cover of a false name. TBH I don't think anything you said was particularly offensive. Sure I have had most of what I have said now picked apart (not just by you!) from swearing on my child's life (sorry sweetie!!) to "spouting bile about another woman" to my posts being too long (won't argue with that!) to me just being bloody annoying but I honestly don't mind one bit. it is silly to say that only step parents who agree can post here, there are always single parents posting on this board and I don't think there are many complaints from anyone about that. Many more lone parents post here than step parents post on the lone parents board from what I can see and that is fine with me as I like seeing the other side so don't see why you should shuffle back to LP. I wouldn't call this a major kerfuffle by any stretch.

If anything I definitely think tat GENERALLY lone female parents get a lot more sympathy on MN than a non resident father does but personally I don't see it as a choosing one side or the other kind of thing. IMO each case and each parent needs to be looked and judged on their/its merits regardless of their gender.

I don't know what sort of financial situation my DSK's mum is actually in. She would cry poverty I would notice the fact that she has a lot more holidays than we ever do. The reality is that I will never know and it is wholly subjective anyway. Nor does she have a clue about our financial situation but of course (and this is where I see the BIG problem in talking about this sort of thing to kids) she THINKS she knows ALL about us. Even told CSA (and the kids!) that DH was earning 800 a week when he was earning closer to 200. I find this part of it frustrating. I actually hate people talking about how the other parent has a "big house" etc etc and they don't. More like a big mortgage - and so? Everybody needs a roof over their head, without kids and with a job you won't get council housing you can choose either to rent and pay a lot or buy and pay a lot. We have had this used against us as well. We have a mortgage and had to spend lots doing up the dump that we could afford to be liveable for all the kids. She is in the same LA house that they all used to live in which is exactly same size as ours and better location. Apparently that is yet another reason to hate us. No doubt we should all be living on the street so that we can pay her more and she can "afford" to leave her nice LA house and be mortgaged up to the eyeballs in a dump too!! But seriously I just hate that assumption that just because somebody has kids which they no longer live with FT (not through their choice!) they are not entitled to have a life outside of handing over all their cash to their ex and seeing the kids but ONLY when your ex wants you to/it suits her (and heaven forbid you ask for more contact than that!!)

Thanks to all who replied I am MUCH calmer today.

Rickman everyone has an opinion and you are quite entitled to give yours. Unfortunately you seem to be very blunt and to the point and I think that is why it is not what you say some times that narks people but how you say it. When I said about some peoples opinions making other people miserable, it was not aimed at you personally it was my general opinion of this site but you took it personally and aimed it back at me! Your exp does sound like a total tosser and you have my sympathies but you have to understand that not all fathers are like your exp just like not all bio mothers are like you. It would be a boring old world if everyone was the same wouldnt it?

I can totally sympathise with you about your ex and what you have gone through, but that is not a reason to have no sympathy for people on the other end of the scale! I dont think that ISH has any more right to be slagged of for her rant than you have to be slagged off for yours. You can have an opinion but dont make it personal against someone who is in my opinion a victim as you are, or as a lot of us are allbeit in completely different circumstances.

I have to say that I do however, take personal offence at your comment about "step mums having a smug belief that they are better than the natural mother". I have never read one report on here of a step mum saying they are better than a natural mum. We all do our very best and just wish that we could have a bit of respect and appreciation for what we do do. However, no doubt there are a minority that are not the best of step mums. I treat my step children as though they are my own and do everything in my power to make them happy, however, our BM treats me like crap even though her and DP split up 8 years ago and I only got with him 4 years ago. To be honest unless you are a step parent yourself I dont believe anyone can understand how hard it is to be a step mum. Granted there are no doubt some step mums that are total idiots too, but again there is too much "tarring with the same brush" on this site! You are a BM and I would never slag you off however much of a problem that I have with our BM because they are not all the same and I am sure you are a great BM unlike a very small minority. So why do all step mums have to be slagged off just because some might be a nightmare? I guess what I am trying to say is, please do not judge everyone on here as being the same as your past experiences.

Anyway rant over, itstillhurts, I hope things get better for you and rickman I do wish you all the best and hope that things get better for you too. Hello Looptheloop, good to see you again

FWIW

I find it hard sometimes on MN

I consider myself LoneParent BUT like to read Stepparenting to help me come to terms with my situation

what you have to realise is that whenever any of us post, we cant help but look at it from our POV

e.g my husand has left me after months of treating me like sh@t and accusing me of being paranoid when accusing him of having an affair, zero tolerance of my PND, left in Nov shacked up immediately with his mistress, gives me plenty of money, has no concern for mental welfare of our children.

I find this very hard to deal with and I guess when we hear from a step mum, it is hard not to make it personal ro think "oh my god i hope people never think that about me/my kids"

Fruit&Nut
ItStillHurts
Rickman

you are all entitled to post on MN
all your posts are valid

Great posts Mistress M and FANC.

MistressM - I've seen your earlier posts and from the way your ex has behaved, I find it amazing that you remain so balanced and fair. Blimey he's an idiot! My DH's parents divorced when he was a kid. Lots of affairs and poor behaviour on his Dad's sides, including crashing his business so he never paid a penny in CM for 4 kids. Despite all of this DH's Mum has never criticised him to the kids - I know I couldn't have been so restrained if I were her. Sorry for the long story, but the point is that although the kids all have OKish relationships with their Dad (well on a good day it's OKish....), they all ABSOLUTELY ADORE their mother and would do anything for her. And they all really admire her and are grateful for her restraint, despite feeling that their Dad did not deserve this. Mind you, she did once admit to me that she had almost bit her tongue black and blue at times!

I wasn't going to come back to this thread but I just wanted to say that my dreaded fear, is that exp's new girlfriend will be on here one day, posting about my kids. She will probably have a hideously low opinion of me, because I can't imagine for one minute that exp has told her the truth of our situation. The thought of it makes me feel sick to be honest.

I'm sorry if I come across as being very negative about step mothers, but that's the way I feel at the moment. Unfortunately there are lots of threads on here that make me shudder when I think, my kids might be on the receiving end one day.

Now I really am disappearing back to lone parents.

Rickman - please don't disappear. Hopefully your ex will get a new partner much better than himself - after all, he was with you to start with so his taste in women can't be all bad - hopeful emoticon..... Take care.

"Unfortunately there are lots of threads on here that make me shudder when I think, my kids might be on the receiving end one day."

Agreed. But not on his particular thread. Never have I mentioned anything other than love for my stepchildren. Try to rememeber that a lot of of step parents also have children and believe it or not concern for the children is not exclusively a LP trait.

Rickman and MM FWIW I pay little heed to anything I have heard about DH's XP during the relationship. Obviously it is going to be biased just as her opinion is too.
We got on quite well in fact at first. My opinion of her has been affected by what I have seen and heard over the years but in any event last week was just a flash point normally
i would never judge her parenting and it was probably wrong. I know for a fact that her DP has inherited a very low opinion of my DH from her but can't see how that is different degree of hideousness to step mum feeling negative towards BM from time to time? No doubt yet another double standard!!!! I am used to those!!!!

One thing I have huge amount of sympathy for is how awful it must feel for any parent to know that their children are playing "happy families" with another woman/man and not be able to do antyhing about it. It must be awful at first before you get used to it I know how hard it was for my DH. But to say that you "shudder for the children" on a thread where the Step parent clealry has a good relationship with the kids is kind of twisitng that around - nnot awful for the children, awful for the parent and understandably so. But hopefully in time everyone will get used to it (and BTW I detest step parents who overstep their mark and try to "parent" children who already have close realtiohships with both parents as that is unfiar to the parents and the child).

Anyway my DSS is here now and is being just fine with us so things seem to have returned to calm. FWIW neither DH nor myself ever mentioned to DSS what we knew he had been telling people about his Dad and what his Mum had tell him and nor will we ever do this. We will act like we don't know - its called exercising self control for the sake of a child's welfare something that I think all of us should strive to do (and not saying I am perfect here just saying that I think we should all make an effort whether we feel hurt or villified or not).