Is it just me? Appropriate response to DSS behaviour...?

[brdgrl]

Last Thursday and Friday (as in, over a week ago) we had two separate rows with DSS, who is 14.

It started over his exam revision (wouldn't do any; lied about not having materials to revise which we then found in his room along with notes from school about missed homeworks, etc). On Thursday, DH, with me present, confronted him about these things, and told him he was to spend the weekend revising for the exams he had left (he had already done some and had eight more to go), and that he was not to watch tv or go out; DH also took his laptop and xbox/other games consoles.

Well, things escalated; he started smashing things (his phone, a mirrored wardrobe, a glass), threw kitchen chairs over, pushed his dad, tipped over the bin in the front yard and took off for a couple of hours.

The next day, Friday, I woke up just after he left the house for school. I heard DD calling for me on the baby monitor; I got up to fetch her and opened my bedroom door. Before going off to school, DSS left an enormous and very lifelike fake spider on the landing just outside my door. I have a terrible spider phobia as he well knows. Had to go back in my bedroom and ring DH to take it away while DD kept calling for me on the monitor. Little shit.

Then he came home from school and put the tv on. I told him to turn it off. Cue round two - screaming a load of abuse at me, including telling me that I don't contribute financially and am lazy and do nothing (I am a full-time PhD student who just submitted a dissertation; I work part-time; I provide 80% of the day-to-day care for our toddler; and I do the major share of housework for a family of five with basically no support from anyone apart from my DH; DSCs have a few small chores which DSS consistently fails to do properly). He was physically intimidating me - he did not actually push or touch me, but he put his face right in mine and yelled at me so that his spit was flying into my eyes. (He is almost 6' and Dh and I are both six inches shorter.) DH was present and heard and saw all of this; he did come and step in-between us finally. Then DSS went outside and bashed a football off the walls and windows, which I had just told him off for on Thursday afternoon. Either by kicking or with the football, he knocked over all my planters and pots.

He also stole his dad's ipod (which he has since quietly left to be found and denies having taken, but due to the timing and place of its return, there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever).

Since then, he has been fairly quiet, but has simply not accepted that he did anything wrong (says "all i did was break a glass"), and refuses to just accept that he is being punished - he just keeps insisting that he should not be in any trouble, keeps asking when he can have his stuff back, and threw a hissy fit again when he was told that no, he could not watch the football tonight. For example, on Friday, he again came home from school and put the football on, and DH had to tell him again to turn it off - which brought on another round of rudeness and insolence to DH.

His exams ended on this past Friday - so he would have had no xbox/going out etc during the last week regardless; in effect, he has only been really 'punished' for this weekend. And on Friday night we lifted the TV ban long enough for him to watch a dvd with the family.) DH has already replaced his phone - on I think last Tuesday - paying for it half with Tesco vouchers and the other half as a loan to DSS which is supposed to come off his pocket money over a few weeks once he starts getting pocket money again. He has spent the weekend playing football in the yard, hanging out with DSD, and reading.

So...to make a long story short, and I am leaving out some minor transgressions and a lot of backstory; don't wish to dripfeed though...he maintains that we are being completely unfair and over-reacting. DH and I were in agreement before, but now DH is weakening. He told me tonight that he doesn't know, maybe we are being too hard on DSS. Dh and I are now not speaking to one another. DSD has butted in as well, and not been told to mind her own business. I'm disgusted with the lot of them.

Thoughts?

I'm so sorry, that sounds really shit

If you and your DP can't present a united front, then the DCs will sense it like sharks detect blood in the water ; it sounds like your DSD has already picked up on it

You know this is a DP problem, not a DSC problem - but if your DSS is as out of control as you describe and your DP is unwilling to parent him appropriately, and undermines you after you have agreed consequences together, then the future does not look good.
Would your DP go to Relate? It's a chance to get your pov across to each other without it deteriorating into a row.

Thanks, NADM.

Yeah, the kids know that DH is unhappy when he has to discipline them, and they exploit that.

I just can't comprehend how DH thinks this is even close to reasonable.

We went to Relate for over a year, which initially helped. It seemed to have done all the good it was gong to do, and the counsellor was keen for us to move on; I also felt that we'd kind of exhausted her resources! We talked about continuing to see a private counsellor, and went to two sessions, but had to concede that we really and truly cannot afford it right now (we have a major income loss coming in September that we have not yet figured out a solution to!).

Well to be fair, i think the punishment in the first place for not studying was a little too harsh, surely some relaxation should be allowed during exam time? Banning absolutely everything is not really fair. At 14, there's time enough to allow for him failing his exams and letting him deal with the consequences. Whilst I'm all for consistency and a united front, i think you parents possibly overreacted in the first place and although his reaction was excessive, that's teenagers for you. Bear in mind exams are stressful, and that sort of full-on confrontation is best avoided. Hormones are rampant at that age in boys, and my gut reaction is that if you can show understanding and reasonableness in the face of severe provocation from him, the situation will calm down sooner.
I speak as mother of 3 teenage boys - this policy has worked well with DS1, waiting to find out re DS2 ( AS results imminent) and just entering the puberty phase with DS3.
They need to be able to work out their own strategies, like how much work is needed to pass an exam, how to deal with the school's reaction if they do fail. At 14,. if he fouls up this time ( is he year 10?) he can re-take the units ( and lots of them do). If he 's not year 10, what hinges on his results? If it means he can't do the options he wanted, then that's his problem, not yours.
Finally, the issue that needs to be addressed is him intimidating you. DH needs to have a series of discussions with him around vilolence to women, and make it clear that that will not be tolerated. But in the main, I would say give the boy a breathing space, give him a chance to make his own mistakes and learn from them. Don't worry too much about the sister giving her opinion, that's to be expected, you don't have to give it too much weight, but it's probalby good if she stands up for him. i found 14-15 the most difficult age, drastic mood swings and very tempestuous, but it does pass. It also strikes me that your DSS may have had a difficult past,( where's his mum?) and could be even more insecure than most, so he may find the journey to adulthood particularly hard.
Good luck!

The punishment in the first place was for :
refusing to revise when told
lying about what he'd been given to revise (ie, denying they'd been given a list of topics)
on-going lies about his progress at school (hence finding notes from school about missed homework that he was meant to get signed and return; assignment sheets for homeworks when he had previously told DH there was no assigned work that day, etc etc)

That was before the other behaviour I have described above.

Can't see any sense, I have to say, in "giving a bit of breathing space" when faced with a kid who is lying, being violent, stealing, and is generally disrespectful and insolent.

Giving him 'breathing space' (ie, letting him make decisions he is not capable of making and have zero consequences for behaviour) has been the approach up to this point and it is clearly not working, as his behaviour, performance and attitude have just gotten worse with time.
But thank you for the reply.

Honestly ... he sounds like a little shit. I've got very little sympathy I'm afraid for the generic "typical teenager" excuse. Most teenagers push boundaries and try it on but that doesn't mean their behaviour should be accepted with a shrug. Getting right up in your face was intimidation and I'm sorry that from how you've described it, it took a while for your DH to intervene - he should have been there immediately as there is never any justification for that sort of behaviour.

As for being "too hard" .... ha ha ha ...... words fail me. Your DH is totally in the wrong here and it's small wonder SS reacts like this when he knows from past experience that daddy-dearest will almost certainly not do very much about it. HE broke the phone ... that should have been that, and up to SS to figure out a way of replacing it. It might just have made him think to have to "cope" without one until then. Your DH has just shown him that he doesn't need to show any respect for property because there's no consequences. What he should have done was tell the brat that when he'd proven he deserved pocket money once again, he could then start saving for the phone ..... or he could maybe offer to do jobs (properly) to save up that way.

I feel very sorry for you because you're being completely undermined. It does sound as if more counselling would be beneficial but understand completely how expensive it is and how sometimes that simply isn't an option. We're in the same boat, where I've often longed for some 3rd party perspective on our step issues yet it's a financial impossibility ... meanwhile our lives just continue to implode.

I don't know what the answer is .... well, I know how I'd deal with a kid like that, but obviously you need DH on side.

P.S. we were all teenagers once ourselves. I can well remember feeling how I "hated" my parents and how their seemingly petty rules were so unfair etc etc. Felt their purpose in life was to make mine as miserable as possible etc. Can also remember feeling the most intense rage at my perceived injustice of it all (in retrospect, stupid petty things) and wanting to strike out in some way ... verbally or physically ..... but you know what, for the most part, I managed to keep a leash on my feelings because I knew, without a doubt, that my punishment for being an utter cow would be severe and obviously I didn't want that. In other words, my parents' consistent parenting, and boundaries, kept me in check ..... and though I'd have never admitted it then, I think deep deep down there was a tiny part of me that knew they were acting in my best interests and imposing their "petty" rules because they cared. The main thing though, was fear of consequences ..... if my parents hadn't made it clear that there would be any I'd have probably been far far less conscious of my behaviour and attitude.

This post fills me with dread because I can predict my own SC being this way if DP doesn't stop the Disney dad parenting!
I am amazed that your DH didn't step in when DSS was intimidating you though and even more incredulous that he bought him another phone after he'd smashed it, but can see my DP doing exactly that. I wouldn't have replaced it, or bought a cheap £10 supermarket phone if he absolutely had to have one.
My DS is nearly 13 and he is already showing signs of the usual teenage stuff - eye rolling, slamming doors and general moodiness. He is taller than me already so I know that if I'm not tough with him now he will probably be able to flatten intimidate me when he is 14.
I don't know what the answer is tbh but you need to make it clear to DH and DSS that you won't tolerate being physically intimidated in your own home. That has to be a deal breaker imo.

No, it's not you being unreasonable. I would do exactly as you want to do with my own DS of the same age. I want my DS to be a decent young man, so I would do everything you are doing. It would be very important to me.

DP has recently told me if he sees DSS again, he won't discipline him for anything at all, just take him back to his Mums house.

Thanks. I should say that DH did step in there - if he didn't do it straight away I think that is because he was trying in the moment to support me and didn't want to seem to be stopping me from telling DSS off. DH was fine at the time of the argument, unfortunately it is as things have dragged on that he seems to just not have the willpower for it.

The cheap supermarket phone is what I thought DH was going to do, but then it turned into DSS getting a better phone than what he had before. I did feel that it was OK to get him the replacement if he were paying the full amount, in order for him to have some contact with his friends. I was being soft, frankly, and as it is, it turned into him not getting a cheap replacement, but a nicer phone partly paid for with our tesco vouchers. I also didn't expect (though I should have!) that having gotten a replacement phone, he would continue to be insolent and petulant, rather than seeing that he'd been given a bit of a break.

The main thing though, was fear of consequences ..... if my parents hadn't made it clear that there would be any I'd have probably been far far less conscious of my behaviour and attitude.

catsmother, that would have been the same for me, too. I did plenty of "teenage" things, and I was not a perfectly behaved kid. But I knew there were going to be consequences, and that kept me from going too far. My DSCs? No sense of fear of consequences when they do wrong.

ANd half of the time, when they are "in trouble" for something, they don't even seem to realise it!

I also didn't expect (though I should have!) that having gotten a replacement phone, he would continue to be insolent and petulant, rather than seeing that he'd been given a bit of a break.

Now, this is typical teen behaviour, they will push and push boundaries to see whether they are flexible!

But, having shown no appreciation for the break that he was given, a positive parenting response would be to confiscate the replacement phone until he can display age appropriate behaviour. We use this a lot in our house - if the DC's behave like a younger child, they get treated like one Your DH seems to be frightened of his own DC's - have you told him the damage it is doing to your respect for him?

I'm not surprised he carried on his nasty behaviour.
He had got one over on you both and saw it as a reward for being a right little shit.
My DSC had brand new Nintendo 3DSs for Easter (mine got Easter eggs ffs). They are already scratched and dirty looking because they think that if they break them Daddy will buy another one. They are sadly mistaken - as I told them last weekend and got shown with two little 'cats bum' faces!!!

It's said time and time again isn't it? Kids need boundaries, they need to know where they stand.

If your DSC don't even know where the boundaries they will keep trying to find them. If one day, the boundaries are in one place and the next time they misbehave they find the boundaries have moved or disappeared, they are going to be very confused.

If they don't know when they are "in trouble" then that's actually very sad for them.

I had these kind of problems with my SS when he lived with us. I dont know the answer I'm afraid but I do think you are in the right and your DH and definitely your SS are in the wrong. If it's any comfort I did used to get odd flashes of realisation that DH did in fact know what a little shit his son was being but denial is easier than dealing with it. Also there is imo an embarrassment factor as well in so called Disney dad parenting. As in - play it down,make out its stepmum being over dramatic/strict etc. rather than admit what a horror their offspring is being and instead pretend they're not so bad - to save face really for their child and themselves.
I'm also very with the opinion on here that the new phone was totally misguided and is in fact rewarding bad behaviour. I had this argument with DH about my SSs room which he basically trashed (not in temper like yours but by years of neglect and dirty habits) - my DH wanted to have it all done out for him - new carpets ,the lot and l managed to resist this as my stance was that as he still had no respect for his surroundings or ours , why give him all new to abuse and ruin that aswell. I said no, not until he starts picking his dirty plates/laundry up etc - only then maybe yes.
He left home in the end rather than conform to our and especially my house rules.

Do both DSD and DSS live with you permanently? Why do they not live with their mother and how long have you been with their Dad and had them with living with you?

Do both DSD and DSS live with you permanently? Why do they not live with their mother and how long have you been with their Dad and had them with living with you?

Are you asking if the DSS's living arrangements have somehow come about as a result of a traumatic incident in their past that may be contributing to his behaviour?

Do you think that DC's who don't live with their mum are generally more likely to display this kind of behaviour?

Whichever it is, it is the DP's DH's responsibility to deal with her DSS behaviour; and it is clear that he is not effectively doing so.

I am trying to establish whether this is just 'normal' stroppy teenaged behaviour (although it sounds a bit extreme) or whether there are issues that are affecting him that should be taken into account when deciding how to handle things. He sounds extremely angry and bitter about something and he seems to be reserving most of his ire and contempt for the OP.

And in answer to your question, I have no idea whether DC's who don't live with their mum are necessarily more likely to display this kind of behaviour, but I do think that DCs (especially teenaged ones) who live with a step-parent are FAR more likely to dispaly this kind of behaviour, yes.

The DSCs mother is deceased; my DH was a widower when we met. I have a 17 year-old DSD as well, and a 2 year-old DD.

He sounds extremely angry and bitter about something and he seems to be reserving most of his ire and contempt for the OP.
Actually, DSS and I have had a very good and relationship in the past; this is a relatively new. I can say with a high degree of certainty that the reason I am receiving the brunt of his ire is because I am most definitely the 'bad cop' in the present scenario, and in others. For instance, he knows that I am still angry with him about these things that have happened, whereas his father has replaced his telephone.

He is openly rude and contemptuous towards his father. But my DH is not bothered enough by that to even call him on it when it happens. It is normal practice for DSS to tell my DH that he is a loser, that he is pathetic, that his jokes are not funny...the other night at dinner he managed to fit in "I wouldn't want my kids to have your name"; "you're old"; "you're ugly"; and "your only contribution to this conversation are some jokes and they aren't even funny". He was called up on not one of those remarks.

I do agree that my stepkids need counselling. They do not wish to go, however, and my stepkids are not often asked to do things they do not feel like doing.

how long have you been with their Dad and had them with living with you?
Sorry, wasn't avoiding answering that. I've been with DH for nearly 4 years and living all together for about 19 months.

I agree mindyourown about the embarassment factor. I used to be bewildered about DH's inability to even see some of the things going on, but I do think it is all about denial. He's become very good at not noticing.

Yes I am convinced of this after years of bitter experience. Another theory I have is that sometimes they really (the disney dads) dont know how to handle it - like yours said 'Well what do you want me to do?' and I think they maybe feel a bit inadequate as the man of the house , so by not admitting or playing down there's a problem then they can hide the fact they're unable to deal with it.

Sorry meant to add my DH often used to ask me - 'Well what do you want me to do - throw him out on the street - give him a good leathering - what?' So obviously I'm gonna say no though at times I wouldnt have minded him doing both so then hubby would just shrug and it would be left again.

I could understand his predicament tbh - l mean you cant physically force a six foot strapping teenager to go to his room or ground him or physically make him clean his room or whatever and any sanctions get laughed at or ignored.

I've learnt a lot about effective consequences for teens from a USA forum frequented by military parents

A regular solution if a teen refuses to tidy/clean their room - strip it down to the minimum; bed, pillow, blanket, somewhere to hang clothes, that's it. All pictures and posters, gone. All electricals, books, entertainment, gone. All cuddlies/makeup/smellies, gone. Magazines, cards, papers; gone. Leave nothing but what they need to exist, no comfort or leisure at all - and then clearly set out how they can earn each item back

I'm also very fond of the solution for teenage door-slammers; remove their bedroom door until they earn it back

Rudeness and disrespect is countered through ignoring the DC - if they can't be polite, then dad can't taxi you to school, you can walk/bus/arrange a lift. If they are rude, there's no meal on the table for them that evening, if they are hungry, they can make their own. Once the rules are defined in advance though - there are no threats or reminders that they should watch their mouth, or adjust their attitude when they begin to lose control. Just like in real life, the teen discovers the natural consequence of their behaviour when they come to claim something they want - they may have forgotten about their behaviour the day before, but they still suffer the consequences when they are ready for Mum to drop them to the concert like he agreed!

I appreciate that these are extreme measures, and most DCs won't need them because they will know when they've pushed their luck and go out of their way to make amends.
But for those DCs who don't understand boundaries and think that house-rules apply to other people, a short, sharp boot camp experience does them the world of good.
It has to be delivered in a way that leaves the DC with no suggestion that there is room for negotiation - once the boundaries have been defined, shut down any attempt to enter into discussion.

And therein lies the problem - perhaps bootcamp is needed for DisneyDads as well?!?

I'm also very fond of the solution for teenage door-slammers; remove their bedroom door until they earn it back
Ha ha! My own dad did this. It works.

Natural consequences - that is exactly what I would like to see happening with the kids, and very much the sort of strategies that I believe in. As you say, they needn't be extreme either, if you practice natural consequences over time, then things should not reach that extreme. The three problems I keep coming up against are 1), even when we are in complete agreement in theory about what the rule is and what the consequence is, DH falls down on the implementation, almost from a lack of energy; 2), DH is so eager to keep the kids happy no matter what, that he lacks conviction even when he's telling them something; 3), the kids are easily able to turn it around so I am on the outside as the 'angry stepmother' and the three of them are still cozy buddies, even while they are supposedly "in trouble".

Yes it is horrible to feel like an unwelcome nuisance in your own home. Only in the world of a stepmother eh.