letter to an alienating mother

[itstillhurts]

A message
Talking badly about your ex-p to your children is wrong and that includes talking about money because you are NOT objective at all about it. You are not just "telling the children the truth" you are actually telling them your truth and if your truth is that you hate your ex-p for various reasons and that in your mind you are being treated badly what you are actually doing is being toxic and poisonous and alienating your children from their other parent. You are making them feel that they have to align with you and that there are strings attached on your love - ie, that they "take your side". Its as if you are saying "yes I know you love [other parent} and of course I think that is great but I really think you should know x, y and z about them before you proceed any further". In my view you are a CRAP parent for doing this. I never thought you were crap in any other way but right now the way I am feeling I have decided that this fact alone makes you CRAP. I have a child of my own and I swear on her life I will NEVER come between her and her father - of course it would be easy for me to fill her head with any adult issues that I might have and misuse my position of power but that would be WRONG and NOTHING changes the fact that it would be WRONG.

FWIW you don't actually hurt your ex-P any more. He has already had the worst hurt any parent could have, he had it years ago when this first started happening and he first realised that his child (a Daddy's boy through and through) wasn't allowed to love both his parents and had a made a choice that you were the one he needed to please. He went through the range of emotions: hurt, confusion, shock , anger, grief and now a kind of resignation and apathy. For the last 5 years he has stood there and taken it, taken the nasty words the accusations of things done to Mummy that were not even true (unable to argue as that would be calling you a liar and why stoop to your level), he has had the tears and tantrums, had the phone put down, heard the stories of what his son says about him to other people (funnily enough all the "bad" things are related to you and money!!) but he has never flinched, never shed a tear in front of his son, never faltered, never responded in kind. His son always knows that his Dad is there for him and funnily enough his Dad is still the person he tends to call in a REAL crisis despite everything. That is because he is a PROPER parent, proper because his love is not conditional on his child jumping hoops for him. Your actions have been WRONG and MISGUIDED and most of all have been UNFAIR on your son and caused him huge angst & sorrow but I don't hope that your son ever realises in future what you have done to him because I actually care about him and. neither his father or me would ever see anything good in him rejecting you.

All the alienated parent can ever do is hope that one day the child realises that there were never any strings attached to their love but if this never happens then so be it. Your ex-p never really stood a chance with his son it doesn't matter what he actually does as you are always there to ruin it with your poison and your guilt trips. The fact that a child who adored his Daddy now professes to hate him (well that goes up and down depending on how angry you are with your ex-P that week) is actually NOTHING to do with his relationship with his father (and any normal ups and downs between a teen and their parent) but is 100% to do with his relationship with you and his constant need to prove his love for you. You really can't see that can you.

And isn't it funny that your other child just refuses to play ball and still loves his father deeply. No doubt he misses out on a lot of the special "hate [x]" bond that you and your other son have but I personally have such admiration for his strength of character and his innate understanding that he loves both parents equally and doesn't need to makes a choice. Of course he gets upset at hearing his Dad slagged all the time at home and has confided as much (and yes I find it funny that you are so disrespectful to his feelings) but I told him years ago not to worry about it, I said that we are not bothered by it and that it is not his Mummy's fault it was just an adult thing and told him not to let it hurt him & just let it wash over him - that was actually a lie - of course it does bother us. But we put our own feelings aside for his sake - believe it or not this is a common theme in good parenting. Maybe that's something you could have considered doing yourself….??

Getting this out helps me feel better - I can't say these words to anyone in real life and I love my step children very much and just find it all so SAD even after all these years.

I dont read any Step parenting threads and feel dread.

I read them to try to get the other side so I can make the transition easier for my children when the day comes

I just struggle with the fact that the woman who helped break up my family is now going to be part of my family
THATS what I struggle with

Sorry ISH, my comments weren't aimed at you, I was just talking generally. You sound like a lovely step mother.

I think it is the fact that someone else will be playing happy families with my kids, I never got to do the happy family thing with exp, he just wasn't interested. So it does stick in my throat a bit when I think of someone else filling my role, especially when one of my children is still a baby.

absolutely understand how you feel Rickman - my ex didnt help or play much with kids but will soon be doing it with HER

oh well - go back to Lone Parents - good thread there about our situation with some good advice

Rickman, no-one will ever be able to take your place as your childrens' mum. I get accused of that by dsd's mum and she just won't listen to me when I've tried to reassure her that I don't want to be "mum" to dsd. My relationship with dsd is different to the one with my own daughter. I'm not sure I can put into words how, but it just is - there's that unconditional love with dd, both ways, but with dsd, I love her, but it's had to be worked at.

I know that I will never do the right thing in dsd's mum's eyes. For example, if I buy things for dsd I'm trying to buy her, if I don't, then I'm not treating dsd the same as dd. I can't win, in fact on the rare occasions when BM's spoken to me she's told me not to bother trying to do the right thing as I never will! (And I'm another who came along after she ended the relationship with dh to be with someone else, so it's not as if I split them up).

But despite her saying that, of course I want to do the right thing by dsd and like you MM, I read all the threads on LP's, to try to understand things better and make sure that I do my best. It's like having all the conversations I've wanted to have with BM but never could (because she won't speak to me)! I do find it really confusing though. And this isn't aimed at anyone in particular BTW! We're in danger of overstepping the mark in the BM's eyes and being accused trying to take their place, on the other hand if we find anything about having step-children staying or living with us difficult, and say so, then we get jumped on for that too.

I guess at the end of the day its cos we all care so much that it hurts or is frustrating

as BMs we are scared of being "replaced", jealous of "new family" (if like me the divorce wasnt your choice) and exhausted while ex seems to be swanning around playing part time dad and treating kids all the time

as Step mums, you want to be loving & loved, but cant win as either trying too hard or not enough

Rickman, ISH, MM and Surfermum, you have all made some wonderful points in your last posts. I think we can clearly agree that it is difficult for all parties involved in these situations. MM I have followed your posts and I know what a terrible time you have been through of late. I can understand your worry when your children's potential "stepmum" caused the break up of your relationship. I too would feel the same and would be anxious and apprehensive about my children spending time with her (and him for that matter after what he has done).

I can 100% relate to what Surfermum has said about her situation and I too (and DP for that matter) can do no right at all. I have totally changed my life and future plans to make my stepchildren happy as in my opinion they are the innocent parties and need to be put first. I have put off having a very much wanted child of my own as our BM has told us that she will not let the children see us if DP and I have one of our own! Why? I have no idea! I can understand that it must feel like a threat and she has apparently told the children that daddy wont love them anymore if he has a baby with me as he will have all the love for the new child and not for them! That to me is spiteful and totally untrue and unnecessary. However, we have decided not to take a chance in order to prove to the children that we are 100% commited to them. If when they are older I am still able to conceive then we will consider it again, but I am prepared to put my feelings and wishes aside to try to make life as good (or as good as it can be for children with seperated parents) as possible for them.

"I never got to do the happy family thing with exp, he just wasn't interested. So it does stick in my throat a bit when I think of someone else filling my role, especially when one of my children is still a baby."

I can SOOOO understand this. The thought of even being apart from my baby for a night (which I have to do in 2 weeks) let a lone for a weekend would fill me with dread without even adding another woman into the mixture! But the thing about your exp not being interested that speaks volumes - I doubt he will actually ever really be playing "happy families" with anybody if that is what he is actually like even though he might try to lead you to believe it. Although then again people do grow up and change and I do have friends whose ex-partners have done just this and actually become better parents after the split (and maybe the fact that they suddenly have to have contact and care for the kids one on one suddenly helps with this for those fathers who never played much of a role in caring for the kids before the split) . But I do think it probably does get easier over time and I know that most people a few years down the line actually appreciate the time that the children are with the other parent. Totally agree with Surfermum that NOBODY will ever take your place. My DH found it extremely difficult when his exp's current partner came along but he is fine now as he has realised that he will always be their Dad.
I am sure before too long you (and MM) will both meet new partners and (hopefully) will be playing a bit of happy families yourselves!! Even if it doesn't feel like this will ever happen now, it will happen eventually most people I know who separate go on to form even better relationships later. In my DH's case both him and his exp are now really happy in their respective new relationships and both of them have new young children - something neither of them probably ever foresaw in the initial years following the split.
I have totally calmed down now about the exp and regret posting what I did. DSS is fine - ok, he is always "waiting for Dad to do something wrong" so he can pounce on it (and no doubt tell Mum about it when he goes home) but so what, who cares really? Its no biggie. I overreacted last week. DH has just told his exp about the lump of money he is going to give her when it comes through - no response from her but that’s fine, what will be interesting is to see whether she tells the kids. Historically she has always told them she gets nothing no matter what we pay her but again, who cares. Not me in this mood today.
I wish all of you the best xxx

rickam & mm - I think you should stay off step parenting I keep having a sly look and having to tear myself away before posting.......

I agree. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is free to post wherever they like on mumsnet. And you're more than welcome to post on step-parenting threads HappyMumof2 (and Rickman and MM) . We're all in the same boat really, just trying to make the best of difficult situations and figure out difficult feelings.

I do sometimes feel though that we can't make any negative comments about our step-children or our situations because we'll get jumped on, whereas the same comment on another thread about a natural child wouldn't get the same comments, but would get a shed load of empathy. Maybe I'm just over-sensitive, I don't know.

I never read posts about step children and think anything negative

I always have & still will post on step parenting

I dont believe that step mums are jumped on over single mums especially as you lot havent broken up a marriage.

for me personally I know hand on heart that my only issue is because the step mum is the woman who helped split up my family

I know that I would be more accepting of a woman ex got together with AFTER we'd split

the only thing I will never agree with is that people are "better fathers" once they are no longer around permantly - how easy it is to be loving & present giving once a fortnight...
you ask my son in a few years time if he'd rather have daddy at home permanently but lying in bed at weekends or once a fortnight dad. I dont believe he would choose the latter.

This has been an interesting thread.

I have a question: one of the biggest problems is if a father has actually done something wrong (as in Mrs M's case) and children ask about it, should you lie to them, be evasive, hide the evidence?

I ask because I have a friend who was divorced 20 years ago and she drummed it into her kids' heads that what daddy did was wrong, abandoning them with no money and never coming to see them. Her argument has always been, "if I hadn't told them, how would they know it was wrong? They were surrounded by a wishy washy philosophy of people "moving on", which took no notice of the real financial and ethical questions of discharging your responsibilities etc. If I'd gone along with that, they'd think it was alright to dump their own children - and I don't want my son to do that to my grandchildren."

I sort of agree with her, but also thought at the time (and still do) that it was not good for the children's image of themselves to know that their father had abandoned them so completely. I don't think it did much for their self-esteem and wonder where the balance is between ensuring that if someone behaves badly you don't condone it, without it affecting a child's sense of self. Any views?

for me, I have not said anything negative about their father

however, DS is clearly confused thus the "tell daddy to make his mind up whether he wants to stay in his new house or come home"
I have been very clear that daddy "no longer loves mummy which is why he doesnt live here, but still loves you"

my DS thinks daddy lives alone - all of this shows that my ex is burying his head & cant say to his own son "i dont love mummy - I love someone else & shes really nice"

4yr olds dont lie, or hide things so Ex clearly hasnt the balls to tell him

I do believe that affairs are wrong and would encourage my children NOT to do this - if something is wrong, try to fix it first & then leave and THEN get someone new

I will NEVER bad mouth my ex cos he is my childrens' father and this is causing me a lot of anguish cos family & friends cant understand why I STILL defend him

MM I totally agree with you and you should be commended for how you have dealt with things. You have been through one of the most traumatic things a woman can go through and you still manage to keep a level head and have a totally rational opinion of the situation. I only wish that all biological mothers were like you. If they were then there probably wouldnt be as many posts on the step parenting thread. You have shown that your one priority is your children and that is exactly how it should be. You do not bad mouth your ex in front of the children, which unfortunately a lot of BMs do. I only wish the small minority would take a leaf out of your book. You are a wonderful mother and in my honest opinion, your ex will one day wake up and realise what an absolute dick he has been!

But the question of how you impress on your children that something their father has done is wrong (if it is) - how is that to be dealt with without badmouthing?

This isn't just a theoretical question, it's a practical one for many parents, not just those who have split because one partner was unreasonable, but also in other cases such as when a parent has gone to prison for crime, etc.

Well said Anniemac all ex partners are bound to be biased. Children love their mums and dads no matter what and to tell them bad things about either parent (whether true or not) will only upset the children and ultimately (in my honest opinion)make them think less of the parent doing the bad mouthing! It may make the parent feel better, but does nothing for the children who, as I have said many times before, are the innocent parties in these situations. I think there are better ways of doing it, if (to answer Caligula's question) a child needs to be told of a situation then there are better ways of doing it. i.e. "Mummy and Daddy dont love each other anymore but that doesn't mean they love you any less" is much easier for a child to understand and less heartbreaking than "Daddy would rather be with than with us" or "Daddy has too much love for *** now and not enough love for you" (the latter being what our BM has used on several occasions).

Well everyone always says that Anniemac about the children working it out for themselves when they're grown up, and I think we all hope that's true in the case of things like maintenance etc.

However, it's obviously not true if you look at things like domestic violence and the likelihood of children of divorced parents to get divorced themselves. It's widely recognised that family patterning, whether postive or negative, repeats itself generation after generation if the cycle isn't broken. Children of happy marriages tend to learn the habit of happiness and how to have a good marriage, and go on to marry other children of happy marriages and make good happy marriages themselves. While those of divorced couples, have a much higher likelihood of divorcing themselves. And my question is, how do you break a bad relationship cycle without damaging your children's sense of self or without making the reasons for your break up a big mystery?

It's a situation I haven't had to face yet because my children are very young, but I don't want either of them to continue the behaviour patterns my ex and I had. All I can do is make them aware of the patterns and the fact that without being aware and taking steps to avoid them, they are very likely to repeat them, but how I do that in language they will be able to understand and which doesn't imply their father is "a bad man" is quite beyond me. I'm beginning to understand why people in the past simply refused to talk about it, because it's a minefield. But that of course, has its own frustrations for children, who want and need to know their family history.

IMO it's no good saying that we can wait until they grow up because by that time the psychological hardwiring as it were, is already there and it's much harder to unwire it than to stop it being wired up that way in the first place (apologies for the computer analogy!)

True. I'm just anticipating those awful cringe-making intrusive teenage questions!

ITstillhurts - I am bm and ds has contac twith ex-p, his girlfriend and her kids. THere are times when exp is so bloody frustrating and thoughtless in relation to ds that i could really rant but i dont infront of ds. I understand your post re bad mouthing other parent infront of kids. IT doenst mean you have to say how wonderful absent parent is either. I am supportive of exp rel with my ds and because i know that kids look to their birth parents for identity and have a sense of fatalism as they grow up that they will be like them, i want ds to feel positive about himself.

Anyway enough rambling, i wanted to say if it helped to vent on here then i think mn served its purpose once again. I think it is sad that people can take so personally something that wasnt meant for them.

Just a few words I want to add. I haven't read through the whole thread but mainly wanted to respond to rickman in regard to her feeling that stepmothers are smug and consider themselves better than BM's.

Rickman I've been a stepmother for a LONG time, my 2 stepsons are now adults but have known them since they were very young children. I worked a long time to help support them and I know & understand many of the difficult issues that stepfamilies go through. But I just want to let you know how I feel about their mother. In the beginning it was obviously difficult as she was still carrying some hurt about the marriage and it took us a long while to feel comfortable & accept each other. But I wanted to let you know this:

I never ever bad-mouthed her or made comments about her in front of her sons. EVER. She was their MOTHER. I listened on occasion when they complained about her (not often) but did not pass judgment or comment. She was a decent person and I always respected the position she was in, and how difficult it must have been for her at times. I stood up for her once when dh wasn't paying her enough money, and I got annoyed with him if I knew he wasn't paying her on time. I always respected the fact that she was their mum. I also liked her and appreciated the fact that she took an interest in my son when he was born, and that she took the time to phone me to see how things were going when I was expecting. We even discussed a problem I was having in my relationship at the time and she was supportive towards me. She sent a gift for my baby when he was born, and a year or so later, she spent Christmas with us. I liked the fact that she eventually became a friend to me and that my husband and I could socialise with her and her family, and that we all felt comfortable together. She is now gone, she passed away suddenly a few short years ago and I miss her, I think about her a lot and I know how much it has affected her whole family. I am actually sad that she won't be around to see my son grow up, as she loved children and I know she would've liked to be a part of his life, however small. It actually makes me very very sad.

I realise that antagonism and annoyance and resentment are commonplace among ex-partners and step-families but I just wanted to share my experience with you from a different perspective. BTW, I can also fully understand how hurtful it would be, the idea of your own kids spending time with an ex-husband and his new girlfriend - I have always hoped and prayed that I will never find myself in this same situation, as I don't think I would cope with it very well. I hope my dh, ds and myself will always be together as a family unit and that we'll be able to avoid experiencing that kind of hurt. Anyway - I just wanted to let you know that it is possible for stepmothers and BM's to mutually respect and like each other, despite the situation they are in.