Is it just me? Appropriate response to DSS behaviour...?

[brdgrl]

Last Thursday and Friday (as in, over a week ago) we had two separate rows with DSS, who is 14.

It started over his exam revision (wouldn't do any; lied about not having materials to revise which we then found in his room along with notes from school about missed homeworks, etc). On Thursday, DH, with me present, confronted him about these things, and told him he was to spend the weekend revising for the exams he had left (he had already done some and had eight more to go), and that he was not to watch tv or go out; DH also took his laptop and xbox/other games consoles.

Well, things escalated; he started smashing things (his phone, a mirrored wardrobe, a glass), threw kitchen chairs over, pushed his dad, tipped over the bin in the front yard and took off for a couple of hours.

The next day, Friday, I woke up just after he left the house for school. I heard DD calling for me on the baby monitor; I got up to fetch her and opened my bedroom door. Before going off to school, DSS left an enormous and very lifelike fake spider on the landing just outside my door. I have a terrible spider phobia as he well knows. Had to go back in my bedroom and ring DH to take it away while DD kept calling for me on the monitor. Little shit.

Then he came home from school and put the tv on. I told him to turn it off. Cue round two - screaming a load of abuse at me, including telling me that I don't contribute financially and am lazy and do nothing (I am a full-time PhD student who just submitted a dissertation; I work part-time; I provide 80% of the day-to-day care for our toddler; and I do the major share of housework for a family of five with basically no support from anyone apart from my DH; DSCs have a few small chores which DSS consistently fails to do properly). He was physically intimidating me - he did not actually push or touch me, but he put his face right in mine and yelled at me so that his spit was flying into my eyes. (He is almost 6' and Dh and I are both six inches shorter.) DH was present and heard and saw all of this; he did come and step in-between us finally. Then DSS went outside and bashed a football off the walls and windows, which I had just told him off for on Thursday afternoon. Either by kicking or with the football, he knocked over all my planters and pots.

He also stole his dad's ipod (which he has since quietly left to be found and denies having taken, but due to the timing and place of its return, there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever).

Since then, he has been fairly quiet, but has simply not accepted that he did anything wrong (says "all i did was break a glass"), and refuses to just accept that he is being punished - he just keeps insisting that he should not be in any trouble, keeps asking when he can have his stuff back, and threw a hissy fit again when he was told that no, he could not watch the football tonight. For example, on Friday, he again came home from school and put the football on, and DH had to tell him again to turn it off - which brought on another round of rudeness and insolence to DH.

His exams ended on this past Friday - so he would have had no xbox/going out etc during the last week regardless; in effect, he has only been really 'punished' for this weekend. And on Friday night we lifted the TV ban long enough for him to watch a dvd with the family.) DH has already replaced his phone - on I think last Tuesday - paying for it half with Tesco vouchers and the other half as a loan to DSS which is supposed to come off his pocket money over a few weeks once he starts getting pocket money again. He has spent the weekend playing football in the yard, hanging out with DSD, and reading.

So...to make a long story short, and I am leaving out some minor transgressions and a lot of backstory; don't wish to dripfeed though...he maintains that we are being completely unfair and over-reacting. DH and I were in agreement before, but now DH is weakening. He told me tonight that he doesn't know, maybe we are being too hard on DSS. Dh and I are now not speaking to one another. DSD has butted in as well, and not been told to mind her own business. I'm disgusted with the lot of them.

Thoughts?

How about disengaging? You stop doing anything for the DCs unless you decide that you would like to - refer them to their Dad for anything they need or want when you would previously have done something out of obligation, for a quiet life or because you knew it would make life easier for your DP.

If your usually home at a certain time to be there for the DCs - then pop into a friends for a coffee if you fancy it. Would like your favourite meal for dinner but DSC don't like it? Their dad can make them something else or they can go hungry. Usually drop them off at school on your way to work? Take a duvet day, or leave early and stop for a Danish pastry on the way.

It is a very graphic demonstration to him of exactly how much you do for his DCs and how inconvenient life would be without your support.

I have been turning that over, NADM. It is hard to see, honestly, how to get away with it without just making my own life that much worse. Like, I do the laundry. The kids are supposed to put out the laundry baskets on the weekend, and then put the finished laundry away on Monday night when I've done it all. I usually stay up until the early hours of the morning on Monday, making sure it is all done and dried and ready for the week. The kids have to be nagged and nagged to put the baskets out, and then when they do, they just leave them by their bedroom doors for me to haul downstairs - sometimes they put the basket down and then walk straight downstairs and past the laundry room. I used to fold the laundry and leave it in nice stacks for them in the front room, but they would come downstairs, take the item they wanted, and then leave the rest there all week long. So now I take it upstairs and put it right outside their doors, and all they do is take it inside and fling it on the floor or into a drawer or god knows what. I get no thanks from them, ever, and they do nothing to make it easier. They totally take it for granted that what they need will be clean and waiting for them at the start of the achool week.

OK, so why do I keep doing it? So many reasons.

If they were left to do it themselves, they'd leave a huge mess around the machine. They'd spill soap and just leave it. They'd just leave piles of laundry about. They'd want the machine when someone else was using it, and take things out wet and leave them lying around, or they'd move things to the dryer that shouldn't be dried. My own clothes and DD's clothes would end up getting wrecked unless I made sure to take them away the instant the machine finished. They'd do none at all for weeks, or they'd wash one item at a time, based on what they decided they wanted to wear the next day. They'd do it whenever they took the notion, when they did it at all, so that I could never be assured of being able to do my laundry at a routine time again (which sorry if that sounds like I am a control freak, but I have very little time - see my life, in the OP! - and routines are essential).

In the end, someone would break the machine and I'd have nothing to wash my own or DD's clothes in.

But actually, what would probably happen before that, is that DH would do it for them. Only he'd always be too busy, and it would pile up in huge stacks all over the house. He'd buy them dozens of new school shits or pairs of socks, because they'd need clean ones to wear, and that would come from our household budget. The kids would come to him late at night, wanting a single item "urgently" the next day, and he'd drop what he was doing and wash that item for them.

So we'd end up with less time, less money, and a house that I could not bear to live in.

I saw how things were before we moved in together, and that's precisely why I took over the laundry. Dh did it for them and there was laundry everywhere; the house looked like something on the tv show hoarders anyway and the laundry didn't help. When we all moved in together to this new house, I did more than thirty loads of laundry at their old house, to make sure we weren't just bringing dirty laundry over here. At the bottom of the piles, there were clothes that had been there since DSS was a little kid. It was insane. And they had so many clothes, because they just bought more when they couldn't find something to wear.

Sorry this is so long and probably sounding very negative - but this is how it works. If I don't do it, then DH will do it, and that means he won't be available to help me with DD, or do any of the other things that need to be done around here, never mind his own work which ends up bottom of the list. He and I have almost no quality time together as a couple, and by disengaging, I can see that getting worse, rather than better.

Anyway, I didn't do their laundry last night.

Hi brdgrl this all sounds horribly hard work! Please don't apologise for sounding 'negative' (or maybe just being honest?) because that's the whole point of posting here.

I don't know what to say really, I am so useless at advice, because you've been in there so long and you think so hard about how to make it work.

As I have posted lots of times, generally I am not a fan of disengaging, it is not how I would wish to live my life. If disengaging was the only way I could get through, I would rather leave. But, I do wonder if you not doing all the things the kids ask might be a good move, at least a way to say 'I deserve some respect'. From what you post, you don't do these things because you think it is best for the kids but rather to ensure your DP doesn't do it and to ensure you have some time together. I honestly think it would be worth an experiment for you to just stop being the person who picks everything up, you could start focusing more of your time on your DD and maybe putting the onus on your DH to take responsibility for your relationship a bit?

Thing is that there are all these strategies available to deal with up the dsc but without your DPs support none of them will work effectively it will just make life harder for you.
I feel for you brdgirl.

Yes I agree Kaluki you do need DH on board or at very least not going over your head and undermining your disengagement (i.e. doing the washing for them or buying them new clothes.)

Again l had a similiar situation when my adult SS lived with us. When it was just him and his dad they were the same as your lot OP. Daddy would do all the washing and put it in the dryer even when fine weather because he worked long hours. But imbetween SS would think nothing of washing one item and tumble drying it on its own if required.

I too took over doing all the laundry for reasons above. I tried the disengaging too (if it's not in the basket by a certain time on certain days it doesnt get done ) and was met with similiar resistance from them both as you get OP - either daddy just doing it for him or just doing one item himself and leaving biros etc in the machine and it needing repairs on at least two occasions.

In the end I took the passive aggressive step of 'deciding' l wanted my washing machine in the garage/workshop which l knew SS didnt have a key to and daddy wouldnt let him as he has expensive tools etc in there (he is a builder) and SS cant be trusted to lock up properly. I also got my tumble dryer moved in there and our spare fridge freezer to enable me to keep mitts off at least some of our food when we had stocked up and 'drip feed' it into the house fridge iyswim. I also declared l was going to do all the laundry in future in my new kingdom utility room. I was careful to 'sell' it to them on the basis of making life easier for SS to 'enable' him as it were so he wouldnt be living in squalor surrounded by dirty laundry - as in 'Right all you have to do is put your dirty washing in the laundry basket' - I bought him his own and kept it just outside his room - 'and it will be returned washed and dried within one or two days at most' (I usually washed every day then).

I know it's easy to say but you've just got to outwit them if all else fails and make their current pattern of behaviour as difficult as possible by literally blocking them on a practical level from doing it. I appreciate not everybody can do what l did above and it is very PA but hey ho. I mean are there times when your DH isnt there when they would want to do their own washing (when you havent done it) and potentially trash your own clothes/washing machine ? Could you make the washing powder 'disappear' for example then put it back later and act all innocent. I used to keep a box with hardly any left in near the machine and hide my full box for example. Or set my machine for a programme that suspended the washing in water without spinning it (most modern washing machines have this facility) then when little Johnny or Daddy come along to wash one shirt little Johnny needs in one hour they cant open the washing machine without advancing it to empty and spin (usually 15 mins minimum) before the door will open.

Devious maybe but they created the (step)monster

Disengaging doesn't have to be about the DCs though - it is more usually recommended in the USA as a self-preservation technique, along with a reminder to the parent that their partner has no obligation to do things for their DSC, and are unwilling to do unless their DCs show them some common courtesy and respect.

If their Dad decides to do everything for them - that's up to him! By taking the DCs out of the equation the adults can work on their relationship that will undoubtedly need work to regain the respect lost.

Yes notadisney l agree that if daddy wants to do it all for them you need to disengage from him also and ignore. It will still have an impact at some point even if initially it could mean him wasting money on new socks etc every five minutes. I think daddy would surely get fed up of this eventually and then come cap in hand back to OP and ask her to resume laundry duties. Then she can set her conditions eg. basic respect etc.

I agree that in a situation like this disengagement would be simply about self-preservation, of saying 'enough', irrespective of whether the DP ends up running round like a blue-arsed fly after the kids or not. Ultimately brdgrl can't control her DP but can still say 'I'm not prepared to be treated this way'.

mind I'm not suggesting disengagement from a DP, that would never work!
The ultimate aim isn't about getting what you want (ie the DSC to change), it's about not being a doormat and no longer waiting on DCs who are rude and disrespectful.

I know plenty of SM who have disengaged from their DSC, and have a great relationship with their DP despite the fact that the DCs have their Daddy wrapped tightly around their little finger

Oh sorry notadisney didnt mean to agree with you over something you didnt say ! . I meant more disengage or ignore your DPs doormattishness etc as a result of you disengaging rather than disengaging from DP himself. Does that make sense ? Probably not as even l dont understand what l just said

Thanks, all.
I can definitely see the sense in disengagement, in theory. It is making it work that I have doubts about. Everything I do to make DH's life easier is, in a sense, about making my own life easier as well, as the more he does things on demand for them, the more it means I am on my own taking care of DD...the more money he wastes, the more fear I have about ending up homeless, the less time he has for his own work, the longer it takes him to finish his degree and the longer we are struggling to get by...

I also wonder how people manage to disengage over things that impact on the other children in the family. If he has to spend all of his time doing things for the older kids, because at 14 and 17 they won't lift a finger, then DD who is 2 does not get her actual needs met.

And while I can see an argument for disengaging from direct interaction with, and care for, the DSCs, when they are breaking house rules or damaging my things or making the environment unsafe for DD - what about then? With DSS, right now, it is all part of the same problem, which is basically that he thinks he is a roommate in a squat, not a child, and he simply won't take any notice of DH's (or my) authority.

I already practice 'withdrawal' in certain situations (I know this is a bit different!) - I have gotten so sick and tired of the know-it-all attitudes and the casual racism and classism that pop up in dinnertime conversation, that now when they start down that road, I just stop talking, turn my attention to DD, and let them talk around me for the rest of the meal. It is depressing, and chips away at my happiness, but I can't see the point in doing anything else, as sooner or later there would be nowhere for me to go except to say "you really haven't a clue what you are talking about, you sheltered, ignorant, less educated, less experienced, CHILD" - which would surely earn me a tick in the Evil Stepmother column. The trick is that they can say anything they want and must be given the respect and consideration one would give to an adult BUT they must also be treated as a child, so one cannot disagree too vehemently or do anything that might cause upset. So they can say something a bit racist, or factually wrong, for instance, and the rules say that I can only say things like "that's an interesting point of view! Have you considered looking at it this way instead?", then they say "no, that's wrong because I don't know what the fuck i am talking about but have made up my mind and don't care about your silly facts" and I have to smile and say "oh, you're so much cleverer than me!"

(The other day DSS was talking about how to say "i'm cold" in French. I knew and told him. He disagreed. I mildly said that I was pretty sure. He disagreed, in the particular way they have which suggests that I could not possibly know anything of value. DH spoke up and said he thought I was correct. At which point DSS said "well, that's not how we're learning it. I think there are lots of ways." How do you have a conversation with that???)

The frustrating thing is that I would actually say we were doing pretty well, compared to where we started! We do genuinely care about one another, all of us. We have seen so much change in the kids in some ways, and everyone who knows them raves about how much better they are doing. And when things are being done according to plan, they turn out well. Then we have a week like this and it just feels like it will never be Good Enough.

then they say "no, that's wrong because I don't know what the fuck i am talking about but have made up my mind and don't care about your silly facts" and I have to smile

strikethru fail there, sorry.